My gm thinks you need to take the feat more than once in order to
Quick Draw different weapons, and my build is going to focus on switching between styles of weapons to adapt..
this would make me need to take it 3 times to be able to do what i want.
is there anything there that really means its to one weapon or is it supposed to work with any weapon?
Nothing in that feat makes any mention or implication of being restricted to a specific weapon.
Nothing in that feat makes any mention or implication of being restricted to a specific weapon.
thats what i told him but he things this
Benefit: You can draw "a" weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
means that its limited to only one weapon...
If it was limited to one weapon it would state that, as it does with weapon focus, along with the caveat that the feat could be taken more than once, its effects don't stack, etc. etc.
If it was limited to one weapon it would state that, as it does with weapon focus, along with the caveat that the feat could be taken more than once, its effects don't stack, etc. etc.
he wont listen to that
he still thinks that its only for one weapon and pulled an example
you can draw a longsword yes, but how would you quickdraw a hungamunga with just one feat.
He's reading too much into that "a". All other feats dealing with weapons make specific mention if they require taking the feat for each specific weapon. Note for instance the wording in the feat description of Martial Weapon Proficiency. Bottom line though is if he is your GM and it's a home campaign you can but state your opinion and then deal with his decision as best you can.
Interestingly enough you don't even need to be proficient with the weapon you are quick-drawing (which seems odd to me but *shrug*).
i made an agreement with him
he now accepts any weapon you're proficient with.
now that fixes the whole argument all together.
My gm thinks you need to take the feat more than once in order to
Quick Draw different weapons, and my build is going to focus on switching between styles of weapons to adapt..this would make me need to take it 3 times to be able to do what i want.
is there anything there that really means its to one weapon or is it supposed to work with any weapon?
Your GM is wrong. Nothing short of rule 0 can make Quick draw work like that.
Furthermore, you can't take Quick draw multiple times.
The official rules, including the rules for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, allow you to quickdraw any weapon with one feat. If it did restrict you to one weapon, you would only be able to take the feat once because it doesn't contain a rule allowing you to take it more than once. However, it does not. If he decides to nerf the feat, he can do so, but he needs to own it and say, "I think that quickdraw is overpowered and I am house-ruling it to suck."
The official rules, including the rules for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, allow you to quickdraw any weapon with one feat. If it did restrict you to one weapon, you would only be able to take the feat once because it doesn't contain a rule allowing you to take it more than once. However, it does not. If he decides to nerf the feat, he can do so, but he needs to own it and say, "I think that quickdraw is overpowered and I am house-ruling it to suck."
yeah i just met in the middle ground
he will allow any weapon you're proficient with.
The official rules, including the rules for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, allow you to quickdraw any weapon with one feat. If it did restrict you to one weapon, you would only be able to take the feat once because it doesn't contain a rule allowing you to take it more than once. However, it does not. If he decides to nerf the feat, he can do so, but he needs to own it and say, "I think that quickdraw is overpowered and I am house-ruling it to suck."yeah i just met in the middle ground
he will allow any weapon you're proficient with.
He's still wrong. His compromise is just making up more rules. You can do that as a GM but you should be aware of it.
He's still wrong. His compromise is just making up more rules. You can do that as a GM but you should be aware of it.
yeah it was a flat out rule zero and he even said that.
but at least its better than needing to take it like 3 times to use your preferred weapons
If you take a look at the two feats side-by-side for wording, the difference is a little more clear. Bolded the salient points.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
You will notice that it explicitly states that you must choose a single weapon for Weapon Focus, but this phrase is missing in Quick Draw. Weapon Focus also states that you can take the feat multiple times, choosing a different weapon each time. (This is standard on all feats like this, eg. Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical). Again, Quick Draw makes no mention of it. These all imply that Quick Draw is not a feat that affects a single weapon, but works every time you draw a weapon.
Also, it wouldn't make much sense to only allow you to quickdraw a single weapon but also make full attacks with thrown weapons. If the intention of the feat was to allow only a single weapon, the wording would have included a "If a thrown weapon is chosen" caveat.
Annddd... ninja'd like crazy. Glad you got it worked out. I'd say that only allowing it with weapons you are proficient with is not a big deal, as if you are wielding a weapon with non-proficiency penalties, losing quickdraw too is not your biggest problem.
The official rules, including the rules for Pathfinder Society Organized Play, allow you to quickdraw any weapon with one feat. If it did restrict you to one weapon, you would only be able to take the feat once because it doesn't contain a rule allowing you to take it more than once. However, it does not. If he decides to nerf the feat, he can do so, but he needs to own it and say, "I think that quickdraw is overpowered and I am house-ruling it to suck."yeah i just met in the middle ground
he will allow any weapon you're proficient with.
Well, that's reasonable, as you're unlikely to be carrying around any weapon you're not proficient with.
GM is on a mild power trip, trying to understand all the rules, while his players only have to master subsets of the rules.
When I first GM'd I made a lot of unintentional house rules.
I'm perplexed that anyone would pick quickdraw as a feat to hate on or go rule zero on as a GM. Does he really dislike full attacks or something? Strongly dislike switch hitter builds or 'golf cart' fighters?
i think he doesn't want anyone to be a "Throw everything" build
where they have a-lot of different weapons and chucking it at a ridiculous speed.
quick draw and throw anything seem to go hand and hand with that.
How is a throw anything build scarier than an archer? Its not like such a build can outDPR an archer, and the archer has way better range and item economy.
i don't know really.
i find it funny personally a guy who just throws all his stuff and then throws his friends stuff and all that jazz.
but either-way. i don't really understand it much.
