2. Darkleaf is like mithral because it reduces the ACP and increases the maximum dexterity.
3. 3 AC, 0 ACP, max dex 7, spellcasting failure 5%. Pretty sure it cost 775.
Note: dark leaf hide armr is still medium armor and will reduce movement normally, unlike medium armory ade of mithral.
Is Lamellar (leather) constructed from darkleaf cloth legal in PFS play?
Why wouldn't it? Its a type of leather and that's the kind of thing darkleaf was meant to be used for.
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Why wouldn't it? Its a type of leather and that's the kind of thing darkleaf was meant to be used for.
HeroLab doesn't allow it, so I just thought I'd clarify. Ultimate Equipment does say: "As such, padded armor, leather armor, studded leather armor, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf cloth (although other types of armor made of leather or hide might be possible)."
Since Lamellar (leather) isn't specifically mentioned in the list, I considered it might be one of those GM's discretion things.
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leather armor = armor made of leather.
Lamellar (leather) = armor made of leather.
You're good to go.
Fix for hero-lab. Open up the tools editor. Go to the materials tab, make a copy of darkleaf, then open the box on what armors it can be applied to. Check more boxes, give the thing a new tag, save and test. Hero-lab will work fine now.
Took me a while working on the armor pages before I realized it was hiding on the material page.
Note: dark leaf hide armr is still medium armor and will reduce movement normally, unlike medium armory ade of mithral.Indeed, mithral medium armor doesn’t give movement penalty but the character still needs the proficiency with medium armor.
Ideally you can drop the ACP to 0 so you effectively take no penalties for wearing the armor.
I also believe class abilities to ignore light armor arcane failure doesn’t work with mithral medium armor.
And I believe it totally does! Only thing mithral says isn't treated as one category lighter for is proficiency.
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Is Lamellar (leather) constructed from darkleaf cloth legal in PFS play?Why wouldn't it? Its a type of leather and that's the kind of thing darkleaf was meant to be used for.
Actually, since the list explicitly calls out a list of what armors are allowed to be made from darkleaf, only those armors are able to be made, so you cannot have things like Darkleaf Lamellar or Darkleaf Armored Coat, despite that these armors are made primarily from leather.
In fact, it seems to me that Lamellar, Leather is worded much like the Armored Coat is and has to be made out of mithral to lessen armor check.
Here is a relevant thread where I asked about Darkleaf armored coats, it has a response from a paizo employee, but admittedly the two armor types are different so I might be wrong.
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Is Lamellar (leather) constructed from darkleaf cloth legal in PFS play?Why wouldn't it? Its a type of leather and that's the kind of thing darkleaf was meant to be used for.Actually, since the list explicitly calls out a list of what armors are allowed to be made from darkleaf, only those armors are able to be made, so you cannot have things like Darkleaf Lamellar or Darkleaf Armored Coat, despite that these armors are made primarily from leather.
In fact, it seems to me that Lamellar, Leather is worded much like the Armored Coat is and has to be made out of mithral to lessen armor check.
Here is a relevant thread where I asked about Darkleaf armored coats, it has a response from a paizo employee, but admittedly the two armor types are different so I might be wrong.
(although other types of armor made of leather or hide might be possible).
That is not a very explicit statement. It leaves the door open for any type of armor made of leather.
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Why wouldn't it? Its a type of leather and that's the kind of thing darkleaf was meant to be used for.HeroLab doesn't allow it, so I just thought I'd clarify. Ultimate Equipment does say: "As such, padded armor, leather armor, studded leather armor, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf cloth (although other types of armor made of leather or hide might be possible)."
Since Lamellar (leather) isn't specifically mentioned in the list, I considered it might be one of those GM's discretion things.
That would be because HeroLab is bad, and as much as it pains me I routinely tell people at my table to step out if they are using the HeroLab sheet but do not have another sheet with them from another program. I don't know the number of times where Power Attack, among other things, isn't calculated into the attack, but the damage is.
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It specifically calls out the armors that are in the Core book. It leaves armors in other books unmentioned but covered by the "other types of armor made of leather or hide", likely because the books don't necessarily cover for each other.
