Batsel Hoon

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So... ammunition costs are there to do nothing but screw over characters who use ranged or thrown weapons? Please help me understand the design philosophy here, as I try to break it down in a way I can understand.

I just did some fast math, but maybe some people can put perspective on my quandary, here.
.

"Adamantine MW Shuriken" vs "Adamantine MW Rapier"
Shuriken (5) = 1 + (5*60) + (5*6) = 331
Shuriken (1) = 66.2 gp

Rapier = 20 + 3000 + 300 = 3,320 gp

3,320 / 66.2 = 50 shuriken : 1 rapier

Cost of 50 adamantine MW shuriken = (331*10) = 3,310 gp

It looks like we're coming out with 10 gp profit by using shuriken, right? Let's assume that both the shuriken wielder and the rapier wielder hit every attack for 50 attacks, but are average at rolling damage. The average damage of a rapier is 3.5 ([1+2+3+4+5+6]/6) and the average damage of a shuriken is 1.5 ([1+2]/2).

Over the course of 50 attacks... 175 damage from the rapier, 75 from shuriken.

Let's assume a shortbow is a more fair example than shuriken. Cost per arrow is 66.05 gp for MW adamantine. The math still holds up to 50 arrows being equal to 1 rapier of the same special material.

In order to get 50 arrows, though, you have to spend 643 more gp, because you can't buy them in units of 5 or 10. The arrows will have the same 175 average damage that the rapier will, but at a higher gp cost.

Rapier: 3,320/175 = 18.97 gp spent per HP of damage dealt
Arrows: 3,963/175 = 22.65 gp spent per HP of damage dealt
Shuriken: 3,310/75 = 44.13 gp spent per HP of damage dealt

Over their course of owning the weapon, something tells me the average PC is going to make more than 50 attack rolls. The rapier never breaks, and never has a percentage change that it could not be recovered after a miss. You're always guaranteed to have the rapier.

For every miss with a shuriken, you've wasted 66.2 gp, half the time. For every missed arrow, you're out 66.05 gold, half the time. You're not out anything if you miss with the rapier. So, let's suppose that those same guys, the shortbowman, the rapier wielder, the shurken thrower... just can't hit the broad side of a barn. At all. But for each of our ranged characters, half their ammo is just plain gone.

The rapier owner, after 50 missed attacks, has spent 3,320. And does not have replacement expenses.
Total cost to be a swordsman that day? 3,320

The shortbowman, after 50 missed attacks, has spent 3,963. He has to replace 25 of those arrows, which only come in packs of 20. His replacement expense is 2,642.
Total cost to be an archer that day? 6,605

The shuriken thrower, after 50 missed attacks, has spent 3,310. His replacement expense is 3,310.
Total cost to throw shuriken that day? 6,620

What the hell, right? Why is this a thing? All three of the characters will have to spend capital to maintain the +'s they're expected to have to meet system math over the course of their career. But, on top of that, anyone using ranged weapons will be taxed about twice what the melee people will be for the simple fact of "ammunition breaks."

Don't get me wrong: I don't mind consumable ammunition, or resource management games. But this isn't Shadowrun where EVERYONE (even the mages) carry guns and shoot stuff. Everyone from the street ganger up to the corp's fighter jet rigger has the ammunition cost they have to pay to keep running the shadows. Why, in PF, should the ranged characters be taxed at twice the rate as melee combatants when it comes to capital expenditure? Where's the balance point in making ranged combatants pay for their magic weapon of choice AND ammo for it, while melee combatants never have to spend another dime, after their initial capital outlay for a magic weapon?

(DISCLAIMER:I'll admit to being new to the system. This is not something I've examined before, in any detail before now. I'm going to have to go back and examine other RPGs, at least have a cursory glance, to see if this is a thing across all platforms, or it's just PF/D&D games. Try to be gentle when replying. Thank you.)


How are masterwork and special materials costs applied to ammunition?

My specific question is about a pack of shuriken, priced at 5/1 gp. Masterwork says that it's 6 gp per unit of ammunition. Does that mean that my pack of shuriken costs 7 gp, or costs 36 gp?

The same question applies to special materials. We'll use shuriken again, and have them made out of living steel. That's 10 gp per item, according to the table. Is the pack of shuriken 11 gp, or 51 gp?

(As an aside... living steel heals itself. Can living steel ammunition, while broken after being used, "heal" itself to the point of being useable again? And how long would that take?)


I will work on seeing who wants to do some flanking, next time they attend.


I don't mind being mid-to-short range, switching between thrown weapons and melee. I just want to be good at doing it.

The expedient retreat trick (a rogue talent granted by a ninja trick) seemed like a good investment, but I didn't get a chance to use it last session. Moreso now that I'm looking at getting something with reach on it.

Any opinions?


I'm going to retrain my feats that don't say "djinni assigned."

I'm thinking two should at least be the one that lets me increase a range increment, plus the one that gives me +1 to attack and damage within 30'.

The unfortunate truth is that I do not have decent flanking buddies. Here's our party makeup:

- succubus sorcerer who can fly
- avoral ranged paladin (how he shoots his bow and keeps flapping his wings is still beyond me, they should be mutually exclusive, one would imagine)
- nymph monk who can't fly
- hound archon battle oracle (I don't know if he can fly yet - he wasn't at the last session)
- ogre mage paladin who has attendance issues

So no one who's really been willing to sit in one place so far and help me maximize flanking.