I'm perplexed that anyone would pick quickdraw as a feat to hate on or go rule zero on as a GM. Does he really dislike full attacks or something? Strongly dislike switch hitter builds or 'golf cart' fighters?i think he doesn't want anyone to be a "Throw everything" build
where they have a-lot of different weapons and chucking it at a ridiculous speed.
quick draw and throw anything seem to go hand and hand with that.
Well...yeah, they do go together, but it's not even remotely close to overpowered (like somebody else said, a standard archer blows this out of the water without trying). Me, I say that if somebody wants that trick, let 'em have it - no point nerfing that which doesn't need nerfing.
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Let him look at any creature stats with Quick Draw.
There is no selected weapon for Quick Draw.
This is true of 3.0, and 3.5:
Quick Draw [General]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1 or higher.
Benefit: The character can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move-equivalent action.
Quick Draw [General]
Prerequisite:Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit:You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal:
Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Special:
A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats.
If it was limited to one weapon it would state that, as it does with weapon focus, along with the caveat that the feat could be taken more than once, its effects don't stack, etc. etc.he wont listen to that
he still thinks that its only for one weapon and pulled an example
you can draw a longsword yes, but how would you quickdraw a hungamunga with just one feat.
Your DM is a putz.
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Just ask this:
Are you okay with the possibility, that sometimes, you will be wrong?
Then ask:
Are you willing to accept the possibility, that in this one case, you could be wrong?
Also, if you feel you must, start a thread in the Rules Forum.
If you are truly lucky, then you might get Dev response, and you can point him to the thread.
If your DM reads it ultra literally, the first weapon you draw that would have been a move action becomes a free action. The second weapon drawn is a move action (assuming you did not move & have a BAB). You still have a standard and swift/immediate action for the round.
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Assuming that this DM is decent overall and you have fun gaming with him, I'd let it slide to be honest. He's already pretty much given in, since rarely is anyone going to be carrying around weapons they're not proficient with, as someone else noted.
Pick your battles. Don't go to war over Quick Draw when you've got what you want anyway. Wait until he house rules something that really messes up your game.
Also, if he's relatively new to DMing he may just be getting the hang of things, as Marthkus suggested. Sometimes when we're starting out we make some unnecessary house rules as we're getting the feel of Rule 0. If you want to keep him enthused about DMing, try not to bust his balls about it unless you really feel it's absolutely necessary.
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He already made a compromise, Kazaan, that gives the player what he wants.
Tbh if a player refused to let it go after I'd made a ruling, even if he thought I was wrong, we'd have a bigger problem than one feat. I consider myself a Rules Lawyer. I enjoy system mastery and frequent boards like this one to constantly improve it. But once my DM makes a ruling, that's it, regardless of whether or not I think he's wrong RAW.
Refusing to let go of an issue after the DM has ruled is the absolute worst expression of rules-lawyering.
The absolute worst expression of rules lawyering is IMO, a player trying to twist the RAW to gain unreasonable advantage.
In this case the OP just wants the feat to work the way it's meant to. So it's not even rules lawyering. It won't be a one time thing either, it's something that will plague the player and his character throughout his career.
Here's the PRD:
Quick Draw (Combat)
You can draw weapons faster than most.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
I bolded the part your GM needs to explain. Is he really going to say that characters cannot draw weapons that they are not proficient with? Perhaps they are magically stuck in the scabbard with non-proficiency glue?
Sarcasm and snarkiness don't win arguments, but they sure are satisfying.
A question in the same vein, if you are two weapon fighting, can you use quick draw to get an off hand attack or does TWF only apply to melee weapons? I am building a fighter who specializes in throwing axes. I know it is not an optimal build but it should still be useful if he can throw two axes and then QuickDraw two more to either throw the next round or melee.
I meant to say, an off hand attack for ranged items.
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Never sail a compromised vessel, never drive a compromised car, never live in a compromised building, and never accept a compromised rule. The GM is entirely in error here by claiming...
I'm at a loss. I think you and I approach gaming in entirely different ways. I've given the OP my advice. I think I'm going to back out of our exchange. I just can't see any common ground between us on our approaches to gaming and gaming groups...
If he's relatively new and insisting that he's right without question on something that's, frankly, not misunderstood in the least by the rest of us... that don't bode well for his future prospects as a GM. Don't reinforce this kind of behavior; if you challenge him with not only clear rules text and forum support and he still turns it down or "meets you half way" (which is total BS, btw), insisting that he's right regardless of his inexperience, then GMing is not for him. He may want to GM... but he's got no talent for it and he's adequately demonstrating that he will not put the effort into developing said talent. Nip this problem in the bud before it gets out of hand; he should let someone else GM because he's just not cut out for it. Don't be an enabler and reinforce bad behavior.Assuming that this DM is decent overall and you have fun gaming with him, I'd let it slide to be honest. He's already pretty much given in, since rarely is anyone going to be carrying around weapons they're not proficient with, as someone else noted.
Pick your battles. Don't go to war over Quick Draw when you've got what you want anyway. Wait until he house rules something that really messes up your game.
Also, if he's relatively new to DMing he may just be getting the hang of things, as Marthkus suggested. Sometimes when we're starting out we make some unnecessary house rules as we're getting the feel of Rule 0. If you want to keep him enthused about DMing, try not to bust his balls about it unless you really feel it's absolutely necessary.
He isnt that new, and he is a great gm ...i really do enjoy his style of gaming
I also found where the confusion came from
The samurai gets a class ability called weapon expertise
Either way this is the only time he was like this so far.