It calls out the same list exactly in Ultimate Equipment, despite that Ultimate Equipment includes several other armors made of leather or hide, however, since other armor types are not listed, it would be up to your GM as to weather or not other armors are allowed to be Darkleaf Cloth, since PFS has not made any additional list, only those listed in the type are allowed by RAW.
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That would be because HeroLab is bad, and as much as it pains me I routinely tell people at my table to step out if they are using the HeroLab sheet but do not have another sheet with them from another program. I don't know the number of times where Power Attack, among other things, isn't calculated into the attack, but the damage is.Why wouldn't it? Its a type of leather and that's the kind of thing darkleaf was meant to be used for.HeroLab doesn't allow it, so I just thought I'd clarify. Ultimate Equipment does say: "As such, padded armor, leather armor, studded leather armor, and hide armor can be made out of darkleaf cloth (although other types of armor made of leather or hide might be possible)."
Since Lamellar (leather) isn't specifically mentioned in the list, I considered it might be one of those GM's discretion things.
Strangely enough, I can. Zero, in my several years of experience with HeroLab. The only time I haven't seen the penalty to attack counted in, is when it shouldn't be counted in, for the first attack when using Furious Focus.
Now, if you can document it not working right, submit a bug report.
Also, with the attitude you just rendered on the boards, you might want to consider if anyone would really want to play with you. It is very adversarial. Then again, since I use HeroLabs for my PCs, and don't use any other character sheet, I will be happy to not experience your GMing.
Okay, my trip CMB comes from X from BAB, Y from Str (Dex if using Agile Maneuvers or Weapon FInesse with a finesseable weapon), Z from weapon enhancement, A' from class bonus, B' from ... etc.
Heck, I have been known to notate these numbers in the Personal Notes section for the relevant PC...
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I don't know the number of times where Power Attack, among other things, isn't calculated into the attack, but the damage is.
I'd love to hear an example, as I use HL extensively and I find it is far more accurate than the vast majority of hand written or otherwise human calculated sheets. I've never seen it do PA wrong once. It even reduces CMB checks by the amount of the PA penalty which most players forget to do.
Back to the Darkleaf Cloth on Lamellar Leather, it has been reported and I expect it to be fixed.
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I had a Barbarian come to my table with +7 to hit and +12 to damage, at level 1. It factored in his Rage modifiers on top of STR and BAB, and didn't remove the penalty to hit from Power Attack despite adding the damage.
I had an archer who had, at level 5, +11 to attacks with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, damage bonuses, but no penalties for either attack.
I have had a rogue show up with +1 to Stealth, despite max ranks, +5 Dexterity modifier, and no armor check penalty at level 4.
This is what I Can think of off the top of my head from just the pats month. Yes, there have been more.
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I had a Barbarian come to my table with +7 to hit and +12 to damage, at level 1. It factored in his Rage modifiers on top of STR and BAB, and didn't remove the penalty to hit from Power Attack despite adding the damage.
Human barbarian with Power Attack and Furious Focus? In that case, yes, the calculation is correct.
I had an archer who had, at level 5, +11 to attacks with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, damage bonuses, but no penalties for either attack.
+5 BAB
+5 Dex+1 Weapon Focus
+1 Masterwork/+1 bow
+1 Point Blank Shot
Also, Rapid Shot gives no bonus to damage, except a second attack at the highest attack bonus, both at -2.
Was the player using a sheet showing both Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim activated, or was he playing with a printout, and forgetting to include the penalties because the sheet only included his unmodified attack?
For stuff like this, whether I was using Hero Labs or a handmade character sheet, especially since you have to account for whether Point Blank SHot is active, and cover, I use a cheat sheet I made in Excel with all the possible attack and damage modifiers listed, along with what the various combinations make my attack bonus to become.
Now that I have the HeroLab Viewer available, I am probably not going to need all those cheat sheets, especially since my pre-printed ones didn't account for things like Haste, Blessings of Fervor, Bless, Inspire Courage, Flagbearer, Prayer, etc.
Gives me a headache, and I used to be a math geek in my youth, breaking the curve most times...
I have had a rogue show up with +1 to Stealth, despite max ranks, +5 Dexterity modifier, and no armor check penalty at level 4.
