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This is addressed to the developers of the Black Blade archtype. I do not know why you go through the wild gyrations of claiming that the black blade is not a magic item like any other magical weapon. Magical weapons can have unique and distincive features like an ego that does not follow the standard ego progression like other intelligent magic items.
I think it would have been much simpler and caused less argument among your players to have made the black blade an Item familiar. This would have allowed you to follow or write suplemental rules for enchanting the black blade and been well within the role I think that you envisioned for the black blade. There is no reason that I can see that the black blade could not have been made an item familiar except for WOTC IP reasons.
I don't want you guys think I don't like the arch type because It rocks I have an 11th level blade bound magus in PFS the only reason he is not higher level is our lodge has not run any seeker level adventures.
I just think that making the black blade an Item Familiar instead of a weird class feature that does not jibe with other Magic weapons would improve the arch type and cut out ny arguments on what a black blade can or cannot do.
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Great. What's your rules question
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My rules question for the Dev of the black blade arch type is why if you could have made the black blade an Item familiar instead of a class feature why did they do one and not the other as IMO making the black blade an Item Familiar would have solved most questions on enchanting black blades. It is a rules design question.
My rules question for the Dev of the black blade arch type is why if you could have made the black blade an Item familiar instead of a class feature why did they do one and not the other as IMO making the black blade an Item Familiar would have solved most questions on enchanting black blades. It is a rules design question.
I don't think that's really a rules question, but I'll bite and try to answer(not a dev myself though of course). The black blade is a class feature that emulates an intelligent item that scales with you, it also eats up your arcane bond 'slot'(it has a few other perks, but not so important to mention). You can still just get an intelligent item or house rule it in if you want. A magus with an intelligent item he picked up in the game gets a non scaling version of what's essentially the same thing.
In PFS there really aren't many intelligent items, so the black blade happens to be one of the few that exist and is actually a boon because you don't have to depend on a named item to drop(that you still couldn't enhance in PFS!)
Some rules are in place JUST BECAUSE of balance. For example, the summoner's aspect ability says you can't use it to by the ability increase evolution. This is in their purely to prevent someone from cheesing ability scores.
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IMO making the black blade an Item Familiar would have solved most questions on enchanting black blades.
How?
The issue of enchanting black blades will never die, will it. In some form, it will always continue on. No matter how clear it was, or much clearer the Devs just made it recently.
It is the Tarrasque of the rules forums.
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I think caster/martial discussions or monk threads are better candidates as the tarrasque of the forums. Except they NEVER rest.
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It eventually becomes a +5 weapon that gives you Alertness for free, is unbreakable most of the time, can teleport to your hand, or can enhance / convert its damage bonus / type ...and despite getting this for free with your class, you feel that because it can't be enchanted you have to complain directly to a dev?
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Sean, there are rules for enchanting Item familiars.
IMO i think calling the black blade a class feature instead of a class feature that grants the PC a magic weapon that is tied to class via the arcane pool and follows all the rules for intelligent magic items.
I say change the silly ego rules for the black blade and have them use the ego rules for intelligent magic items.
Allow black blades to be enchanted following normal enchanting rules. as far as cost goes since the black blade scales as the Magus increases in level a little more record keeping in necessary you pay the cost of the enchantment accoroding to what the black blades attack bonus at the time of the enchantment. As far as the black blade's being intelligent all I would require is a diplomacy role equal to the black blades ego - the bonus of the enchantment after all the enchantment is improving the black blade.
Sean, there are rules for enchanting Item familiars.
I don't believe there are in the Pathfinder RPG, and (unless they give permission to do so) we can't just copy someone else's rules into our game.
And even if we could, we're not going to reclassify the black blade as a familiar. The book's been out for over a year, it works fine the way it is, changing it now would only confuse people and make existing books wrong.IMO i think calling the black blade a class feature instead of a class feature that grants the PC a magic weapon that is tied to class via the arcane pool and follows all the rules for intelligent magic items.
If there is little or no difference in the way the rule is expressed, there is no point in changing it.
I say change the silly ego rules for the black blade and have them use the ego rules for intelligent magic items.
A black blade already uses the ego rules for intelligent magic items, that's why the section on black blade ego refers to Core Rulebook page 535. So I'm not sure why you're calling them "silly."
Allow black blades to be enchanted following normal enchanting rules.
We're not or changing the rule about whether or not you can use item crafting feats to add abilities to it.
For the second half of that, the reason is that you would end up increasing the weapon's power for FAR less than it would normally cost.
