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I quit reading at the point he admits he didn't read either.
Well that was pretty pointless.
"Technologically advanced" and "Heavily industrialized" are not the same thing.
Hobbits live in their surroundings, changing enough to keep themselves quite comfortable, but not destroying the environment they live in. Their houses are built INTO the land, not on top of it, and not leveling and clearing it to build their homes, for example.
The industrial revolution has not happened for the Hobbits. There are no factories, either mechanized or otherwise. Things are not mass produced, and nothing more is taken than can be replenished.
Which he'd probably know if he'd read the books, yes.
The blogger (Neal F. Litherland, who hasn't read the books) isn't the same as the guy who came up with the theory (Alex Dumitru).
Tom Bombadil will kick all your asses.
Epic Pooh for reference
Just idly passing back through the Book Threads. Haven't actually read the proffered essay yet, but I did bring my own.
Anyway, one of the things that's either in here or "Starship Stormtroopers" is Moorcock's equation of the bad guys (I don't remember which ones, actually) with labor radicals.
I can't say I ever picked up on that myself, and, alas, I don't feel like re-reading the Lord of the Rings lest I end up like my hetero life partner, just reading and re-reading Tolkien until I die.
Otoh, [Knocks on wood] I am sure I will be re-reading Tolkien again before I die, and it's something I'm definitely gonna keep an an eye out for.
Down with Middle-Earth!
Vive le Galt!
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It's probably worth noting that with one exception, all the major hobbit characters we see are among the shire's wealthy elite. Of course they have full larders. They can afford to pay whatever they need to for whatever they want, essentially in perpetuity. Completely aside Bilbo's share of the dragon horde, they surely had ample rents to supplement their family fortunes and secure for themselves a lifestyle much like that of, say, the British aristocracy.
We don't see the Shire farmers on the razor's edge of starvation, one famine away from deciding if their children are family or food, because such people simply don't matter to people of Frodo's class unless they're pet servants like Sam. Otherwise, they're just furniture. Maybe in bad years Frodo would toss a few scraps their way, but entirely to assuage his own conscience rather than strictly for their benefit. He's a big man, after all.
Which isn't far off from how the wealthy often view the less fortunate in any era.
"Wealthy elite?" Seriously?
Bilbo was described as "comfortable" and lived in a nice hobbit hole in one of the nicer parts of town, but he was not a "wealthy elite" until he came back to Hobbiton with the troll-treasure. And that didn't last all that long since he reportedly gave much of it away. Other than his home, Sting and the ring, there wasn't much mention of any other treasure in the house.
Tolkien went to great lengths to describe the hobbits as being basically hard working pre-industrial farmers, herders and merchants. He reportedly modeled the town of Hobbiton on records of the medieval period of one of the towns he spent much of his youth in.
Bilbo is rich. Sam is, quite literally, dirt poor. Frodo is essentially a foundling until Bilbo adopts him. Merry and Pippin are part of a communal family that is almost a collective or commune in some ways.
"Wealthy elite"? I'm pretty sure nobody in Hobbiton really lived in a manner to deserve such a term. Certainly Merry, Pippen, Sam and Frodo seemed to spend a great deal of time with "regular folk" sucking down suds at the local tavern. Not seeing the "wealthy elite tossing scraps to the unfortunates" in the story.
Of course I'm not looking for that either.
The Shire is based on an idealised version of Southern England, where nothing much happens, nobody is (visibly) very rich or very poor and all the inhabitants are ye merrye yeomenne, doing things in the old fashioned way. So no aristocrats, no beggars, but plenty of sturdy peasants and kindly apple-cheeked squires.
Nevertheless, you never hear of Bilbo, Frodo or the rest of the non-Gamgee hobbits doing a stroke of work, farming or otherwise, but that's not the point. It is a fantasy novel, after all, and not a sociological treatise ;)
Tom Bombadil will f**$ you up, son.
I mostly agree with Comrade Longears, but I thought there was somewhere (in one of the appendices?) where Tolkien said that even in Bilbo's time, most hobbits lived in houses and only the very poor and the very rich (maybe he didn't throw in those "very"s) lived in holes. I think Bilbo was supposed to be rich even before The Hobbit.
EDIT: Prologue to LOTR although not the veries, just "the richest and the poorest."
