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Once upon a time there was an Orc Scarred Witch Doctor called Lupo, who took Gorda, a human, as his wife - from this relationship came Marsuina, a half-orc eager to follow on her father's footsteps as the shaman of the tribe. However, as the developer gods had decreed "there shalt not be any half-breed choosing racial archetypes from their parent races", she was barred by the stup... I mean, strange forces that guide the universe from finding her path among the Scarred Witch Doctors which guided her clan for generations; this saddened her greatly, and she began to consider herself a worthless being for not being a pureblood, even though half-orcs are equal, if not more valuable, members of orcish society due to their improved mental faculties. Feeling the universe had disgraced her, she went into self-exile for many years before deciding to settle among the human cities; there, she met a blind, homeless man named Keane, a human who was cast away from society due to not being able to be a productive member. Soon the two would realize how much they had in common and fall in love, the product of this union being a city raised half-orc called Foca.
Foca, being born to the lowest of the lowest in human society decided to take a stand to change how things worked, and became a Redeemer Paladin; after years of crusading against discrimination and prejudice, he married a human woman named Magda, and they soon had lots of children, so thin blooded they were considered humans with an orcish racial heritage.
One of their daughters, named Burra. had hoped to follow on her father's footsteps as a Redeemer, but due to the rules imposed by the developer gods, she could not do so. After months of depression, her paternal grandmother came to her and told her her own story. Impressed by the feats of Tier 1 deliciousness Scarred Witch Doctors were capable of, she vied to become one of them, until her grandmother tried to dispel her hopes by saying the developers had decreed that half-breeds could not follow on their parent's footsteps. She replied by saying: "I'm no longer a half-breed, nana, I am a human who happens to have orcish blood in her veins, and who will use it to achieve the status of a goddess upon men... in more ways than one" - and so she became exactly that, even though she had absolutely no exposure to the orcish traditions, the gods had decreed that "Humans with the feat of having a racial heritage should qualify for archetypes that race has".
So being a Half-Orc, who is at most 2 generations separated from their Orcish ancestors, does not qualify you for their classes; while being a Human with an Orcish Racial Heritage who is 3 or more generations separated from Orcs does? What gives?
Do you realize how stupid this is?
Sources:
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any related to race.
Half-Elf or Half-Orc: Can a character of either of these races select human racial archetypes (such as from Advanced Race Guide?
No. While half-elves and half-orcs do count as humans "for any effect related to race", racial class archetypes do count as an "."—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/15/13
Racial Heritage: Can a human with this feat take levels in an archetype that requires you to be of a specific race?
Yes, the Racial Heritage feat allows you to qualify for archetypes that have the chosen race as a requirement, assuming you still meet all of the other requirements to take levels in the archetype.—Jason Bulmahn, 07/27/12
Bottom Line:
The Racial Heritage and Half-Orc/Half-Elf FAQs are explictly contradicting each other on what "effects relating to race" represent when it comes to archetypes. Why can humans with a Racial Heritage pick archetypes of that race whereas Half-Elves and Half-Orcs cannot, seeing as the Orc/Elf Blood trait and the Racial Heritage feat do the same thing mechanically?
The answer to your dilemma is to have half elfs and half orcs select feats that have a human requirement. IRC the devs have stated that they can take feats that have a human prereq?
So they can take the Racial Heritage feat, exactly like the human, and then take the archetypes. They just cannot take it free.
I think you just made my day with this post.
The answer to your dilemma is to have half elfs and half orcs select feats that have a human requirement. IRC the devs have stated that they can take feats that have a human prereq?
So they can take the Racial Heritage feat, exactly like the human, and then take the archetypes. They just cannot take it free.
Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Orc Blood: Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Basically, they do the same thing mechanically, there is no point having both of them.
But our dear developers seem to have differing opinions on this matter.[...] racial class archetypes do count as an "effect."
Racial Heritage: Can a human with this feat take levels in an archetype that requires you to be of a specific race?
