
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Hero Lab expansions contain only the OGL material which is free to use by anyone. Hero Lab makes it convenient. d20frsrd makes it convenient. Paizo PRD makes it convenient, but only for their hard cover books.
The Archives of Nethys makes it really convenient.
See the Open Road symbol next to a bunch of stuff on the site? That means its PFS legal.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Hero Lab expansions contain only the OGL material which is free to use by anyone. Hero Lab makes it convenient. d20frsrd makes it convenient. Paizo PRD makes it convenient, but only for their hard cover books.
Well, HeroLab also uses the proper names of items/abilities from the softcover books which is Paizo's IP (hence the license they have). For example, HeroLab can use the name "Dawnflower Dervish" to describe the archetypes, whereas d20pfsrd cannot anymore.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Lormyr wrote:I can see why it would be very difficult to take issue with this situation when you are handed all PDFs for free.Just in case anyone reads this as saying all VOs get every PDF for free; that is not the case. The way I get 'free' PDFs for my rulebooks, Player Companions, etc. is just the way anybody else could; I subscribe to that product line. To get the PDF for a hardcopy product that I purchased before I became a subscriber to any particular product line I have to buy it, just like every other player.
I think it came up in the context of a VOs (maybe only VCs?) recieving a certain number of free pdfs of scenarios. (the person was a local organizer but not a VO and mentioned that he supports paizo by buying scenarios for GMs in the area to run, and Mike pointed out that there was no VC for that area and the person should apply as he would be a strong candidate and would receive scenarios for free.)
I suspect this got misinterpreted and overgeneralized.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Speaking for myself, no amount of free scenarios or PDFs will keep me from contributing to the company that does so much to put out such high quality resources. I spend over $100 a month on subscriptions to Paizo products, not to mention all the accessories I purchase for games I run.
GMs and VOs are far more likely to have the higher investment when compared to most players. Because most of us feel like we have to own everything in order to stay on top of the new builds and changes. And usually that is the case. Especially when it comes to players who forget to bring their resources to a game. :)

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

See the Open Road symbol next to a bunch of stuff on the site? That means its PFS legal.
But only if you have the proper source material in your possession.
So, on to another note: I like the suggestion that has been made about doing things similarly to the Pathfinder Tales books. It would be reasonably trivial to create a sheet that a GM (etc) could sign off on as a proof of ownership. The player would still be required to provide a photocopy of the relevant pages of the book, but perhaps not carry all of the book itself.
I think this would work, as the campaign leadership already leans on the GMs/V-Os/Organizers for most of its rules enforcement. Could there be opportunity for abuse? Probably, but people that would abuse this are already finding ways to abuse the system.
I'll wait and see what the campaign leadership comes up with after GenCon, as I am sure they'll be talking about it in their "ample spare time" while at the Con. I trust them to do the right thing (and am very happy with v5 of the GtPSOP!).

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

So, on to another note: I like the suggestion that has been made about doing things similarly to the Pathfinder Tales books. It would be reasonably trivial to create a sheet that a GM (etc) could sign off on as a proof of ownership. The player would still be required to provide a photocopy of the relevant pages of the book, but perhaps not carry all of the book itself.
I think this would work, as the campaign leadership already leans on the GMs/V-Os/Organizers for most of its rules enforcement. Could there be opportunity for abuse? Probably, but people that would abuse this are already finding ways to abuse the system.
I'll wait and see what the campaign leadership comes up with after GenCon, as I am sure they'll be talking about it in their "ample spare time" while at the Con. I trust them to do the right thing (and am very happy with v5 of the GtPSOP!).
I too like this suggestion, and believe it could serve as a reasonably hassle-free way of both rules/product legality enforcement, while still allowing hardback owners a very courteous convenience like those who own PDFs.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Maybe there is a way to kill two birds with one stone. Paizo really wants retailers to register on the site. I'm not sure if they are issued a 'retailer' number as PFS players are issued PFS numbers but maybe there's a way to list all the legal resources with a space to record the retailer number as well as the GM info (PFS # and initials). Then it's not just VOs asking the stores to register but also the players. I dunno, just something off the top of my head.
Also was it NOG or someone else that canceled their subscriptions because of this? Don't you already have watermarked PDFs of all the books anyway?

