Okay, here's a good one. Let me see if I've got this all squared in my head.
Q1: As I understand it, if you're on the back of a spring attacking mount, any movement based AOOs on the rider are negated by the mount's feats, and the only AOOs the rider would provoke would be from actions the rider takes during the movement, not from the movement itself. Is that correct?
Q2: Are these the only relevant checks? -
Ride check DC 5 for guiding with knees.
Ride check DC 10 for fighting with a combat trained mount.
Concentration check DC 10+ spell level for vigorous motion.
Q3: Spell goes off at the midpoint of the mount's movement, correct? I read that on forums, but can't find the rule - would help to know where that is. Thanks in advance.
Q4: If the mount moved more before its attack than after, then the spell will go off before the mount closes to bite, and no casting on the defensive is necessary, correct?
Q5: If the mount moved more after its attack than before, then the spell will go off after the mount closes to bite. Does the defender get an AOO on the spellcasting rider even though he does not get an AOO on the mount? And would casting on the defensive prevent this AOO even though the caster is moving in and out of the defender's threatened zone, since his movement is tied to the spring attacking mount?
Q6: Does any of this change if the target has reach?
Presume the rider does NOT have ride by attack.
Q1) Without knowing what specific feats you're referring to it's hard to know if all AoO are actually negated or not. I can't find the relevant text to be sure if riders provoke from the mounts movement or not. I want to say no, the rider doesn't provoke from the mount's move action, no feats required.
Q2)
Casting Spells While Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level).
Q3) The spell does not necessarily go off in the middle of the movement. You must cast either before or after the mounts move action. You could theoritically cast in the middle of the mounts movement, by having the mount take 1 move action, casting, then taking a 2nd. Spring Attack does not allow you to cast while the mount is actually moving, because of the simulation of the game it is either before, after, or between.
Q4) I'm not sure I understand the question, but you need to cast defensively in order to not take an AoO anytime you try to cast and are threatened by an enemy. This is why 5ft steps are common when not mounted.
The feat in question is "Spring Attack" - it's in the thread title. The mount has spring attack, and makes a spring attack action, and the rider casts while the mount makes the spring attack action. The mount has spring attack feat, the rider has neither the spring attack feat nor the rideby attack feat.
Clearer?
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You would cast either before your mount made its spring attack or after.
If you anticipate casting frequently from a moving mount, consider:
You do not need to make concentration checks when affected by vigorous or violent motion or by violent weather. You gain a +2 bonus on all other concentration checks.
I do not believe you can cast in the middle of your mounts spring attack. I think you would have to choose to cast at either the beginning or the end of its movement. (Or like Claxon says, forget spring attack, have it just make a double move and cast between the 2 moves.)
This can't be right. Disregarding Spring Attack for a moment, consider the following basic cases, which are true in the rules:
If the mount moves once, you don't have to make a concentration check. You may cast and then have the mount move, or have the mount move and then cast.
If the mount moves twice in the round, you must make a concentration check because it's presumed you're casting during one of the mount's move segments. You take your standard action to cast during either the mount's first move segment or the second, not in a tiny instant before or between it's actions. If I could just cast before my mount did a full round action, as you seem to imply, I'd never have to make concentration checks at all. I could cast first, and then tell my mount to X4 Gallup. Since I can't, then I can't possibly cast before I tell my mount to undertake any other full round actions either. Casting on a mount that's taking a full round action must be done during the movement of the mount.
Now lets consider Spring Attack: (text replaced for clarity)
As a full-round action, (the mount) can move up to (the mount's) speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of (the mount's) attack. (The mount) can move both before and after the attack, but (the mount) must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that (the mount) move(s) cannot be greater than (the mount's) speed.
There is no 'time' to cast before or after the mount's Full Round Spring Attack action. The casting must take place while the mount is moving.
Arthanthos: The Stable Gallup feat on the mount (+4 to the concentration checks of the rider) combined with high relevant ability modifiers makes Uncanny Concentration unnecessary, but thanks for the tip.
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If the mount moves twice in the round, you must make a concentration check because it's presumed you're casting during one of the mount's move segments. You take your standard action to cast during either the mount's first move segment or the second, not in a tiny instant before or between it's actions. If I could just cast before my mount did a full round action, as you seem to imply, I'd never have to make concentration checks at all. I could cast first, and then tell my mount to X4 Gallup. Since I can't, then I can't possibly cast before I tell my mount to undertake any other full round actions either. Casting on a mount that's taking a full round action must be done during the movement of the mount.