Yes, the Racial Heritage feat allows you to qualify for archetypes that have the chosen race as a requirement, assuming you still meet all of the other requirements to take levels in the archetype.
Basically, the developers have created themselves a paradox.
I want them to rectify it, otherwise my autistic mind can fry at any time.I think you just made my day with this post.
Thank you.
The crux of the matter is that the two FAQs are mutually exclusive; they cannot both be applied logically and sensibly. Something needs to be changed; either repeal the FAQ on half-breeds, repeal the FAQ on Racial Heritage, or insert explicit exceptions into the rules. And, personally, I think the best option is to repeal the half-breed FAQ.
Precisely.
Furthermore, if the FAQ on Racial Heritage is repealed, then the feat is utterly , since it will only bring disadvantages to the table.And if this is not rectified then the rules are contradicting themselves.
I more clearly see your point.
They need to explixitly define 'effects' and clarify the racial uses of that word into specific categories that apply equally across the board.
The contradiction you list is a clear case to me or the right hand not knowing what the left is doing.
Obviously for home games this can be simply fixed but I assume you want a ruling for PFS.
For those who don't like the direct contradiction, you need to hit the FAQ button on the original post, or nobody is going to notice this thread, more than likely.
For those who don't like the direct contradiction, you need to hit the FAQ button on the original post, or nobody is going to notice this thread, more than likely.
I thought last time someone pointed this out it said "answered in FAQs"?
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I think this explains why we will never be able to get some real immigration reform, even though we all know it is the right thing to do.
For those who don't like the direct contradiction, you need to hit the FAQ button on the original post, or nobody is going to notice this thread, more than likely.I thought last time someone pointed this out it said "answered in FAQs"?
I have re-read the FAQs 3 times today before starting this thread, as well as used the search feature to look for the same issue (all of the other threads are from at least 7 months ago), and I've seen nothing of the sort.
The God Developers seem to be silent on this matter, unfortunatelI think this explains why we will never be able to get some real immigration reform, even though we all know it is the right thing to do.
I fail to see how the relevance of this in relation to the problems at hand.
The God Developers seem to be silent on this matter, unfortunately.
Give them more time and don't refer to them as god developers maybe? Its not the first time its been brought up.
The God Developers seem to be silent on this matter, unfortunately.Give them more time and don't refer to them as god developers maybe? Its not the first time its been brought up.
Which is exactly why we need an answer now more than ever. They have seen this before, yet remained silent about it. We can't expect them to give an answer out of the blue, we have to press them for it.
People cannot be complacent. If they something to change, they cannot just wait for it to come, they have to take a stand.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the real issue at work here is not that the half-races and racial heritage feat are at odds (they are, it's just less relevant than my other point), but rather that the developers seem unable to distinguish race from culture.
My Elf can be adopted by half-orcs and grow tusks to get a bite attack, but no matter what I do, I can't learn how to prank people like a gnome?
The vast majority of racial archetypes are not physical, they are cultural, and they should never be restricted in the first place.
The vast majority of racial archetypes are not physical, they are cultural, and they should never be restricted in the first place.
Perhaps a better solution would be to require the 'adopted' trait to take a racial archetype, even for half-elf or half-orcs. With the 'adopted' representing that they were not raised by their human parent (the default assumption).
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I think this explains why we will never be able to get some real immigration reform, even though we all know it is the right thing to do.
"Them orcs's useless. They come o'er them hills, raid'er villages, eat'er crops, and then rap'er women an' leave. Them lil' half-orcs they leave behind ain't nuthin' but anchor babies, lookin' to count as havin' the Racial Heritage (Human) feat. Well, I ain't gonna stand fer it. Not in my day."
The vast majority of racial archetypes are not physical, they are cultural, and they should never be restricted in the first place.Perhaps a better solution would be to require the 'adopted' trait to take a racial archetype, even for half-elf or half-orcs. With the 'adopted' representing that they were not raised by their human parent (the default assumption).
