One of my players/GM thinks that ninjas are op
My ninja is level 6 and here is the most damage he can do:
+three chances of catching leprosy+3 con damage
Now, this is only if he does the following:
Uses Flurry of stars ninja trick
Uses Ki charge on each shuriken
Throws 3 Viriduim shuriken
poisons each shuriken with sasson leaf residue
gets a sneak attack
gets a full round action
enemy fails 3 DC 16 fort saves
enemy fails 3 DC 16 ref saves
This costs about 500 gold to do btw
Ninja's aren't OP. They have a lower to hit/iteratives, your burning Ki like crazy(ki charge is a standard action right, no iteratives?), and your depending on the foe to be hit and fail saves constantly with what you just described.
Also, leprosy stats. look at the onset and frequency. Are you going to hope they die in the jungle without medical help or something?
Type disease, contact, inhaled, or injury; Save Fortitude DC 12 negates, Fortitude DC 20 to avoid effects
Onset 2d4 weeks; Frequency 1/week
Effect 1d2 Cha damage; Cure 2 consecutive saves
Your GM is wrong. :)
The leprosy is just in case i die, I leave them a special present :P
anyway, it would cost 4 ki to do that, and like i said, poison isn't cheap.
anyway, it would cost 4 ki to do that, and like i said, poison isn't cheap.
Can't use ki charge with a full attack... so it would be one star for one ki or a full attack for 3 stars for one ki.
I didn't mean full round attack, i meant as in he doesn't move and then do all of that, or do you mean I can't use ki charge and flurry of stars in one round?
The later.
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Flurry of Stars (Ex): A ninja with this ability can expend 1 ki point from her ki pool as a swift action before she makes a full-attack attack with shuriken. During that attack, she can throw two additional shuriken at her highest attack bonus, but all of her shuriken attacks are made at a –2 penalty, including the two extra attacks.
Ki Charge (Su): A ninja with this trick can invest a portion of her ki into a single thrown weapon, such as a shuriken, and throw it as a standard action. The thrown weapon explodes on impact in a 5-foot burst, dealing 1d6 points of fire damage plus 1d6 points of fire damage for every four levels of the ninja above 2nd, to a maximum 4d6 at 18th level. Creatures caught in the blast receive a Reflex save to halve the damage. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the ninja’s level + the ninja’s Charisma modifier. If the thrown weapon hits a creature, that creature takes a –2 penalty on the saving throw. If the thrown weapon misses, treat it as a thrown splash weapon. Using this ability expends 1 ki point from her ki pool.
I imagine you are using vanish trick for invisbility to get your sneak attack yes?
Vanishing Trick (Su): As a swift action, the ninja can disappear for 1 round per level. This ability functions as invisibility. Using this ability uses up 1 ki point.
Invisibility only lasts through your first attack too after that you lose the sneak attack. Finally you can't flank with ranged attacks so... yeah you have issues.
Also how many Ki points do you think you have? Cause you are eating at least 3 a round at the rate you are going.
Anything is broken when you ignore action economy and the rules.
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This isn't an OP ninja. You get an OP ninja by having a turtlefolk ninja that TWFs with, sais, katanas, nunchaku, or a quarterstaff and succeeds at murdering a cheese shreder and kung-fu enthusiasts in pajamas.
Seriously though, you can't ki charge and flurry of stars in one round, and you won't get sneak attack all the time or get the poison all the time. AND even if you could, you would burn through so much Ki you would need to fight with 15-20 wrywood weapons to get back enough to fight all day. Good luck with that. I disagree with your GM.
I have 8 ki and I do have vanishing trick, good observation.
also, I didn't know there was such an item that could do that.
What weapon has that much crit range btw?
What weapon has that much crit range btw?
18-20 weapon with keen or improved critical.
An OP ninja is the one I somehow managed to build for my home game. At level 6 I'm swinging at +10 for 1d10+10 and I can use my 6 ki points to either vanish or get an extra attack.
Still not OP, IMHO...
Ninja's definately aren't OP. Far, far from it. It's not until level 10 or 12 that they come into their own.
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If anything, Ninjas are underpowered.
They are better than Rogues, though...
My GM mostly thinks it's op because he says that is like a class that is basically a rouge and monk smashed together
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My GM mostly thinks it's op because he says that is like a class that is basically a rouge and monk smashed together
So, he thinks that if you smash 2 underpowered classes together, you get an overpowered class? Somehow, I'm not seeing this. Also, it doesn't seem very monkish at all. unless you rely on unarmed strike in melee. It seems more like a ninja archer that throws weapons.