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

So, do I understand that the idea is: a bunch of us borrow a friend's copy of Ultimate Combat, for an afternoon; each of us shows it to a GM, each gets a sign-off, and then we can all photocopy pages out of it without limit?
I don't see how that protects Paizo's IP.
I would just like to point out that some of us do have integrity.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

So, do I understand that the idea is: a bunch of us borrow a friend's copy of Ultimate Combat, for an afternoon; each of us shows it to a GM, each gets a sign-off, and then we can all photocopy pages out of it without limit?
I don't see how that protects Paizo's IP.
Ok, perhaps an addendum to fix this issue would be to have the player getting the sign-off add his or her PFS number inside the front cover, written in permanent ink. Then, the book could only be used for a single individual?
There would still be the "family use" clause to deal with, but I think it is still manageable.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Ok, perhaps an addendum to fix this issue would be to have the player getting the sign-off add his or her PFS number inside the front cover, written in permanent ink. Then, the book could only be used for a single individual?
There would still be the "family use" clause to deal with, but I think it is still manageable.
I has been my experience that most gamer's already sign their names on the inside cover, so adding your PFS number to that should cause little issue I would hope?

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I would just like to point out that some of us do have integrity.
Heck, I went and repurchased almost all of my hardcovers as PDFs... mostly because I got tired of lugging the dead trees around.
And, FYI - I am actually spending much more at my FLGSs these days... in the form of minis, snacks and beverages, etc. This is after years of buying everything online at steep discounts (and not bothering with other things). Of course, this is partially because before January of this year I wasn't participating in PFS, but now that I am, I feel that it is important to support the stores.
In fact, it is organized play of all games that I feel has caused the return of gaming stores... there was a time locally that all of the stores (save one) were dying... or dead. This is no longer the case, I am happy to say.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Lormyr wrote:
I would just like to point out that some of us do have integrity.Heck, I went and repurchased almost all of my hardcovers as PDFs... mostly because I got tired of lugging the dead trees around.
And, FYI - I am actually spending much more at my FLGSs these days... in the form of minis, snacks and beverages, etc. This is after years of buying everything online at steep discounts (and not bothering with other things). Of course, this is partially because before January of this year I wasn't participating in PFS, but now that I am, I feel that it is important to support the stores.
In fact, it is organized play of all games that I feel has caused the return of gaming stores... there was a time locally that all of the stores (save one) were dying... or dead. This is no longer the case, I am happy to say.
I also like to support our local stores, and try to buy from them instead of amazon and such as often as finances allow. All of my Pathfinder products except scenarios are from stores.
I appreciate your ease in and ability to pick up the PDFs. If I wasn't loaded to the brim with hard backs and had the resources to simply switch over to PDFs, I'd likely be considerably less vocal on this issue. I am confident a balance can be reached on this matter, though.
And if it turns out I am wrong, and the powers that be refuse to budge, I will attempt to sell my hardbacks online in effort to do a flat to PDF exchange. I sincerely hope it does not come to that, however.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

As far as the 'lugging all the books around' issue, I think the proof-of-purchase idea is interesting. It could be a spinoff of how the Pathfinder Adventures novels are handled; bring in the book ONCE, get a GM to officially note on a record sheet that you own the item, and from then on you can just bring the proof-of-purchase sheet to games.
If that's not sufficient (since GMs can't be expected to have every sourcebook memorized, after all), maybe bring the proof-of-purchase along with a printout or photocopy of the relevant page for the GM's reference. It's worth considering.
While that seems perfectly ideal in theory, the other side of that is is the player that doesn't feel the entire rule applies to them and all they have to bring is the proof of purchase. Then I as the GM have to deal with a player being upset that I don't know the obscure "shiney" from page 93 of book X that he wants to use, and since he doesn't have a printout of the information I'm not allowing him to use said "shiney". I as the GM then have to deal with a upset player because he thinks he followed enough of the rule... we're back to the same thing we're dealing with now.
I see it as simple... if you want to use said "shiney" then you need to be ready, willing and able to show the GM official documentation that explains the "shiney". Without the official documentation I can't properly adjudicate how to work with the "shiney" and I'm not going to allow it at my table ... despite it being PFS legal.
Until Mike changes the ruling, it is what it is and has always been. If that means a player has to limit what he uses for his character until then so be it. If that means a player has to go out and spend the $20 on a rolling cart and lug it around (and yes I did that for two years)then so be it.
I say this as someone that has had to deal with this issue at tables many times. I also say this as someone that has had to deal with limiting how many resources I was using for a character due to carrying capacity many many times.