Likely that would help. Its also just weird that being adopted can make you grow tusk. Personally I think racial restrictions are just a mess. Some racial archetypes have absolutely nothing to do with a race, like a half elves bonded witch.
Perhaps a better solution would be to require the 'adopted' trait to take a racial archetype, even for half-elf or half-orcs. With the 'adopted' representing that they were not raised by their human parent (the default assumption).
The vast majority of racial archetypes are not physical, they are cultural, and they should never be restricted in the first place.
Indeed, that would make the most sense. But then why can't half-breeds with no "Adopted" trait take a human archetype, if they were presumably raised by humans?
Extra fluff:Sarom is an orphan, and she does not know her true race due to the fact that she is a Scion of Humanity Aasimar, who are undistinguishable from humans at first glance. Growing as a street urchin was harsh enough that she decided to become a pirate Buccaneer, but oh! The stup... strange forces of the universe do not allow that, because she is not human! Even though NONE of her superiors/instructors even suspect she isn't human, she cannot become like them, because the gods have apparently applied anti-miscegenation laws to the archetypes of the world!
Again, do you realize how stupid this is?
First, I hit the FAQ button because I do think this is an issue that should be readdressed.
Second, I think if I were on the design team and read an FAQ question that basically called me stupid, I'd probably mark it as answered in the FAQ and go on about my business. You get more flies with honey, and all that.
Third, unless you're really worried about this for PFS, house rules work just fine.
I'm not calling the God Developers stupid, in fact, they are far from it for making this game and deconstructing the basic d20 mechanics.
What I am calling stupid are the inconsistencies on the FAQs they published.
Bravo, sir. Bravo.
You guys can't read the words accurately:
Blood from 1/2 Orc or 1/2 Elf says Effect.
Racial Heritage is Effects.
They said effects is enough, but effect is not.
You guys can't read the words accurately:
Blood from 1/2 Orc or 1/2 Elf says Effect.Racial Heritage is Effects.
They said effects is enough, but effect is not.
You obviously haven't read the fluff nor the FAQs on the OP.
So being a Half-Orc, who is at most 2 generations separated from their Orcish ancestors, does not qualify you for their classes; while being a Human with an Orcish Racial Heritage who is 3 or more generations separated from Orcs does? What gives?
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I am starting to think that all this bickering between players is somehow part of Jason Bulmahn's plan to keep his throne as Gamer Tyrant of the World. ;-)
You obviously haven't read the fluff nor the FAQs on the OP.
For shame.
When you use the word “not,” the structure “not A or B” is correct. You’d have to say, “He is not interested in math or science”; “He is not interested in math nor science” won’t work. Likewise, “She didn’t speak slowly or clearly” has a better ring to it than “She didn’t speak slowly nor clearly.”From Here.
Biscuits!
You'd think I, as an English teacher, would have known this by now. Unfortunately, I didn't, shame on me.Thank you for enlightening me.
[No, this post is not sarcastic]
I am starting to think that all this bickering between players is somehow part of Jason Bulmahn's plan to keep his throne as Gamer Tyrant of the World. ;-)
Beg your pardon?
right, it's: "either/or", "neither/nor", "not/or".
Generally I follow this.
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Stay classy, San Diego.
Stay classy, San Diego.
I don't get it.
What is your official ruling here, Lord of the God Developers?... Or did you come here just to troll?
By the way, who is higher in the Hierarchy of the Unthinkable Natural Laws of the Universe of the Finders of Paths: The SKaR, Jay-Jay Cobs or Mr. Bull-Man?
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Maintaining your obviously belligerent and bad attitude is not the best way to make anyone want to answer your questions.
Stay classy, San Diego.I don't get it.
What is your official ruling here, Lord of the God Developers?... Or did you come here just to troll?
Considering i have seen you behave quite rudely in multiple threads now, i cant help but wonder if that isnt infact your prerogative.
Maintaining your obviously belligerent and bad attitude is not the best way to make anyone want to answer your questions.
Others would like to know the answer, too.
A lot of posters on these messageboards wonder why there are those two FAQs which seem to contradict each others. That doesn't seem to be Paizo's style of handling things.