My current two ninja tricks that don't grant me invisibility... I'll probably swap those for the shurkien flurry and one of the two tricks you recommend (off/def, befuddle).

I can't afford the runner's shirt yet, but I think I will put it on my wish list for later, absolutely. Maybe I could sell off that heartseeker rapier...

My DM thinks that a two-handed weapon with reach would help me get some desperately-needed space, too. I have proficiency in all simple and martial weapons as a djinni, so I really have my pick. Also, free actions to let go with one hand and fling shurikens on an as-needed basis.

Until recently, my default has been, "We're not in combat. I'm invisible!" Whenever combat opens, I'm usually set in that respect. Standard action to turn back to invisible after opening with something thrown is a rough call, though. I try to ration my ki points throughout the day, but maybe I should be more aggressive in using them to stay alive longer.


Djinni do have darkvision for 60'.

Are poisons really worth it? I haven't explored it much, but I always heard it was a rule of thumb that alchemy and poison just weren't worth the time, considering the saves on available poisons. ...is there a poisoner's guide?


Not without violating copyright, I can't. Sorry... I'll try to reproduce the table when I have a chance, though, of the levels and abilities.

It came out of "Savage Species." Page 162.


To be fair, though, the last death was kind of on the whole party and not just my own foolishness in taking on an "optional boss fight."

There was a splinter drake (??? -- it was made of wood, had a breath weapon of splinters and poison, and looked like a dragon without wings -- ???) that we could have let just walk through the map and ignore us, but I think someone took offense to being damaged by its breath weapon.

Instead of letting it prove its point that it was bigger and badder (so we can come back later and kick it to the curb), we responded in kind, and engaged in a long, brutal battle that (I think) left most of us bloodied, and me dead for the 3rd time since the campaign began.


I don't want to be the juggernaut, but I do recognize the fact that if a player doesn't engage in combat, then all the expect damage the party is supposed to take lands on the shoulders of the one guy who can't fly.

This should cover all the numbers that can't be found on the PFSRD. AMA if there's something you don't see that you need to know about. I'll do my best to have a prompt answer.

...

NINJA/DJINNI - 6/6

STR: 20, DEX: 22, CON: 11, INT: 16, WIS: 12, CHA: 15

HP: 41

Init: 10

AC: 24, TOUCH: 16:, FF: 14

F/R/W: 3/11/4

Melee: 10, Ranged: 10, CMB: 9, CMD: 25

=====
GEAR
=====
Wakizashi, +1 Evil Outsider Bane (bought)
Wakizashi, +1 Undead Bane (drop)
Rapier, +1 Heartseeker (drop)
Chakram
Shurkien

================
RACIAL ABILITIES
================
Telepathy 100'
Fly 30'
Air Mastery
Invisibility (at-will, per the spell, self-only)
Whirlwind (1/day)
Plane Shift (2/day, per the spell, self-only)
Create Food & Water (1/day)
Create Wine (1/day)
Gaseous Form (1/day)

============
NINJA TRICKS
============
Vanishing Trick
Shadow Clones
(Rogue Talent) Fast Getaway

=====
FEATS
=====
Weapon Finesse (bonus, djinni 1)
[1] Toughness
Dodge (bonus, djinni assigned)
[3] Extra Ki
Improved Initiative (bonus, djinni assigned)
Opening Volley (bonus, djinni 5)
[5] Grave Risen (DM signed off on it)


I'll have the stat block for you once I get home from work, then.


We're using the Savage Species from 3x, running gestalt with PF rules. I ended up with a djinni ninja.

I kept dying, initially, because of a horrifically low CON score. It was easy to drop my poor not-rogue into the deadbook. After some stat bumps and hit dice under my belt, I'm still having the same problem.

There are two conclusions to draw:
1. The character I've created is effectively unplayable.
2. I don't know what the frack I'm doing.

I'm going to lean on number two for my answer.

The invisibility trick ninjas get has been my bread and butter, along with the djinni's ability to become invisible at-will. There's that problem of basically being one-and-done with sneak attack, though.

Flanking is great for SA characters who have hit points and high defenses. I do not. Throwing weapons, and ranged weapons, just don't seem to offer the same damage or crit potential that wicked little things like rapiers and wakizashis do, at least not without serious feat investment, at first glance. After all, even iterative attacks don't get SA on them at range, because they're now aware of you, and any further attacks deal... awful damage, for a damage-dealing class.

Any tips or tricks to solving the problem of consistently getting SA, not dying, but also not being That Guy Who Doesn't Actually Join Combat? Even our succubi sorceress was willing to walk into the middle of some really nasty baddies last night and drop an acid ball centered on herself to clear the field somewhat.

I'm new to PF, and don't really know the system, beyond the 3x mechanics it's been built off of, so a lot of the system is, "What was that?!" to me lately, as I try to figure out as I go.

Help me stop sucking at being a ninja. Gotta become hokage someday, right...? (No, sorry, never mind. Just pretend I didn't even try to go there.)