There is no 'time' to cast before or after the mount's Full Round Spring Attack action. The casting must take place while the mount is moving.
Arthanthos: The Stable Gallup feat on the mount (+4 to the concentration checks of...
Not true. You're mount can take a double move action and then you can cast, but since the mount is not moving both before and after your casting you are not casting while the mount is moving. Moving twice in one round is not the same as moving both before and after a character casts. Your actions and turns between mount and caster are effectively interchangable because of delay and ready actions. Secondly, you must in fact take your actions before, after, or between your mounts actions, it's the simulationist nature of the. I understand this isn't intuitive and doesn't really make sense in comparison to how this would work in reality, welcome to Pathfinder. You could purposefully ready an action to cast when your mount is halfway finished with it's move, though why you want to do that in particular is beyond me.
To reitertae, you and your mount have different actions and turns. You can go first, or you mount can go first. You can even ready actions to interrupt your mount. You seem to be under the impression that your turns are somehow combined, but they aren't. You and your mount just happen to use the same iniative count because it wont do anything without you commanding it to.
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Not true. You're mount can take a double move action and then you can cast, but since the mount is not moving both before and after your casting you are not casting while the mount is moving.
I really, really don't think it works this way.
So my mount can double move all over the board every round and I never have to make a single concentration check?
By your rationale, my mount could X4 move every round and I could still cast without making a concentration check.
That can't be right. Flagging this for FAQ.
You can even ready actions to interrupt your mount.
You absolutely CANNOT do that. Readied actions have to take place after your turn is done, and the mount goes on your turn.
You seem to be under the impression that your turns are somehow combined, but they aren't. You and your mount just happen to use the same iniative count because it wont do anything without you commanding it to.
If this were true, then why would anyone ever have to make a concentration check on the back of a mount?
You absolutely CANNOT do that. Readied actions have to take place after your turn is done, and the mount goes on your turn.
Actually, by the rules an animal companion should go on its own initiative roll. But many (most) GMs simplify this by having the companion and the character go on the same initiative - but even in that case, it's not true to say that "the mount goes on your turn"; the mount goes on the same initiative modifier that you do, but its actions occur on its own unique turn. That's important to note because technically an enemy can ready actions versus your mount's action; if it does something to stop your mount's charge, you still have your own turn and can take an alternative action - you aren't interrupted, only your mount is.
You can see more of this intent of rules in the Animals and their Tricks Paizo blog post. Also of note is the fact that intelligent animal companions have Improved initiative as an available feat; if they always go on your turn\initiative, what's the point?
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Some important notes here...
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
Note that your mount specifically acts on your initiative, not on a separate turn. This is a specific rule of mounted combat that supercedes the normal division of initiative for standard animal companions.
"Casting Spells While Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level)."
You can definitely cast while your mount is moving, but Spring attack is a little odd with these rules interactions. I'd look at the rules for ranged combat while mounted to draw some guidance:
"You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally."
I would use that as a guidance for when your spell should be going off.
Some important notes here...
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
Note that your mount specifically acts on your initiative, not on a separate turn. This is a specific rule of mounted combat that supercedes the normal division of initiative for standard animal companions.
Nothing says it doesn't have it's own turn. It just tells you that it goes on your initiative count. If it doesn't have its own turn then you can be rendered unconcious and your mount can't take any actions because you don't have a turn.
Thanks for the correction, Ssalarn. I tend to lump 'animal companions', 'cohorts', and 'mounts' all together in the same group, and it's true that by RAW the mount acts on your initiative, not on its own. However, I agree with Claxon that "acts on your initiative" is not equivalent to "acts in the same turn as you".
Some important notes here...
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
Note that your mount specifically acts on your initiative, not on a separate turn. This is a specific rule of mounted combat that supercedes the normal division of initiative for standard animal companions."Casting Spells While Mounted: You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level)."
You can definitely cast while your mount is moving, but Spring attack is a little odd with these rules interactions. I'd look at the rules for ranged combat while mounted to draw some guidance:
"You can use ranged weapons while your mount is taking a double move, but at a –4 penalty on the attack roll. You can use ranged weapons while your mount is running (quadruple speed) at a –8 penalty. In either case, you make the attack roll when your mount has completed half its movement. You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally."