Yes, I've seen it in the FAQ queue.
Belligerent?
Well, I'm not being belligerent, and my bad attitude is purely borne of your own interpretation. If you knew me, you'd know that I act like this to everyone, whether online or IRL.
It's very common for neurotypical people to misrepresent what I actually mean - for all I might seem to be a hateful rager, I really bear no one any ill will. Indeed, my own floral metaphors and weird mannerisms are not meant to be mockful - they are the only way my own (admittingly unfit) mind is able to express what I feel.
Considering i have seen you behave quite rudely in multiple threads now, i cant help but wonder if that isnt infact your prerogative.
It is not, for all I might seem to be trolling, my apparent rudeness is borne of the fact that I lack the social graces that people like you have.
By the way, SKaR, may I call you the Man of Cats?
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Loub,
"I act this way to everyone" doesn't excuse your behavior.
If it's common for people to misrepresent what you actually mean, then the problem is you, not the people you're talking to.
Admitting that you lack social graces is not an excuse to continue lacking social graces.
Yes, I've seen it in the FAQ queue.
Oh Lord of Cats, if you have seen that in the FAQ queue, isn't it your duty to answer our humble prayers for an answer? Is it too much to ask for the fog that obscures the FAQs be lifted? Or do you first have to commune with the other Men of Eukarya, notably the Lord of Cobs and the Lord of Bulls?
Yet another example of what I'm talking about.
Yes, I've seen it in the FAQ queue.Oh Lord of Cats, if you have seen that in the FAQ queue, isn't it your duty to answer our humble prayers for an answer? Is it too much to ask for the fog that obscures the FAQs be lifted? Or do you first have to commune with the other Men of Eukarya, notably the Lord of Cobs and the Lord of Bulls?
I really think it is a good idea if every further answer to this comes from the whole team. We want it sorted out. A quick shot answer from one (whoever he might be) would not be beneficial. So let us just try to be patient some more.
I really think it is a good idea if every further answer to this comes from the whole team. We want it sorted out. A quick shot answer from one (whoever he might be) would not be beneficial. So let us just try to be patient some more.Yes, I've seen it in the FAQ queue.Oh Lord of Cats, if you have seen that in the FAQ queue, isn't it your duty to answer our humble prayers for an answer? Is it too much to ask for the fog that obscures the FAQs be lifted? Or do you first have to commune with the other Men of Eukarya, notably the Lord of Cobs and the Lord of Bulls?
Hasn't that change already taken place? I recall an announcement, blog post, or thread like that...
Hasn't that change already taken place? I recall an announcement, blog post, or thread like that...I really think it is a good idea if every further answer to this comes from the whole team. We want it sorted out. A quick shot answer from one (whoever he might be) would not be beneficial. So let us just try to be patient some more.Yes, I've seen it in the FAQ queue.Oh Lord of Cats, if you have seen that in the FAQ queue, isn't it your duty to answer our humble prayers for an answer? Is it too much to ask for the fog that obscures the FAQs be lifted? Or do you first have to commune with the other Men of Eukarya, notably the Lord of Cobs and the Lord of Bulls?
I was referring to the plea for an immediate answer.
Note that there is already a thread on this topic, that thread's author (Cheapy) even says, "Keep the vitriol to a minimum please, and please hit the shiny FAQ button," and that thread has 44 FAQ-flags, so this thread is redundant and snarky.
Edit: Fixed the URL, it didn't like not having the http:// at the front...
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Loub - you're embarrassing the rest of us who would like the question answered. And in case you don't know: GenCon starts this week, and perhaps prepping for the biggest event of the year with multiple releases in a different city trumps answering a corner-case question that can already be handled by the GM - which is why we have GMs, by the way.
Sean - sorry, we're not all like that.
I don't think you've been acting any better lately, SKR. I respect you and your decisions, but you've been equally rude as well.
A little thin-skinned and prickly, maybe, but rude as the OP? Not even close.