![]() ![]() ![]() |

While that seems perfectly ideal in theory, the other side of that is is the player that doesn't feel the entire rule applies to them and all they have to bring is the proof of purchase. Then I as the GM have to deal with a player being upset that I don't know the obscure "shiney" from page 93 of book X that he wants to use, and since he doesn't have a printout of the information I'm not allowing him to use said "shiney". I as the GM then have to deal with a upset player because he thinks he followed enough of the rule... we're back to the same thing we're dealing with now.
Any proof-of-purchase method should only be used to prove purchase, it should not absolve the player from having to bring the necessary paperwork, it should just mean that a photocopy is an acceptable replacement for the physical book (that was shown to be signed and PFS-numbered at some point).

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |

I think people would benefit more from spending 5 PP on a porter to carry their books for them. For some this might mean having kids of your own just to carry your books. For others, I'm sure some kids down at the local orphanage could be rented for the day (assuming some Pathfinders don't come along and burn it down first).

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:While that seems perfectly ideal in theory, the other side of that is is the player that doesn't feel the entire rule applies to them and all they have to bring is the proof of purchase. Then I as the GM have to deal with a player being upset that I don't know the obscure "shiney" from page 93 of book X that he wants to use, and since he doesn't have a printout of the information I'm not allowing him to use said "shiney". I as the GM then have to deal with a upset player because he thinks he followed enough of the rule... we're back to the same thing we're dealing with now.Any proof-of-purchase method should only be used to prove purchase, it should not absolve the player from having to bring the necessary paperwork, it should just mean that a photocopy is an acceptable replacement for the physical book (that was shown to be signed and PFS-numbered at some point).
This is what I'm getting at... we can theory-craft all we want .. but in reality, there are always going to be players that do not feel that the entire letter of the rule applies to them and that proof of purchase alone should be good enough.
No matter what is decided, there are always going to be those that feel the GM should be responsible for bringing everything to the table and all they have to show up with is the single character sheet and <sometimes> dice.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

I think people would benefit more from spending 5 PP on a porter to carry their books for them. For some this might mean having kids of your own just to carry your books. For others, I'm sure some kids down at the local orphanage could be rented for the day (assuming some Pathfinders don't come along and burn it down first).
If I rent a kid, does that mean I have to feed them? Cause that just eats into my gaming monies O_O

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Kyle Baird wrote:I think people would benefit more from spending 5 PP on a porter to carry their books for them. For some this might mean having kids of your own just to carry your books. For others, I'm sure some kids down at the local orphanage could be rented for the day (assuming some Pathfinders don't come along and burn it down first).If I rent a kid, does that mean I have to feed them? Cause that just eats into my gaming monies O_O
No, I assume the Prestige Points spent for the child rental would cover trail rations and a waterskin. Maybe even some rope or manacles.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:No, I assume the Prestige Points spent for the child rental would cover trail rations and a waterskin. Maybe even some rope or manacles.Kyle Baird wrote:I think people would benefit more from spending 5 PP on a porter to carry their books for them. For some this might mean having kids of your own just to carry your books. For others, I'm sure some kids down at the local orphanage could be rented for the day (assuming some Pathfinders don't come along and burn it down first).If I rent a kid, does that mean I have to feed them? Cause that just eats into my gaming monies O_O
ooooo the possibilities then hehe