This one is almost too easy. What was the PC's Strength? Carrying capacity? Encumbrance level? Remember that encubrance gives the equivalent to ACP if carrying a medium or heavy load or worse.
Did he also have the fatigued and/or exhausted markers turned on from a previous game with the PC? Therse also give penalties.
This is what I Can think of off the top of my head from just the pats month. Yes, there have been more.
Remember that, just like any other way of putting your PC to paper, there is always the possibility of user error.
Even at first level, figuring out your bonus to hit can be an exercise in math. BAB, Str or Dex mod, masterwork, charging, Bless, Inspire Courage, Aid Another, Flanking, higher ground, just for a few things off the top of my head. Forgot: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, firing into melee, cover, concealment, range increments, flat footed, regular or touch AC, Favored Enemy, Guidance, and those are just the stuff from the Core Rulebook.
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So, your mind's made regardless of the facts . . . interesting. Hopefully I don't live in your area so I'm not subjected to your close mindedness.You're just not paying attention, so I'll leave it at this:
I will not allow HeroLab sheets at my tables. Period.
Oddly enough, this same person posted the following:
I allow people to bring online character sheets with them. Use your tablet to make your character and bring it. I'm a GM, I'm not going ot demand a paper sheet from you, and i know a DM who does that in his home game.
Odd. He won't allow a printed out character sheet from HeroLab, but apparently he'll allow the same person to use, say, the iPad HeroLab Viewer to use an electronic version of their HeroLab PC character sheet.
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It specifically calls out the armors that are in the Core book. It leaves armors in other books unmentioned but covered by the "other types of armor made of leather or hide", likely because the books don't necessarily cover for each other.It calls out the same list exactly in Ultimate Equipment, despite that Ultimate Equipment includes several other armors made of leather or hide, however, since other armor types are not listed, it would be up to your GM as to weather or not other armors are allowed to be Darkleaf Cloth, since PFS has not made any additional list, only those listed in the type are allowed by RAW.
Ugh. Ultimate Equipment did not re-read or edit anything when they copied-and-pasted gear from other books into it. They didn't even catch errata that had already been issued. Of course they didn't change the list on darkleaf.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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First I'd like to start with each of these are NOT a HeroLab Problem but more than likely a user problem.
1) Level 1 Barbarian +7 X+12 damage, at level 1
2) Level 5 archer +11 to attacks with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, damage bonuses, but no penalties for either attack.
3) rogue show up with +1 to Stealth, despite max ranks, +5 Dexterity modifier, and no armor check penalty at level 4.
1) Human Level 1 Barbarian +7 to hit = 5 (STR 18+2=20) + 1 (BAB) + 2 (Rage activated by user intentionally) - 1 (Power Attack)
Greatsword = 2d6 + 13 = 10 (STR 24 from Rage activation) + 3 (Power Attack with a 2 handed weapon)So a pretty run of the mill Barbarian you see 9 out of 10 times at level 1. Or I should say I SEE.
2) Level 5 Human Ranger = +X = +5 (BAB) + 6 (DEX 18+2{Human}+1{4th}+2{Belt} = 23) +1 (+1 Bow) +1 (Competence bonus from Bracery of Archery) +1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Point Blank Shot activated) -2 (Deadly Aim) - 2 (Rapid Shot)
Again a STANDARD Ranger, one you see from pretty much every Ranger player.
3) This almost always is a result of the player still carrying their money and it is forcing them into heavy encumbrance or some other penalty applied to the skills that also apply things like ACP. I can't think of a theory that fits, but I've also never seen anything like this. So if you can send me a copy of his sheet I will figure out why it is happening.
In the end, it always comes down to people either not understanding how their Feats and Abilities work (like the fact that Point Blank Shot is only 30 feet and Rage only lasts so many rounds per level) and that their shouldn't print a sheet with those features active unless they are able to always be active.
I will not allow HeroLab sheets at my tables. Period.
As long as you are fine with knowing that your players are almost certainly either missing bonuses they should have or adding bonuses they shouldn't get due to something that would prevent it. Then you are good to go. HeroLab is much more reliable at having a solid correct sheet than I have ever seen a player accomplish. Especially for the complex characters, which almost always are people using HL.