One thing i do find op is how much stealth rouges and ninjas can get, right now my ninja has 24 stealth :P
I didn't feel like maximizing stealth, since I already had 22 dex 0.0
My GM mostly thinks it's op because he says that is like a class that is basically a rouge and monk smashed together
So he's confused them for a red mantis assassin? Which makes the spelling error that much funnier...
All in fun man so no worries on it.
But yeah the ninja alternate class isn't really that powerful, just more so than the rogue.
Also something is hardly OP if it outshines the weakest two classes in the game.
One thing i do find op is how much stealth rouges and ninjas can get, right now my ninja has 24 stealth :P
They don't have inherently more stealth than any other class. You know that right? At best you can turn invisible for a few rounds or have a small situational bonus when not moving or by burning a ki point for a single round. A wizard on the other hand cast invisibility on himself and gets a +20 for minutes/level... or anyone with a potion of the stuff.
Yeah stealth is easy to pump, alchemist do it better than most but the mages across the board tend to do stealth better than rogues.
what weapon do you think I should get keen on? It must be able to have some wyroot on it
Are we changing what OP stands for now, or is this thread just lazy?
OP usually stands for "Original Post" or "Original Poster."
Changing abbreviations and such suddenly and in titles of threads should be verboten. (Especially by new people.) We need a handbook or something.
what weapon do you think I should get keen on? It must be able to have some wyroot on it
Most wooden hafted weapons are 20 if I remember correctly. That said, most ninjas uses Wakazashi for the crit range if dual wielding. Nodachi is pretty cool for 2 handed I think. Neither of those sound wooden though.
OP usually stands for "Original Post" or "Original Poster."
Dude, its stood for overpowered in a lot of places. No ones changing the meaning of anything.
My GM mostly thinks it's op because he says that is like a class that is basically a rouge and monk smashed together
But of course it's actually just a rogue. If you purposefully build them close to each other, they are actually quite indistinguishable, except that ninja trades leather armor for no armor, and ninja can do a slightly better full attack, at a cost. No armor is generally a disadvantage.
If you purposefully build them close to each other, they are actually quite indistinguishable,
I thought if you build them together you get a swordsage?
If anything, Ninjas are underpowered.
They are better than Rogues, though...
This. I wouldn't change the ninja, but I would give the rogue a little more.
This. I wouldn't change the ninja, but I would give the rogue a little more.If anything, Ninjas are underpowered.
They are better than Rogues, though...
I would buff them both.
I'd start by fusing them into a single class with the features of both and give them a 2nd good save... Improving Rogue/Ninja talents better and making them scale with level would be nice too. Last but not least, I'd give them a way to boost their attacks. Every class has some ability to increase their to hit, even the ones with full BAB. Rogues and Ninjas and ninjas are the only ones who have nothing to help... Well, ninjas at least have Vanishing trick to help, but it burns too much Ki too fast.
Are we changing what OP stands for now, or is this thread just lazy?
OP usually stands for "Original Post" or "Original Poster."
Changing abbreviations and such suddenly and in titles of threads should be verboten. (Especially by new people.) We need a handbook or something.
Seriously? You read the thread title and thought it was about Ninja's being the Original Poster, and you got upset when it wasn't?
:p
They're are a ridiculously easy class to kill. They suffer from GM lashing out at the only low AC target in range. That's why I like them more at level 10 with Invis Blade.
They're not worth hassle beyond the thematics before L10. The thematics are are hella cool. You don't do great damage until 12-ish. If you're TWF you miss a lot early - are screwed by DR later. ST Ninja's have their own issues - like missing out on a sneak attack.
I love the idea of Ninja. It's everything else that makes me cringe.
Get a +1 keen kama or siangham made of wyroot. They are wooden weapons, and are finessable. should cost you about 9,302 gp for one ki point, 10,302 for 2 points, and 12,302 for 3.
Keen is a +1 enchantment bonus,and wyroot adds +1000 for 1 ki, 2000 for 2 ki, and 4000 for 3 ki, so how'd you calculate your prices?
a wooden Wakazashi, Katana, or Tachi is called Boken
it is identical to it's parent weapon, but deals bludgeoning damage, instead of slashing or piercing, not RAW, but a good houserule since wooden practice swords do exist.
there is your Wyrwood 18-20x2 weapon
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I'll disagree Lumiere on the premise that the reasoning behind the sword's crit range is the fact that it's a sharp blade... something the boken has a critical lack of (yes of course the pun is intended).
When you get right down to it the boken is a club by a different name.
One thing i do find op is how much stealth rouges and ninjas can get, right now my ninja has 24 stealth :P
Not really, 24 is no big deal.