![]() ![]() ![]() |

brock, no the other one... wrote:Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:While that seems perfectly ideal in theory, the other side of that is is the player that doesn't feel the entire rule applies to them and all they have to bring is the proof of purchase. Then I as the GM have to deal with a player being upset that I don't know the obscure "shiney" from page 93 of book X that he wants to use, and since he doesn't have a printout of the information I'm not allowing him to use said "shiney". I as the GM then have to deal with a upset player because he thinks he followed enough of the rule... we're back to the same thing we're dealing with now.Any proof-of-purchase method should only be used to prove purchase, it should not absolve the player from having to bring the necessary paperwork, it should just mean that a photocopy is an acceptable replacement for the physical book (that was shown to be signed and PFS-numbered at some point).
This is what I'm getting at... we can theory-craft all we want .. but in reality, there are always going to be players that do not feel that the entire letter of the rule applies to them and that proof of purchase alone should be good enough.
No matter what is decided, there are always going to be those that feel the GM should be responsible for bringing everything to the table and all they have to show up with is the single character sheet and <sometimes> dice.
True, I just don't want the fact that some people are jerks to scupper an improvement just because they will continue being jerks. If we can find a way to allow people to use photocopies without incrementing the universal jerkishness quotient, then I'd like it to happen.

![]() ![]() ![]() |

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:No, I assume the Prestige Points spent for the child rental would cover trail rations and a waterskin. Maybe even some rope or manacles.Kyle Baird wrote:I think people would benefit more from spending 5 PP on a porter to carry their books for them. For some this might mean having kids of your own just to carry your books. For others, I'm sure some kids down at the local orphanage could be rented for the day (assuming some Pathfinders don't come along and burn it down first).If I rent a kid, does that mean I have to feed them? Cause that just eats into my gaming monies O_O
Yeah, you've got to keep an eye on those rental kids. All those rough-and-tumble years growing up in the orphanage makes them as tough and wily as molten steel...

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:True, I just don't want the fact that some people are jerks to scupper an improvement just because they will continue being jerks. If we can find a way to allow people to use photocopies without incrementing the universal jerkishness quotient, then I'd like it to happen.brock, no the other one... wrote:Purple Fluffy CatBunnyGnome wrote:While that seems perfectly ideal in theory, the other side of that is is the player that doesn't feel the entire rule applies to them and all they have to bring is the proof of purchase. Then I as the GM have to deal with a player being upset that I don't know the obscure "shiney" from page 93 of book X that he wants to use, and since he doesn't have a printout of the information I'm not allowing him to use said "shiney". I as the GM then have to deal with a upset player because he thinks he followed enough of the rule... we're back to the same thing we're dealing with now.Any proof-of-purchase method should only be used to prove purchase, it should not absolve the player from having to bring the necessary paperwork, it should just mean that a photocopy is an acceptable replacement for the physical book (that was shown to be signed and PFS-numbered at some point).
This is what I'm getting at... we can theory-craft all we want .. but in reality, there are always going to be players that do not feel that the entire letter of the rule applies to them and that proof of purchase alone should be good enough.
No matter what is decided, there are always going to be those that feel the GM should be responsible for bringing everything to the table and all they have to show up with is the single character sheet and <sometimes> dice.
I know that Mike and co will be as fair across the boards as they can be (and for the most part always have been); but no system is perfect enough, it's all about finding the best answer not the perfect one. I hope that something can be crafted so that it works for the 98% I really do.