There's a rules ambiguity (such as this one)
That is one problem with HL. They are very conservative with rulings, so often things that are generally considered to work are not allowed to work as they err on the side of blocking. For example, you can't take Elven Chain and make it a +1 Elven Chain with HL (community packs have this fixed), because they feel the named items are blocked from enchantment despite Paizo stating otherwise. So their RAW interpretations can be on the conservative side as opposed to the liberal side often.
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So, your mind's made regardless of the facts . . . interesting. Hopefully I don't live in your area so I'm not subjected to your close mindedness.You're just not paying attention, so I'll leave it at this:
I will not allow HeroLab sheets at my tables. Period.
Oddly enough, this same person posted the following:
I allow people to bring online character sheets with them. Use your tablet to make your character and bring it. I'm a GM, I'm not going ot demand a paper sheet from you, and i know a DM who does that in his home game.Odd. He won't allow a printed out character sheet from HeroLab, but apparently he'll allow the same person to use, say, the iPad HeroLab Viewer to use an electronic version of their HeroLab PC character sheet.
I Will allow them to use the character sheet they make up on, say, Excel, in order to play. Generally I go over everything beforehand to make sure they do the math correctly (I know when I make my Excel sheets I have varying amounts for Power Attack, Rapid Shot, etc. listed, including necessary penalties. My sheets are easy as heck to read, too). I generally trust someone who makes their own sheets and doesn't let a program do all the work because they have taken the time and energy to put their characters together. However, considering the amount of problems I have seen concerning HeroLab in general--and the myriad of complaints that HAVE been on these forums about it--no, I will not allow HeroLab sheets, or people to use the HeroLab viewer (though I can't actively police this part, since I won't be looking over your shoulder constantly).
I generally trust someone who makes their own sheets and doesn't let a program do all the work because they have taken the time and energy to put their characters together.
Because people don't make mistakes? I know I make plenty.
We aren't discussing darkleaf anymore are we...
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First I'd like to start with each of these are NOT a HeroLab Problem but more than likely a user problem.
1) Level 1 Barbarian +7 X+12 damage, at level 1
2) Level 5 archer +11 to attacks with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, damage bonuses, but no penalties for either attack.
3) rogue show up with +1 to Stealth, despite max ranks, +5 Dexterity modifier, and no armor check penalty at level 4.
1) Human Level 1 Barbarian +7 to hit = 5 (STR 18+2=20) + 1 (BAB) + 2 (Rage activated by user intentionally) - 1 (Power Attack)
Greatsword = 2d6 + 13 = 10 (STR 24 from Rage activation) + 3 (Power Attack with a 2 handed weapon)So a pretty run of the mill Barbarian you see 9 out of 10 times at level 1. Or I should say I SEE.
2) Level 5 Human Ranger = +X = +5 (BAB) + 6 (DEX 18+2{Human}+1{4th}+2{Belt} = 23) +1 (+1 Bow) +1 (Competence bonus from Bracery of Archery) +1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Point Blank Shot activated) -2 (Deadly Aim) - 2 (Rapid Shot)
Again a STANDARD Ranger, one you see from pretty much every Ranger player.3) This almost always is a result of the player still carrying their money and it is forcing them into heavy encumbrance or some other penalty applied to the skills that also apply things like ACP. I can't think of a theory that fits, but I've also never seen anything like this. So if you can send me a copy of his sheet I will figure out why it is happening.
In the end, it always comes down to people either not understanding how their Feats and Abilities work (like the fact that Point Blank Shot is only 30 feet and Rage only lasts so many rounds per level) and that their shouldn't print a sheet with those features active unless they are able to always be active.
I will not allow HeroLab sheets at my tables. Period.As long as you are fine with knowing that your players are almost certainly either missing bonuses they should have or adding bonuses they shouldn't get due to something that would prevent it. Then you are good to...
1.) Unfortunately, the Barbarian had 18 STR before Rage, and this was his BASE attack, not "If I am raging" attachment. This was what he came in with as his basic attack with a Falchion, so he thought that was his "to hit" all the time. 4 +2 +1 = 7 - 1 = 6 with Power Attack. Unless I am mistaken.
