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I'm looking at a Sandman Bard for PFS, and I'm a bit confused about Stealspell. The description says:
Once the performance is started, the bard can steal a prepared spell or a spell known from another creature with a touch attack as a standard action.
...but it doesn't state whether this is a melee touch attack or a ranged touch attack. Can it be both? Or is it assumed to be melee?
There's no such thing as a "melee touch attack". It's either a ranged touch attack, or a touch attack. And this is the latter.
There's no such thing as a "melee touch attack". It's either a ranged touch attack, or a touch attack. And this is the latter.
I shall call BS and direct our attention to the Shocking Grasp spell that clearly uses the words 'melee touch attack', so there is such a thing as a melee touch attack.
As to the original post, I would ask whoever is GMing your PFS campaign whether he/she rules whether the Stealspell ability would be a melee or ranged touch attack, since melee touch attacks use strength and ranged touch attacks would use dexterity. I couldn't say one way or another as to which type of touch this would be since I don't play Bards myself.
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Surely "touch attack" and "melee touch attack" are the same thing. The sandman ability will require a regular (melee) touch attack.
Surely "touch attack" and "melee touch attack" are the same thing. The sandman ability will require a regular (melee) touch attack.
Are they? They've never been synonymous before, as far as I know. The rules normally refer to "melee touch attacks" and "ranged touch attacks". Hence, my question.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
Ranged Touch Spells in Combat: Some spells allow you to make a ranged touch attack as part of the casting of the spell. These attacks are made as part of the spell and do not require a separate action. Ranged touch attacks provoke an attack of opportunity, even if the spell that causes the attacks was cast defensively. Unless otherwise noted, ranged touch attacks cannot be held until a later turn.
I added some emphasis there.
To me, the fact that it says touch attacks come in either "melee or ranged", and then goes on to spell out specific rules for ranged touch spells, indicates that something just mentioning a "touch attack" would be an implied melee touch attack.
Surely "touch attack" and "melee touch attack" are the same thing. The sandman ability will require a regular (melee) touch attack.Are they? They've never been synonymous before, as far as I know. The rules normally refer to "melee touch attacks" and "ranged touch attacks". Hence, my question.
Indeed, a melee touch attack uses your strength modifier on the attack roll, while the ranged touch attack uses your dexterity modifier, so it would matter as to which kind of touch attack would be required for the Sandman Stealspell ability. I'd certainly FAQ the ability, since it doesn't state what kind of touch attack is required for this specific ability, which could leave some wiggle room for players to better min/max or otherwise optimize their character.
Excellent question. I would actually interpret this one as a Ranged Touch attack, since Stealspell is a Bardic Performance, and those can affect anyone who can hear it and are 30 feet or less away.
Plus, it's got a will save or negate, which suggests it's a mind-affecting ability and not necessarily triggered upon physical contact.
On my table, I'd allow a Bard to choose either form of touch attack so long as they use their appropriate ability bonuses, since the ability is unspecified.
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Some attacks completely disregard armor, including shields and natural armor—the aggressor need only touch a foe for such an attack to take full effect. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). When you are the target of a touch attack, your AC doesn't include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. All other modifiers, such as your size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) apply normally. Some creatures have the ability to make incorporeal touch attacks. These attacks bypass solid objects, such as armor and shields, by passing through them. Incorporeal touch attacks work similarly to normal touch attacks except that they also ignore cover bonuses. Incorporeal touch attacks do not ignore armor bonuses granted by force effects, such as mage armor and bracers of armor.
emphasis mine. Since the skill in question leads to that section and the section says "the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranger or melee)" I would say it's either ranged or melee, you're choice
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Spells frequently use the term "touch attack" to mean "melee touch attack." Of course, most of these spells are touch spells, so the melee is implied.
Can anyone find an instance of "touch attack" meaning "ranged touch attack"? If not, I'd say the precedent is "touch attack" being synonymous with "melee touch attack"....
This isn't a spell, it's an ability. And abilities always state the type of touch attack, except in this case. Also, it's kind of unprecedented for a melee attack to be required for a bard performance.
** spoiler omitted **
emphasis mine. Since the skill in question leads to that section and the section says "the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranger or melee)" I would say it's either ranged or melee, you're choice
d20pfsrd (which is not an official paizo source) linking to the explanation of touch attacks is not a reason to believe the ability works as either a ranged or touch attack.
Most abilities/spells specify either melee or ranged touch attack. There are a few spells that just say touch attack, but have a range of creature touched. I am not aware of any spells that have a actual range but specify touch attack (as opposed to ranged touch attack). The precedent certainly looks to favor melee touch attack. But this will be up to GM interpretation without a ruling. Personally, given how powerful the ability is (draining another spell caster of spells), I'd rule melee touch only.
There's no such thing as a "melee touch attack".I shall call BS and direct our attention to the Shocking Grasp spell that clearly uses the words 'melee touch attack'
I stand corrected.
This isn't a spell, it's an ability. And abilities always state the type of touch attack, except in this case. Also, it's kind of unprecedented for a melee attack to be required for a bard performance.
This. Again, remember, anyone within 30 feet of the bard is a valid Performance target. So how does one melee touch attack someone 30 feet away?
I think that's why the non-specification. If the target is adjacent to the Bard, use a melee touch attack. If the target is out of reach, use ranged touch attack.