I would use that as a guidance for when your spell should be going off.
Thank you. Finally some sense enters the thread. Now that we can dispense with the nonsense, would you please evaluate my questions in my top post?
Specifically, simplified:
1) does the victim of the spring attack get an AOO on the mount's rider if the rider is not doing anything other than the mount's movement to provoke an AOO?
2) does the victim of the spring attack get an AOO on the mount's rider if he *is* doing something else at that point of the movement phase that would ordinarily provoke an AOO? For instance, if he hasn't yet completed the spell?
Nope. You're reading into things that aren't there again. RAW doesn't address casting during full round actions. Instead, it addresses casting when your mount moves up to its normal speed.
When your mount makes a spring attack, did it move up to its normal movement?
If yes: You cast either before or after, as per RAW.
Now I'm not saying it is RAI. I doubt there is a RAI in this circumstance.
And what if the mount stands still and makes a full attack action? Is there no concentration check at all, simply since it didn't move?
That's nonsense.
What if the mount is an awakened creature or a dragon or somesuch, and it casts a spell, or uses its breath weapon. No concentration check at all?
It seems very clear to me that full round actions by your mount require concentration checks on par with the amount of motion that they're making, and you don't simply get to opt out by claiming that you cast before it acted, or after it acted. That trick/excuse clearly works when the mount doesn't take a standard action, since you can have it hold still for you while you cast, but the idea of cramming your full round and his full round into the same full round without any sort of penalty just by working the initiative system is silly. They spelled it out for ranged attacks, doesn't it work that way for spells?
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Thank you. Finally some sense enters the thread. Now that we can dispense with the nonsense, would you please evaluate my questions in my top post?Specifically, simplified:
1) does the victim of the spring attack get an AOO on the mount's rider if the rider is not doing anything other than the mount's movement to provoke an AOO?
2) does the victim of the spring attack get an AOO on the mount's rider if he *is* doing something else at that point of the movement phase that would ordinarily provoke an AOO? For instance, if he hasn't yet completed the spell?beej67
If the only thing happening is that the mount is using Spring Attack, then they shouldn't get an attack of opportunity against the rider. It is the mount taking the action of moving through the threatened squares and the mount doesn't provoke for that movement. Now if you're taking another action that provokes, like casting a spell, then that action may very well provoke an attack of opportunity.
Actually, that's correct. House rule it if you like, but it does seem to be RAW.And what if the mount stands still and makes a full attack action? Is there no concentration check at all, simply since it didn't move?
That's nonsense.
No, it's not. Absolutely not. The mount is not motionless, the mount is attacking. There is motion involved in attacking, even if no position changes on the board. Uppy downy, side to sidey, bitey motion, which counts as "vigorous motion" in the rules for concentration.
Simply because your mount doesn't go from one square to the next does not mean that he is a stationary motionless platform from which to cast spells.
What if the mount is an awakened creature or a dragon or somesuch, and it casts a spell, or uses its breath weapon. No concentration check at all?Okay, I think you're getting a little distracted from your point. Still, let's say you are on the back of your flying dragon, and he stops flying, and begins to cast a spell. You also begin to cast a spell. Why should you have a concentration check?
If the dragon's spell has a somatic component, absolutely, because the mount is in "motion" without changing position. Unless the dragon could also levitate, the wing action of him hovering in mid air would also count as vigorous motion at a minimum.
It seems very clear to me that full round actions by your mount require concentration checks on par with the amount of motion that they're making, and you don't simply get to opt out by claiming that you cast before it acted, or after it acted. That trick/excuse clearly works when the mount doesn't take a standard action, since you can have it hold still for you while you cast, but the idea of cramming your full round and his full round into the same full round without any sort of penalty just by working the initiative system is silly. They spelled it out for ranged attacks, doesn't it work that way for spells?Actually, from what has been posted here, they have not spelled it out for ranged attacks. However, rather they did or not is beside the point. The fact of the matter is, the only mounted related thing that is called out as necessitating a concentration check is movement...
No it's not. It is absolutely NOT movement. It's "motion." If you are on a small boat in rough water that is not moving, that is still vigorous motion, and still a concentration check. That is straight, word for word, out of the RAW. Small boat bobbing up and down is the same thing as "on the back of a dire wolf who's trying to bite someone."