![]() |

RainyDayNinja wrote:Yeah, you've got to keep an eye on those rental kids. All those rough-and-tumble years growing up in the orphanage makes them as tough and wily as molten steel...I'm pretty sure you and I are the only ones who have seen that movie. :/
And here, I was figuring the rental kids were just coming from Auntie Baltwin's place.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Seth Gipson wrote:See the Open Road symbol next to a bunch of stuff on the site? That means its PFS legal.But only if you have the proper source material in your possession.
I never said you didnt have to. But even if you dont have it in your possession, that doesnt change whether or not the feat/trait/spell/etc is PFS legal or not.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

brock, no the other one... wrote:If we can find a way to allow people to use photocopies without incrementing the universal jerkishness quotient, then I'd like it to happen.I thought these two items were directly proportional.
If that has been your primary experience, then that is a shame. Allow me to offer to correct it for you. Next time you find yourself in the greater Columbus area of Ohio, some of my (previous) photocopy using friends would be delighted to host an adventure for you. You're guaranteed to laugh, have fun, and even get fed!

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Jiggy wrote:And here, I was figuring the rental kids were just coming from Auntie Baltwin's place.RainyDayNinja wrote:Yeah, you've got to keep an eye on those rental kids. All those rough-and-tumble years growing up in the orphanage makes them as tough and wily as molten steel...I'm pretty sure you and I are the only ones who have seen that movie. :/
They'll only be PFS-legal until around December of this year.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Kyle Baird wrote:If that has been your primary experience, then that is a shame. Allow me to offer to correct it for you. Next time you find yourself in the greater Columbus area of Ohio, some of my (previous) photocopy using friends would be delighted to host an adventure for you. You're guaranteed to laugh, have fun, and even get fed!brock, no the other one... wrote:If we can find a way to allow people to use photocopies without incrementing the universal jerkishness quotient, then I'd like it to happen.I thought these two items were directly proportional.
That explains so much.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Lormyr wrote:If that has been your primary experience, then that is a shame. Allow me to offer to correct it for you. Next time you find yourself in the greater Columbus area of Ohio, some of my (previous) photocopy using friends would be delighted to host an adventure for you. You're guaranteed to laugh, have fun, and even get fed!That explains so much.
** spoiler omitted **
Gasp! The fiend reveals his treachery at last!
Thisn' here intronet thread ain't big nuf' fer'in the boff of us, I reck'n...*spits something awful smelling into a bucket with a resounding "TING!"*

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Lormyr wrote:Kyle Baird wrote:If that has been your primary experience, then that is a shame. Allow me to offer to correct it for you. Next time you find yourself in the greater Columbus area of Ohio, some of my (previous) photocopy using friends would be delighted to host an adventure for you. You're guaranteed to laugh, have fun, and even get fed!brock, no the other one... wrote:If we can find a way to allow people to use photocopies without incrementing the universal jerkishness quotient, then I'd like it to happen.I thought these two items were directly proportional.That explains so much.
** spoiler omitted **
Dude, I had such respect for you. You just sailed from a high lofty perch into a bottomless bucket of slime and filth better known as "that team up north."
My heart is broken.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Dude, I had such respect for you. You just sailed from a high lofty perch into a bottomless bucket of slime and filth better known as "that team up north."
My heart is broken.
Just position yourself, bro. I'll just move around to flank here, and you let him know what we think of his precious blue!
*hands off his +1 animal bane club* (hopefully that reference gets caught :p)

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Chad Newman wrote:Dude, I had such respect for you. You just sailed from a high lofty perch into a bottomless bucket of slime and filth better known as "that team up north."
My heart is broken.
Just position yourself, bro. I'll just move around to flank here, and you let him know what we think of his precious blue!
*hands off his +1 animal bane club* (hopefully that reference gets caught :p)
If I follow the reference, I imagine you're hoping Kyle doesn't have a +1 dichromatic seed bane greataxe, yes?