I mostly agree with Comrade Longears, but I thought there was somewhere (in one of the appendices?) where Tolkien said that even in Bilbo's time, most hobbits lived in houses and only the very poor and the very rich (maybe he didn't throw in those "very"s) lived in holes. I think Bilbo was supposed to be rich even before The Hobbit.
Bilbo himself wasn't rich. Tolkien described him, as I said, as "comfortable." That meant he was able to live a pleasant life and hire a gardener without having any visible means of support. But he was not "wealthy."
His grandsire who built Bag End, had been rich at one time. But by the time Bilbo was living in it, other than the house itself, he didn't have more than enough to live out his days comfortably.
That's why the Sackville-Bagginses wanted Bag End so much.
Living in a well-built "smial" was indeed a sign of status for hobbits. But I would peg Bilbo's lifestyle as more or less corresponding to what we in the West now describe as "upper middle class," not "wealthy." However, he did live in a house that would have suited a "wealthy" hobbit. If there were any such thing. Maybe the Mayor qualified.
Tom Bombadil will f&@$ you up, son: The Link
In case there isn't any crosstraffic.
... and more to the point, Merry, Pippin, Freddy Bolger and the rest of the young hobbit hoodlums Frodo hung around with were very much portrayed as hobbits of very moderate means. And they seemed to have no problem hanging around with Sam after hours in the local tavern with the rest of the yoemen.
Hardly the behavior of "wealthy elites" who toss the local peasants a "few scraps" now and then.
Oh, to be sure, Comrade Samnell is exaggerating things, humorously, I'd assume, but I guess you never can tell with him.
Although, I don't recall Merry, Pippin, or Freddy being very hoodlum-y in the books. I don't recall any bar scenes, either, except for in Bree. I do remember Brandybuck Hall being pretty described as pretty nice, though. It's been a while, though, and memories of the book sometimes blend with memories of the movie.
"Wealthy elite?" Seriously?
Yeah. Bear in mind that Bilbo himself was the grandson of the Old Took; he had one of the nicest houses in Hobbiton, and no job. His father bought wine by the case and laid it down in a dedicated wine cellar. Bilbo was a classic member of the idle rich; a few centuries later, he would be a member of Wodehouse's Drones club alongside Bingo Little and Bertie Wooster.
Bilbo is rich. Sam is, quite literally, dirt poor. Frodo is essentially a foundling until Bilbo adopts him. Merry and Pippin are part of a communal family that is almost a collective or commune in some ways.
Um, in roughly the same way that Charles, Prince of Wales, is part of a communal family.
Pippin, for example, is the son and heir of the Took and Thain, head of the largest, richest, and most powerful household in the Shire. Merry is the son and heir of the Master of Buckland. And Frodo is cousin to both of them.
"Wealthy elite"? I'm pretty sure nobody in Hobbiton really lived in a manner to deserve such a term.
Actually, I'm pretty sure they did. Did Merry, Pippin, or Frodo ever do a day's work in their life? That line even made it into the movie -- "But, Pip, you've never done a hard day's work!"
Hobbiton is a classic farming village -- except that none of the main characters we see ever actually farm.
Living in a well-built "smial" was indeed a sign of status for hobbits. But I would peg Bilbo's lifestyle as more or less corresponding to what we in the West now describe as "upper middle class," not "wealthy."
Except that he didn't work to support himself. He didn't even take in lodgers, the traditional way to eke out a living from a house that's too grand for your income. That's a "wealthy" lifestyle, not upper-middle class. He lived purely off income from rents and investments.
Man, I wish I had written that.
[Stares forlornly at the ground and kicks a rock]
He even got me on the "scion of the plutocracy isn't upper middle class," too.
Orfamay, "wealthy elite" is a different term than "wealthy". And "tossing scraps" has a connotation of Henry the Eighth.
Bilbo is rich enough to not have to work. But that is not the same as being a "wealthy elite." Not in any sense that I've ever heard the term "wealthy elite" used, especially when coupled with behavior described as "tossing scraps to the peasants."
I think we can both agree that the main hobbit characters, apart from Sam, in the books are more or less understood to be the upper class of Hobbiton, although Tolkien also made it clear that there was a definite distinction between Hobbiton wealth and Brandybuck wealth.