Not sure how you got that build either, seems like a LOT of points, and apparently you got over max hp too.
To be honest I think for that many points and funkiness you seem to have built a pretty sub par damage dealer.
22 Dex? and 10 Str?
...ummm.
No.
When you get right down to it the boken is a club by a different name.
And a light club at that!
A Boken is nowhere near as nasty as say a baseball bat, which is much more like a club. A Boken =/= Wakazashi, Katana, or Tachi apart from MAYBE size and general weight.
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Terbutje is a 19-20 crit range. It's a fragile weapon, but I think it loses the fragile quality once you make it masterwork (or magic, can't remember which).
This is true. However
1.)Ninja's are non-proficient in the Terbutje.2.)He probably is a weapons finesse character and needs light weapons to reliably hit. Am I right Darvan?
Terbutje is a 19-20 crit range. It's a fragile weapon, but I think it loses the fragile quality once you make it masterwork (or magic, can't remember which).This is true. However
1.)Ninja's are non-proficient in the Terbutje.
2.)He probably is a weapons finesse character and needs light weapons to reliably hit. Am I right Darvan?
Yep
To the best of my knowledge people use(d) bokken instead of sharp blades in training specifically because bokken are less lethal than swords.
Making a clean stat translation between a steel sword and a wooden sword seems... Strange.
Making a clean stat translation between a steel sword and a wooden sword seems... Strange.
A wizard did it.
Anyways... yeah, wooden weapons are almost always 20/x2 or in the least have a low range like any other blunt weapon. Still not OP yet!
That's not what you said when I posted his full level 12 build in your Build Thread #3, lol.An OP ninja is the one I somehow managed to build for my home game. At level 6 I'm swinging at +10 for 1d10+10 and I can use my 6 ki points to either vanish or get an extra attack.Still not OP, IMHO...
I said a Ninja is OP? You sure?
Gotta check this out...
*checks build thread*
Is it the Angel-Blooded Aasimar Ninja? Because I said it was a nice build, but I never once I said it was OP.
It's that build but even better.
Doesn't mean its OP.
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Terbutje is a 19-20 crit range. It's a fragile weapon, but I think it loses the fragile quality once you make it masterwork (or magic, can't remember which).This is true. However
1.)Ninja's are non-proficient in the Terbutje.
2.)He probably is a weapons finesse character and needs light weapons to reliably hit. Am I right Darvan?
I know. I was thinking it's the only expanded crit range weapon that works with Wyroot, but I think the Dan Bong would work also, which can be finessed.
"These short, blunt sticks are held in the hands to enhance unarmed martial techniques."
He'd have to blow a feat on proficiency, but if the goal is to get a high crit threat wyroot weapon, it might be worth it. (Probably not, though).
As far as the character, and ninjas in general, being over powered, far from it. At eighth level, my TWF ninja with one agile fighting fan +1 and one masterwork fighting fan can do:
With a flank: +12/(+12)/+7/(+7)/+12(Ki Attack) for 1d4+7+4d6/1d4+4d6/1d4+7+4d6/1d4+4d6/1d4+7+4d6
Or on average: 2.5+7+15+2.5+15+2.5+7+15+2/5+15+2/5+7+15=108.5 damage IF she hits with all five attacks, and by 8th level that's a very big if.
Depending on the creature, her chances to hit can be helped by using Two-Weapon Feint in place of the first main hand attack, giving her:
With feint, but no flank: (+10)/+5/+(5)/+10(Ki Attack) for
1d4+4d6+1d4+7+4d6+1d4+4d6+1d4+7+4d6
Or on average 84 damage but with a better chance to hit IF the creature relies on dex for AC.
Those numbers only start to get into the territory that a two-handed fighting martial class does, with probably closer to +20 to hit at 8th level, or a Magus with a keen scimitar and an intensified shocking grasp. My character isn't optimized for damage, so you could swap in two agile or keen wakizashis and I'm sure the damage potential would go up significantly, but I guess the point is, it's not like it's ever going to vastly exceed what other classes can do. It's a fight to keep pace.
EDITED: Actually, that Two-Weapon Feint would have to assume a flank, too, since she won't have Improved Two-Weapon Feint until 9th. So only the first attack would be a sneak attack after the feint. So add +2 to hit to all of those. Even with that, I've fought things with a 35AC in tier 7-8 and only hit because I a) stopped two-weapon fighting, b) had a flank, c) had Heroism, and d) spent 2 Ki to use Forgotten Trick to pick up Weapon Training to give her a total of +17 to hit on a single attack (or two with a Ki attack). All so I could hit on an 18.