2.) The Archer at level 5 had +11 to attack before anything was calculated (5 BAB, +5 DEX, and +1 from MW). So even assuming Point-Blank Shot being factored in and Deadly Aim, it would be +10 total.
In both instances, +1 may not seem like a lot, but it can be especially at level 1. Normally this wouldn't be a huge issue, but I have been seeing bad math all over the place and as I said, this is from one month alone.
As for the rogue: what got me is I assumed it was calculating some massive armor check penalty from someplace, but it wasn't saying there was an encumbrance penalty or armor check penalty anywhere. What's more, it applied it literally to only Stealth, and no other penalties to Climb, Swim, Ride, or other skills that have penalties from armor calculated in as well.
MW Falchion would make that +7.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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but I have been seeing bad math all over the place and as I said, this is from one month alone.
As for the rogue ... literally to only Stealth, and no other penalties to Climb, Swim, Ride, or other skills that have penalties from armor calculated in as well.
Ok you missed my point. I'll restate.
What you think is happening with HeroLab is not happening. I play at a shop with 90% of the players using HeroLab, and I use it exclusively now for one reason:
{b}It doesn't make mistakes{/b}
At least not in very narrow and isolated cases.
The vast majority of cases come from mistakes the player is making. Did the player enable a forgotten condition such as squeezing.
HeroLab is not buggy like you believe. Maybe it was 2 years ago or so. But not in the last 2 years.
I'd trust a HeroLab sheet to be accurate in a heartbeat, and frankly I don't trust handwritten or excel sheets. If I can't figure out how they got the score, I create a new hero in HL, punch in the relevant abilities, items, and feats and compare.
So ironically we are polar opposites:
You don't trust HL but do player made sheets.
I don't trust player made sheets but will trust explicitly without question a HL sheet.
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Then you have failed, as both a GM and as a player.
I am 28. I started playing DnD during 3.0, roughly twelve years ago for me. My sheets were done by hand. I had to learn to do the math myself and come up with my figures. I didn't have HeroLab, I didn't have access to a generator other than stat-rolling generators as provided by Wizards of the Coast. I learned how to create my character.
Nowadays, people are quick to jump to a character generator, such as HeroLabs. I have had two new players who have never played before come in and provide character sheets from HeroLab. I tell them up front I won't accept them--not to be a jerk, but to see if they have figured out the fundamentals of character creation first. I'm sorry, but I simply cannot take someone to my table who has just bought the book a week before and their first character is not hand-done. Not going to happen, and I will not do so.
There have been threads of HeroLabs being broken, both in a general sense and especially with regards to Pathfinder Society (things not 'meshing' in terms of additional resources, or what-have-you). It is because of that reason--as well as my own run-ins with the program--that has led me to say that it is not valid at my tables.
I have banned the program from my tables. If you say you will not allow players to bring sheets they have done themselves, then you are banning the player. That is a fundamental flaw. People can be wrong, but so can programs try as they might to be perfect. It simply will not happen. When the program is better, I will allow it. Until that time, they need to have something showing me they have done the math. I will look it over if they would like me to.
Then you have failed, as both a GM and as a player.
That's a little harsh isn't it?
Nowadays,
Gotta' be careful, you might be turning into one of those old men who tell people their generation was the best and new kids are all lazy, or one of those guys who lumps everyone who does one thing into a single negative stereotype.
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Gotta' be careful, you might be turning into one of those old men who tell people their generation was the best and new kids are all lazy, or one of those guys who lumps everyone who does one thing into a single negative stereotype.
You have no idea. Last week there was a Marine PFC doing recruiter assistance in the mall. I found myself talking to him like I was some grizzled old Gunny. :(
As for herolab displaying where the math comes from, I recently submitted a bug report (rather minor, an ability which should have added a bonus to attack also added a bonus to damage [orcale's wood bond, should be corrected in next update]) and the dev who responded to my bug told me they are planning to roll out a new feature that will display a dialog box on mouse-over to detail the calculations and bonus sources for things like attack, damage, AC, ect. Dev said that update should roll out with the bestiary 4 release.