The clear keyword in the rules as written is not "movement," it is "motion," of which there are three categories, "vigorous," "violent," and "extremely violent." The RAW have examples of all three which do not involve movement from your square.
If the only thing happening is that the mount is using Spring Attack, then they shouldn't get an attack of opportunity against the rider. It is the mount taking the action of moving through the threatened squares and the mount doesn't provoke for that movement. Now if you're taking another action that provokes, like casting a spell, then that action may very well provoke an attack of opportunity.
Again thank you.
So if one presumes that spells from horseback follow the same form as ranged attacks from horseback, the spell goes off when the animal has made half it's movement for the round, and the victim of the spring attack does not get an AOO if the spell goes off before the animal closes, but would if it goes off after the animal closes and the caster did not also cast on the defensive.
No it's not. It is absolutely NOT movement. It's "motion." If you are on a small boat in rough water that is not moving, that is still vigorous motion, and still a concentration check. That is straight, word for word, out of the RAW. Small boat bobbing up and down is the same thing as "on the back of a dire wolf who's trying to bite someone."
You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level)."
In both cases here, the "vigorous motion" and "violent motion" are dependent on a specifically-defined action - movement, which is further clarified to mean not simple movement within a square, but actual movement from one square to another.
What you're arguing is not strict RAW.
Does it make sense? Yes, it does. If a Paladin were sitting on the back of a warhorse attempting to cast a spell while the warhorse was rearing up on hind legs to strike, I would require a concentration check.
But that's a combination of RAI and table rule. If I were to run by strict RAW, then the rules do not mention any penalties to spellcasting for motion that does not involve an actual move action.
No it's not. It is absolutely NOT movement. It's "motion." If you are on a small boat in rough water that is not moving, that is still vigorous motion, and still a concentration check. That is straight, word for word, out of the RAW. Small boat bobbing up and down is the same thing as "on the back of a dire wolf who's trying to bite someone."You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level)."In both cases here, the "vigorous motion" and "violent motion" are dependent on a specifically-defined action - movement, which is further clarified to mean not simple movement within a square, but actual movement from one square to another.
What you're arguing is not strict RAW.
Those are two examples, among many, of things that can cause concentration checks. They are not exclusive, and the concentration rules are clear that those examples are not exclusive.
Does it make sense? Yes, it does. If a Paladin were sitting on the back of a warhorse attempting to cast a spell while the warhorse was rearing up on hind legs to strike, I would require a concentration check.
But that's a combination of RAI and table rule. If I were to run by strict RAW, then the rules do not mention any penalties to spellcasting for motion that does not involve an actual move action.
Yes they do. Standing on a rowboat in a pitched see, even if that rowboat is anchored against movement, requires a check. Standing still during an earthquake requires a check. The concentration rules are very clear on this. They are also very clear that it's not only earthquakes that require a check, but in fact things like earthquakes require a check. The concentration rules do not present an exhaustive list of things that require you to check, they provide a set of examples to use when determining what the check should be. Applying a check to something else that's not in their specific list is not a house rule. It's the intention of the system, as written.
Yay James Maissen. I respect your opinion quite a bit.
No, Spring attack only protects the user of the feat. The rider is on their own.
You and Ssalarn seem to disagree, and it was one of my primary questions that sparked the thread. Do you (or he?) have somewhere to point to, to support this premise one way or the other? His reasoning seems very sound to me - if the mount does not provoke an AOO from the mount's movement, why would having something on the mount's back suddenly provoke an AOO? What if the mount had a large backpack on, would the backpack suddenly provoke an AOO? What's the difference between that and a rider who's not swinging at the target?
Ride By Attack states specifically that there is no AOO on you or the mount. Spring Attack does not state it specifically, since it was not written for this case, but the Mounted Combat section implies that you use your mount's movement, albeit on your turn.
I'm not entirely certain how you would direct the mount to Spring Attack. You certainly need to direct it to attack. The DC 10 ride check is merely so that the rider can attack.
The same way you'd direct it to attack at all - by having the ride skill. In my case it doesn't matter, because the mount has an INT of 6 and I can speak to it, ("hey doggie, go spring attack that guy") but I don't think this matters. You are allowed to manage (and micromanage) your mount's movements in combat by the rules. Whether you can do so with a free ranging animal companion is always a subject of debate - I tend to say no - but mounts are different.
