How are masterwork and special materials costs applied to ammunition?
My specific question is about a pack of shuriken, priced at 5/1 gp. Masterwork says that it's 6 gp per unit of ammunition. Does that mean that my pack of shuriken costs 7 gp, or costs 36 gp?
The same question applies to special materials. We'll use shuriken again, and have them made out of living steel. That's 10 gp per item, according to the table. Is the pack of shuriken 11 gp, or 51 gp?
(As an aside... living steel heals itself. Can living steel ammunition, while broken after being used, "heal" itself to the point of being useable again? And how long would that take?)
So... ammunition costs are there to do nothing but screw over characters who use ranged or thrown weapons? Please help me understand the design philosophy here, as I try to break it down in a way I can understand.
I just did some fast math, but maybe some people can put perspective on my quandary, here.
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"Adamantine MW Shuriken" vs "Adamantine MW Rapier"
Shuriken (5) = 1 + (5*60) + (5*6) = 331
Shuriken (1) = 66.2 gp
Rapier = 20 + 3000 + 300 = 3,320 gp
3,320 / 66.2 = 50 shuriken : 1 rapier
Cost of 50 adamantine MW shuriken = (331*10) = 3,310 gp
It looks like we're coming out with 10 gp profit by using shuriken, right? Let's assume that both the shuriken wielder and the rapier wielder hit every attack for 50 attacks, but are average at rolling damage. The average damage of a rapier is 3.5 ([1+2+3+4+5+6]/6) and the average damage of a shuriken is 1.5 ([1+2]/2).
Over the course of 50 attacks... 175 damage from the rapier, 75 from shuriken.
Let's assume a shortbow is a more fair example than shuriken. Cost per arrow is 66.05 gp for MW adamantine. The math still holds up to 50 arrows being equal to 1 rapier of the same special material.
In order to get 50 arrows, though, you have to spend 643 more gp, because you can't buy them in units of 5 or 10. The arrows will have the same 175 average damage that the rapier will, but at a higher gp cost.
Rapier: 3,320/175 = 18.97 gp spent per HP of damage dealt
Arrows: 3,963/175 = 22.65 gp spent per HP of damage dealt
Shuriken: 3,310/75 = 44.13 gp spent per HP of damage dealt
Over their course of owning the weapon, something tells me the average PC is going to make more than 50 attack rolls. The rapier never breaks, and never has a percentage change that it could not be recovered after a miss. You're always guaranteed to have the rapier.
For every miss with a shuriken, you've wasted 66.2 gp, half the time. For every missed arrow, you're out 66.05 gold, half the time. You're not out anything if you miss with the rapier. So, let's suppose that those same guys, the shortbowman, the rapier wielder, the shurken thrower... just can't hit the broad side of a barn. At all. But for each of our ranged characters, half their ammo is just plain gone.
The rapier owner, after 50 missed attacks, has spent 3,320. And does not have replacement expenses.
Total cost to be a swordsman that day? 3,320
The shortbowman, after 50 missed attacks, has spent 3,963. He has to replace 25 of those arrows, which only come in packs of 20. His replacement expense is 2,642.
Total cost to be an archer that day? 6,605
The shuriken thrower, after 50 missed attacks, has spent 3,310. His replacement expense is 3,310.
Total cost to throw shuriken that day? 6,620
What the hell, right? Why is this a thing? All three of the characters will have to spend capital to maintain the +'s they're expected to have to meet system math over the course of their career. But, on top of that, anyone using ranged weapons will be taxed about twice what the melee people will be for the simple fact of "ammunition breaks."
Don't get me wrong: I don't mind consumable ammunition, or resource management games. But this isn't Shadowrun where EVERYONE (even the mages) carry guns and shoot stuff. Everyone from the street ganger up to the corp's fighter jet rigger has the ammunition cost they have to pay to keep running the shadows. Why, in PF, should the ranged characters be taxed at twice the rate as melee combatants when it comes to capital expenditure? Where's the balance point in making ranged combatants pay for their magic weapon of choice AND ammo for it, while melee combatants never have to spend another dime, after their initial capital outlay for a magic weapon?
(DISCLAIMER:I'll admit to being new to the system. This is not something I've examined before, in any detail before now. I'm going to have to go back and examine other RPGs, at least have a cursory glance, to see if this is a thing across all platforms, or it's just PF/D&D games. Try to be gentle when replying. Thank you.)
Ranged Attacks are at a decided disadvantage against DR in this regard. Bows at least transmit their magic to ammunition, but still you have to overcome DR for each attack. That's what the Clustered Shots feat is for - add up total damage in a round before discounting for DR.
DR 10/Silver? Three arrows ordinarily would mean you're taking off up to 30 damage. With Clustered Shots it's only 10 without Silver/Mithral arrows.
Just a quick note, it's not just bows that benefit from Clustered Shots. It's any ranged weapons when you use the Full Attack Action to get multiple ranged weapon attacks. So it works for Shurikens, too.
Obviously, that still doesn't do much to overcome the expensiveness of purchasing them in the first place, though. As noted, ranged fighting is typically more expensive, both from a financial standpoint and a feat standpoint. But then again, you're more likely to be able to use full attacks more often with ranged weapons, so the added cost is intended to help balance things out, I think.
Aside from the aforementioned Weapon Blanches, you can also use the spell Mend to repair destroyed items. Since ammunition are 'destroyed' when used they can be repaired. Normally I won't waste time on most ammunition for this purpose but I certainly would for adamantine ammunition.
- Gauss
To the best of my knowledge only ammunition is destroyed upon hits, thrown weapons (like throwing axes, daggers, javelins etc) can be retrieved and reused.
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
The 'generally speaking' note implies that there are exceptions to the rule - considering the durability of adamantine you might be able to make an argument that ammunition made from adamantine can survive the impact. Of course your mileage may vary depending on your GM.
It should be noted that either way the 'ammunition' loses all enhancement bonuses when it hits the target. Even if you 'reuse' a magical arrow, it only counts as magic for the first shot.
Durable Arrows are also handy for Special Ammunition types.
Durable Arrows are also handy for Special Ammunition types.
What book can I find those in?
Durable Arrows are also handy for Special Ammunition types.What book can I find those in?
Elves of Golarion
Just a reminder, Elves of Golarion is a 3.5 era publication, you should check with your GM before using it.
- Gauss
Also, they're arrows. He seems to want shurikens.
From what I could tell he was using Shuriken as an Example...
Also I thought they were reprinted into a newer book?
but either way one should talk to their GM about prices.