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Lormyr wrote:If I follow the reference, I imagine you're hoping Kyle doesn't have a +1 dichromatic seed bane greataxe, yes?Chad Newman wrote:Dude, I had such respect for you. You just sailed from a high lofty perch into a bottomless bucket of slime and filth better known as "that team up north."
My heart is broken.
Just position yourself, bro. I'll just move around to flank here, and you let him know what we think of his precious blue!
*hands off his +1 animal bane club* (hopefully that reference gets caught :p)
Well played, my friend, well played! The pannel also would have accepted plant bane. ;)

![]() |

Also was it NOG or someone else that canceled their subscriptions because of this? Don't you already have watermarked PDFs of all the books anyway?
Was mostly out of this as I had said my piece, but since you asked I will respond.
I have pdf's for all of the books I had gotten while I had subscriptions. This does not cover books bought at the bookstore, used in lots from people getting out of the hobby, as scratch and dent off of Paizo's site, or at Paizocon.
I was not making a threat (as was alluded to a few posts above) I simply realized that with the price Paizo sets their PDF's at, and the quantity of books that I was ordering simply for the fluff 'n' lore (I love the Golarion setting) that it would be far wiser for me to pick and choose and not bother at all with paper copies (at 30% less to boot). Since I have no personal incentive to buy paper books as I am not interested in lugging them around, and getting the digital copies a week early isn't enough to justify the increased cost, cancelling 3 subs made sense to me.
As Mike stated, it seems there is merit to some of the ideas tossed about and that it might be worth addressing in the future. If/when that happens it might be worth my gaming dollar to re-up on them. For now I am going to spend those dollars on things I don't need for PFS... the adventure card game for example, or modeling supplies at the local game shop, or maybe a new binder for my characters. I am not suddenly a non-customer, I just don't think it makes sense to spend money on resources I will not ever utilize under the clarification. I fully realize I was doing it wrong all along, but it was due to that lack of understanding that subscriptions made sense for me.
On to the next topic! I look forward to a hopeful revisit by everyone once things have calmed down for everyone post-con.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Chiming in to add my 2 ep worth, as someone without an e-reader or particularly travel-friendly computer.
a) Thank you very much Mr. Brock for your clear and cogent clarification of what is required to use additional resources;
b) Thank you again, this time for agreeing to look into the 'photocopy' issue post-GenCon;
c) On one of the really nifty things about PFS was, I thought, the ability to 'drop in' and play "my character" in a PFS game if I was travelling for work (in particular) or personal reasons. Didn't matter if I was 400, 1700, or 4600 km away from home (and my physical Pathfinder Books): as long as I tucked a small loose-leaf folder containing a copy of my sheets into my bag, I was good to go! (My tiny emergency travel dice live in my travelling bag, just in case. :))
I clearly hadn't thought this through, though: as my character does generally draw from a couple of Additional Resources, I'd be out of luck. If I'd just need to add 2-3 photocopied sheets (for APG and ARG, mostly) to my little bundle, that would seem a great boon;
d) Certifying ownership of certain physical books so that photocopies from said books would be permissible sounds like a fair compromise (in terms of I'd resent the hassle a little bit, but appreciate the rationale for it and would be comfortable with this balance). Perhaps a separate and specific certification sheet could be required for each character. That way, simply buying a book, getting certified, and returning/reselling it (while being able to keep using the sheet) would not work long-term. Heck, maybe have a GM re-certify for each character at 1st, 5th, and 9th levels? (A chart similar to the inventory chart, but where you write in book names and acquire GM initials in three columns...)?

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

Mike,
I'd like to make a common-sense exception: if a player is caught without a resource for a minor aspect of the character -- like not having the rules for a spell or a piece of equipment, or maybe a trait or feat -- it seems reasonable to simply disallow that spell, equipment, etc. for the session, as opposed to making the player revise the character.
Obviously, this wouldn't work for a class or race or archetype.
Does that seem reasonable?

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

I would just like to point out that some of us do have integrity.
I would guess that the "some" is more like "most," but that doesn't stop Paizo from copywriting their products. The is a small group who will break the rules no matter what. We can't do much about them. However, most law-abiding people will not adhere to a law if you stop enforcing it. ATM the rule is that you must bring documentation to the table. We can, and should, continue the discourse about possible alternatives as the Paizo library continues to grow. However, let's not lose focus on what the rules ARE and follow them.
As to some of the comments regarding VO/5-stars, as a group, we work very hard promoting PFS and encouraging not only sales that help both Paizo and retailers, but ushering in new players. Our passion for following the rules does not equate to any wish to see people go away. There is some truth to PFS not being for everyone and some people playing would be better served doing something else. However, that does not mean we want them to go.
At the core, there are two aspects of this discussion; (1) what the rules are, and (2) what the rules should be. Following #1 and expecting everyone else to do the same is not BadWrongFun. My comments earlier were with respect the current version of the guide. Whether or not I/you/we agree with the documentation rule is not relevant. You MUST provide documentation or that character is not eligible for play. I/you/we can also encourage leadership to consider some changes.
I just do not want anyone to refuse to bring the requirements and then blame the GM when s/he is just enforcing the rules.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