My point is that characterizing the hobbits in the book as hobbit versions of Paris Hilton is silly when compared to the actual way the hobbits were described as living and acting.
Down with the Tooks, Brandybucks and Bagginsses!
Vive le Galt!
My point is that characterizing the hobbits in the book as hobbit versions of Paris Hilton is silly when compared to the actual way the hobbits were described as living and acting.
But that's because the hobbits are better behaved than Paris Hilton, not because they don't have that kind of money. My understanding is that Conrad Hilton was actually a rather nice guy.
One of the major points of LotR is the idealization of the preindustrial "squirearchy" of southern England, where the idle rich were indeed plutocrats, but they were nice about it, tended to share the values of the middle class, and only flaunted their wealth in acceptable ways (like not working). Bilbo is a classic 18th century country squire, who probably would have been an MP and local justice if such things existed. He obviously cared very deeply for his tenant farmers (as witnessed by the contents of his will).
But don't confuse that with not being plutocrats.
Skimmed through Fellowship and pretty quickly found this from the beginning of Chapter 5.
I don't have anything to do, so I might as well type it out:
"Long ago Gorhendan Oldbuck, head of the Oldbuck family, one of the oldest in the Marish or indeed in the Shire, had crossed the river, which was the original boundary of the land eastwards. He built (and excavated) Brandy Hall, changed his name to Brandybuck, and settled down to become master of what was virtually a small independent country. His family grew and grew, and after his days continued to grow, until Brandy Hall occupied the whole of the low hill, and had three large front-doors, many side-doors, and about a hundred windows. The Brandybucks and their numerous dependents then began to burrow, and later to build, all round about. That was the origin of Buckland, a thickly inhabited strip between the river and the Old Forest, a sort of colony from the Shire. Its chief village was Buckleberry, clustering in the banks and slopes behind Brandy Hall.
"The people in the Marish were friendly with the Bucklanders, and the authority of the Master of the Hall (as the head of the Brandybuck family was called) was still acknowledged by the farmers between Stock and Rushey. But most of the folk of the old Shire regarded the Bucklanders as peculiar, half foreigners as it were. Though, as a matter of fact, they were not very different from the other hobbits of the Four Farthings. Except in one point: they were fond of boats, and some of them could swim."
Sounds like aristocracy to me.
In my absence, others have made the points I would have made. It appears the only difference is over whether one of the idle rich connected to the best and most influential families of the nation counts as "wealthy elite."
Since that's not a difference of substance, I don't think there's much to argue about. In the spirit of such threads, I submit instead that the oppressed goblins of the shire should rise up in an international socialist revolution and burn the rotters in their holes. Goblins do it with fire! Fiiiiiiiiire!
Congratulations Anklebiter, you got to another one...
Hee hee!
Comrade Samnell has long sympathized with the cause of the oppressed workers, peasants and goblins before I even came on these boards, but I do believe that is the first time he has called for revolutionary goblin conflagrations.
Vive le Galt!
Living in a well-built "smial" was indeed a sign of status for hobbits. But I would peg Bilbo's lifestyle as more or less corresponding to what we in the West now describe as "upper middle class," not "wealthy."Except that he didn't work to support himself. He didn't even take in lodgers, the traditional way to eke out a living from a house that's too grand for your income. That's a "wealthy" lifestyle, not upper-middle class. He lived purely off income from rents and investments.
OMFG, lodgers! Here's to paying guests!
Now, if I can just get the guest suites full before Lady Dice sees her attorney . . .
It's probably worth noting that with one exception, all the major hobbit characters we see are among the shire's wealthy elite. Of course they have full larders. They can afford to pay whatever they need to for whatever they want, essentially in perpetuity. Completely aside Bilbo's share of the dragon horde, they surely had ample rents to supplement their family fortunes and secure for themselves a lifestyle much like that of, say, the British aristocracy.
We don't see the Shire farmers on the razor's edge of starvation, one famine away from deciding if their children are family or food, because such people simply don't matter to people of Frodo's class unless they're pet servants like Sam. Otherwise, they're just furniture. Maybe in bad years Frodo would toss a few scraps their way, but entirely to assuage his own conscience rather than strictly for their benefit. He's a big man, after all.
Which isn't far off from how the wealthy often view the less fortunate in any era.
What about pet servants now?
[Smacks Dicey]