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As for herolab displaying where the math comes from, I recently submitted a bug report (rather minor, an ability which should have added a bonus to attack also added a bonus to damage [orcale's wood bond, should be corrected in next update]) and the dev who responded to my bug told me they are planning to roll out a new feature that will display a dialog box on mouse-over to detail the calculations and bonus sources for things like attack, damage, AC, ect. Dev said that update should roll out with the bestiary 4 release.
That is good to hear.
I like to know where all my bonuses come from and sometimes I miss one that HeroLabs does not.
There are a few places where I have to use a handmade sheet instead of HeroLabs, but for the most part, I am far more likely to make an error than the software is.
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Then you have failed, as both a GM and as a player.That's a little harsh isn't it?
Nowadays,Gotta' be careful, you might be turning into one of those old men who tell people their generation was the best and new kids are all lazy, or one of those guys who lumps everyone who does one thing into a single negative stereotype.
I am one. Still won't allow my daughters to use a calculator until they can prove they don't need one.
Grumpy old man or not, I do keep current on technology, least I turn into my parents, who barely know how to turn a computer on.
As for herolab displaying where the math comes from, I recently submitted a bug report (rather minor, an ability which should have added a bonus to attack also added a bonus to damage [orcale's wood bond, should be corrected in next update]) and the dev who responded to my bug told me they are planning to roll out a new feature that will display a dialog box on mouse-over to detail the calculations and bonus sources for things like attack, damage, AC, ect. Dev said that update should roll out with the bestiary 4 release.That is good to hear.
I like to know where all my bonuses come from and sometimes I miss one that HeroLabs does not.
There are a few places where I have to use a handmade sheet instead of HeroLabs, but for the most part, I am far more likely to make an error than the software is.
In all fairness I should say that I too make new players write c-sheet by hand. I also only use herolab to give me a rough look at characters and usually wind up handwriting them after I like the concept. It was this method that led to catching the bug I reported in the first place. (Where did this +1 to damage come from?)
Since this seems to becoming a gripe about herolab, I had an unfortunate situation where a completely new player was given access to someone's herolab and was walked through creating a character.
The resulting character had a bunch of archetypes I hadn't heard of, was wearing four-mirror armour and using chakrams, and a bunch of other noncore stuff I couldn't verify.
I was in an awkward position of being forced to either allow him to play at the table, or bar him from doing so, which would probably lose him as a player completely.
Now I'll be required to explain why he needs to rebuild his character in order to make it legal, and I'm not relishing that...
Well that´s not Herolabs fault, but that of those guys who minmaxed the new player. Using Herolab or not, i would never do something like that and only take CRB stuff for new players, especially if they don´t know a lot and own nothing. I know many people make long faces hearing they are supposed to buy something, but then....CRB is cheap. And a player who bought it will read it. A player who read it or at least looked at it, is more fun to play.
Some people are also too silly to use Herolab correctly or just don´t bother. Same people probably can´t do a clear handwritten charactersheet or all the math and stuff on that. So, there´s not really a point.
I have never seen a hero lab sheet that was 100% accurate. The program seems nice to quickly generate a character but there are so many places for little errors to creep in.
I do realize that the majority of these errors are user generated, however whether or not the error was made because hero lab was improperly programmed or because the player entered something wrong is irrelevant.
The fact is that I see many more mistakes and have to make more corrections to character that have been made in hero lab vs one made using self made spreadsheets, editable pdf, or pen and paper.
I had a Barbarian come to my table with +7 to hit and +12 to damage, at level 1. It factored in his Rage modifiers on top of STR and BAB, and didn't remove the penalty to hit from Power Attack despite adding the damage.
I had an archer who had, at level 5, +11 to attacks with Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim, damage bonuses, but no penalties for either attack.
I have had a rogue show up with +1 to Stealth, despite max ranks, +5 Dexterity modifier, and no armor check penalty at level 4.
This is what I Can think of off the top of my head from just the pats month. Yes, there have been more.
That is perfectly possible. I have made a barbarian with max strength (@ 1st level) that had +7 to hit and +13 to damage. This was after power attack. Without it it was +8 hit and +10 damage.