I presume the DC 10 ride check applies not just for the rider to attack, but also for the rider to do other things similar to attacking, such as casting spells.
If you cast before or after the movement, then you don't need a concentration check. If you cast in between such movement, then you do.
If you make a ranged attack (even a full attack) it occurs in the middle of movement. This is in the mounted combat section of the combat section of the core rule book.
Opinions on this appear to differ above. For a caster on the back of a mount that's taking a full round action involving movement, do you think the spell should go off at the half way point of that movement, or before/after the movement?
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No it's not. It is absolutely NOT movement. It's "motion." If you are on a small boat in rough water that is not moving, that is still vigorous motion, and still a concentration check. That is straight, word for word, out of the RAW. Small boat bobbing up and down is the same thing as "on the back of a dire wolf who's trying to bite someone."You can cast a spell normally if your mount moves up to a normal move (its speed) either before or after you cast. If you have your mount move both before and after you cast a spell, then you're casting the spell while the mount is moving, and you have to make a concentration check due to the vigorous motion (DC 10 + spell level) or lose the spell. If the mount is running (quadruple speed), you can cast a spell when your mount has moved up to twice its speed, but your concentration check is more difficult due to the violent motion (DC 15 + spell level)."In both cases here, the "vigorous motion" and "violent motion" are dependent on a specifically-defined action - movement, which is further clarified to mean not simple movement within a square, but actual movement from one square to another.
What you're arguing is not strict RAW.
Those are two examples, among many, of things that can cause concentration checks. They are not exclusive, and the concentration rules are clear that those examples are not exclusive.
Yes they do. Standing on a rowboat in a pitched see, even if that rowboat is anchored...Does it make sense? Yes, it does. If a Paladin were sitting on the back of a warhorse attempting to cast a spell while the warhorse was rearing up on hind legs to strike, I would require a concentration check.
But that's a combination of RAI and table rule. If I were to run by strict RAW, then the rules do not mention any penalties to spellcasting for motion that does not involve an actual move action.
Arguments such as these are why I suggested the Uncanny Concentration feat.
It negates most circumstances that would require a concentration check.
Uncanny concentration doesn't effect whether being on the back of a spring attacking mount provokes an AOO against the rider though. That's really the most important element of the question.
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I'd further posit (more for precedence than actual RAW) that other forms of forced movement don't provoke AoO unless you've taken a specific feat or series of feats to make them do so. If I Bull Rush a goblin through a square threatened by my ally, that movement does not provoke an AoO (unless I have Greater Bull Rush, of course). So if I am on the back of my mount and he carries through a threatened space without provoking an AoO, why would I provoke an AoO? I have taken no actions which provoke, as my mount was moving and he did nothing to provoke, and the only other examples in game of actions where another creature moves you through a threatened space specifically don't provoke without feats or abilities changing the normal rules to make it so that they do.
First, if the mount were simply moving along and provokes, would you claim that the rider did not provoke as well?
I think the rider goes as the mount goes. To me, the rider is like gear. If the mount had an unconscious body on the back of it, and it provoked an AOO, then the creature it provoked from could stab at the unconscious body just like it could sunder the mount's gear or stab at the mount itself.
On the flipside, if the mount didn't provoke an AOO, then then the unconscious body strapped to its back wouldn't provoke the AOO either. The unconscious body is basically just gear.
So why would being conscious suddenly change that? I'm awake I provoke an AOO, I'm asleep I don't? Can I just pretend to be asleep for a second while my mount moves?
But you're dead on with this:
An aside, if the mount's movement didn't also have the rider provoke.. then simply using a mount to withdraw and full attack becomes a bit abusive.
So I'm not really sure how to approach the issue.
I think you're probably right. It's goofy but doing it any other way opens things up for even more goofyness.
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"An aside, if the mount's movement didn't also have the rider provoke.. then simply using a mount to withdraw and full attack becomes a bit abusive."
I'm curious as to how, since Withdrawing only doesn't provoke from the first square. You would also either need to be using a ranged weapon or have the Mounted Skirmisher feat to pull this off, since any movement over 5 feet limits the rider to one melee attack. There isn't really much or any room to abuse something there.
Also:
"Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack."