The problem is not that the rules are the same as they were four or five years ago; the problem is that those rules just aren't being enforced. That means that 'we' (the PFS community) have been training our player base to expect the non-enforcement of the rules. Changing the way we act now is bound to cause some level of resentment; the trick is to minimize this, while still meeting the requirements of campaign management.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |

So, do I understand that the idea is: a bunch of us borrow a friend's copy of Ultimate Combat, for an afternoon; each of us shows it to a GM, each gets a sign-off, and then we can all photocopy pages out of it without limit?
I don't see how that protects Paizo's IP.
You do realize that photoshopped pages of PDFs are equally easy to fake...right?
That said, a simple must sign inside of cover would work to negate that aspect.

![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

The problem is not that the rules are the same as they were four or five years ago; the problem is that those rules just aren't being enforced. That means that 'we' (the PFS community) have been training our player base to expect the non-enforcement of the rules. Changing the way we act now is bound to cause some level of resentment; the trick is to minimize this, while still meeting the requirements of campaign management.
To be honest, putting that sort of expectation in players is always dangerous and will lead to, well, what's happening now. When I started my games in Richmond, I made it clear both to my store (who's been helping me get this across quite well) and my players that source documentation is required. I haven't personally had to crack down on folks because I don't see a whole lot of characters with "exotic" (meaning outside stuff that's on the PRD) abilities (note, I'm not saying they're using that as documentation). When I did last week and mentioned the problem, well, dude hopped online and bought the Blood of Fiends PDF right then and there (it wasn't going to be available in the store). This is right after a certain lizard in Severing Ties sold three folios when I mentioned the re-roll rule :).
In short, if other folks have instilled a sense of "we can skirt the rules" in their players, then you're just reaping what you've sewn.

Mistwalker |

In short, if other folks have instilled a sense of "we can skirt the rules" in their players, then you're just reaping what you've sewn.
That seems to be little harsh and judgmental. And painting everyone with the same brush.
There has been some confusion over photocopies being used. Not everyone one started their player base from scratch. Not everyone plays the game in a store (I mostly do Cons and not in store Game Days) where they usually have a bit more time for discussing non-scenario related items.
In the last not in store Game Day that I GMed at, I let the players that I GMed for know that there was talk about character audits and that the resource rule would likely be more strictly enforced in the future.
My approach is to warn players that the changes are coming, and to ease into them. To give them a chance to clean up their player portfolios and if need be, buy the resource books that they may need to make their PC legal.
Obviously, with a single GMing star to my name, I did not start PFS in my area, and that I inherited a small player base (as did the new VL in may area). I am trying to help grow it in a friendly manner.
I liked your post before I read the last phrase, which leaves a bad taste, and makes it all too easy to put you in the "oh, one of those" category and to skip your posts in the future - which would be wrong as the first part did provide some good suggestions and guidance.

DSXMachina |

c) On one of the really nifty things about PFS was, I thought, the ability to 'drop in' and play "my character" in a PFS game if I was travelling for work (in particular) or personal reasons. Didn't matter if I was 400, 1700, or 4600 km away from home (and my physical Pathfinder Books): as long as I tucked a small loose-leaf folder containing a copy of my sheets into my bag, I was good to go! (My tiny emergency travel dice live in my travelling bag, just in case. :))
Agreed, it makes pick up games very tough (unless you use pre-Gens).
Though the answer seems to be getting pdf's, like with Con games - rather than spending hundreds of dollars lugging around books.