Your movement doesn't provoke any attacks of opportunity. And the guy on your back isn't taking any actions (presumably, with the clarifications made above). So the target of your Spring Attack shouldn't be getting any AoO, not vs. the mount, not vs. anyone who happens to be with the mount during movement. Any other actions taken by the rider should provoke as normal.
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"An aside, if the mount's movement didn't also have the rider provoke.. then simply using a mount to withdraw and full attack becomes a bit abusive."
I'm curious as to how, since Withdrawing only doesn't provoke from the first square. You would also either need to be using a ranged weapon or have the Mounted Skirmisher feat to pull this off, since any movement over 5 feet limits the rider to one melee attack. There isn't really much or any room to abuse something there.
Honestly, I'm thinking more of a caster that can walk away from a melee character without provoking or setting themselves up for a full attack the following round.
Secondly, you could have a character with a reach weapon take an attack as the mount walks away, then take an AOO when the poor melee tries to close again (if they can reach)... and rinse repeat.
But mainly I was considering a caster that can full speed withdraw and still cast to their hearts content without provoking.
-James
Casters can already do that. That's why they have to make a DC 10 + spell level concentration check when subjected to vigorous motion while casting. It's hard to keep hold of your spell components while your mount is booking it away from the enemy. I might even require the DC 15 + Spell level concentration check for a caster trying to cast under a condition of violent movement for a caster trying to cast while his mount Spring Attacks, in addition to any other checks. There are checks and balances in place for these things.
Casters can already do that. That's why they have to make a DC 10 + spell level concentration check when subjected to vigorous motion while casting. It's hard to keep hold of your spell components while your mount is booking it away from the enemy. I might even require the DC 15 + Spell level concentration check for a caster trying to cast under a condition of violent movement for a caster trying to cast while his mount Spring Attacks, in addition to any other checks. There are checks and balances in place for these things.No, they cannot move away, cast a spell, and NOT provoke an AOO from the fighter that was threatening their original square!
-James
Yeah, this. ^^
In order to back away on a mount and cast a spell, the caster should by all rights have to make two concentration checks, one for the movement and one for the vigorous motion.
But even skipping the caster issues, if withdrawing extended its freedom from AOOs up to the rider, the rider would just have the mount "withdraw" every round instead of simply riding him around every round, and never provoke AOOs from his first square worth of movement. Routine mounted combat would become a free almost-clone of spring attack, because the melee guy could swing and then have the mount "withdraw."
I don't like the idea that an unconscious rider strapped to a spring attacking mount doesn't provoke an AOO, but a conscious one does. It's a silly result of the rules, should they be ruled that way. But I agree with James that ruling them the other way creates worse problems, and I thank James for providing that example to help clarify the issue in my head. This thread has been productive.
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Casters can already do that. That's why they have to make a DC 10 + spell level concentration check when subjected to vigorous motion while casting. It's hard to keep hold of your spell components while your mount is booking it away from the enemy. I might even require the DC 15 + Spell level concentration check for a caster trying to cast under a condition of violent movement for a caster trying to cast while his mount Spring Attacks, in addition to any other checks. There are checks and balances in place for these things.No, they cannot move away, cast a spell, and NOT provoke an AOO from the fighter that was threatening their original square!
-James
Casters can't 5 foot step?
And as I pointed out, there are rules covering what a caster has to do if he wants to cast while his mount is running about, but the advantage of having a mount is the increased action economy, and the fact that you can do things like that. The downside is casters have to make concentration checks or waste their turns when their spells don't go off, and generally, they're riding a much squishier snack that's just begging to be dropped out from under them the first time an AOE goes off in their vicinity.
Yeah you get to move more. That's why you have a mount. Mounted Archers can ride around all day long, kiting enemies who never quite reach them to their heart's content. Unless they run into flying, mounted, spellcasting, or other archery using characters, and then that goes bye bye. And since when is a mount that you have to keep alive with its 12 hit dice at 20th level (assuming it's even an animal companion and not some poor quadruped you've harangued into carrying you) more broken than just casting Fly, or Dimension Door, or any of a number of less feat intensive ways of staying away from bad guys? The mount requires you to have skill ranks in Ride, Handle Animal, and to regularly make Concentration checks to cast. The advantage is that when you make that investment, your mount can be an asset on the battlefield, carrying you safely into or out of the fray.