For example, if your weapon is +1, and you increase it to +1 flaming, that costs you 8000 – 2000 = 6000 gp.
If you then level up and the weapon increases to +2, presumably it should actually increase to +2 flaming (equivalent of +3) because you crafted that +1 property onto it.
Normally, increasing a weapon from +2 to +3 costs 18,000 – 8,000 = 10,000 gp. But you got it for only 6,000 gp, which means you saved 4,000 gp by crafting more onto it early on.
And the cost disparity increases as you level up. At level 17, your black blade would increase from +4 +5, but your extra flaming from crafting means your black blade actually goes from +5-equivalent to +6-equivalent. Normally, increasing a weapon from +5 to +6 costs 72,000 – 50,000 = 22,000 gp. But you got it for only 6,000 gp, which means you saved 16,000 gp by crafting more onto it early on.
(or more, if you had the feat and crafted it yourself for half, instead of paying full price to have someone else craft it)
If you don't like it, feel free to houserule it.
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While I doubt that it will change your opinion, most problem would be resolved if the black blade was enchanted as if it had a starting +5 enhancement, regardless of its current bonus.
The black blade user is ahead of the power curve for weapons in the early game, but at the higher levels he fall behind.
At 14-16th level most people with a strong martial bent will have a better than +4 weapon.
And better than a +5 weapon at level 17+.
The high level secondary abilities of the blade aren't nothing stellar, the abilities that you can add to the blade, if you have taken all the needed arcana are very nice but require a lot of resources in arcana and arcane pool points.
While I doubt that it will change your opinion, most problem would be resolved if the black blade was enchanted as if it had a starting +5 enhancement, regardless of its current bonus.
The black blade user is ahead of the power curve for weapons in the early game, but at the higher levels he fall behind.
At 14-16th level most people with a strong martial bent will have a better than +4 weapon.
And better than a +5 weapon at level 17+.
The high level secondary abilities of the blade aren't nothing stellar, the abilities that you can add to the blade, if you have taken all the needed arcana are very nice but require a lot of resources in arcana and arcane pool points.
That assumes there is an actual 'problem' beyond some people wanting it do more. As said if you (or anyone) wants to house rule it, go for it. It wasn't intended for the black blade to be enhanced further and the FAQ finally out right states this now, ergo 'not a problem' except if you want there to be one.
The issue with using Craft Magic Arms and Armor to increase the abilities of a black blade can be addressed, but it requires extra bookkeeping*. Not everyone would be willing to follow them if they were RAW.
* House rules for improving a black blade:
1) The enhancement bonus cannot increased using Craft Magic Arms and Armor. This prevents headaches like a 9th level magus with a permanent +5 weapon or a 13th+ level magus with a +6 or better weapon.
2) A black blade cannot have more than "+5" total in weapon abilities added using Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
3) Additional weapon abilities increase the black blades ego score. Calculate the base item value of both a normal black blade and the improved black blade and add the difference between the Ego Modifiers from the Item Ego table.
4) All normal stacking rules between weapon abilities and arcane pool granted abilities apply.
5) When the magus increases to a level where the black blade's enhancement bonus increases, the black blade demands the magus spend wealth (gem encrusted hilt, support of a cause related to the black blade's agenda, etc.) equal to the difference between the creation cost when the additional abilities were added and the creation cost to add the additional abilities at the current enhancement. Otherwise, a personality conflict occurs. This prevents the magus from gaining cost breaks over and above normal.
Am I missing something? As far as I can tell, the bladebound magus can still use his arcane pool to enhance his blackblade, meaning that by level 20 it would be the equivalent of a +10 weapon.
As I'm reading it, the bladebound magus' black blade will always be the most powerful weapon in the party, free of charge.
As I'm reading it, the bladebound magus' black blade will always be the most powerful weapon in the party, free of charge.
It will be except compared to someone who artificially increases his weapon beyond a +10. Which... According to the rules you shouldn't be able to do anyway.
Am I missing something? As far as I can tell, the bladebound magus can still use his arcane pool to enhance his blackblade, meaning that by level 20 it would be the equivalent of a +10 weapon.
As I'm reading it, the bladebound magus' black blade will always be the most powerful weapon in the party, free of charge.
To an extent. The issue is that a magus using their arcane pool can only add a few specific weapon abilities: "dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal." There are a handful of magus arcana (i.e., Bane Blade, Devoted Blade, and Ghost Blade) that allow some other abilities, but the choices are still extremely limited.
Other weapon abilities that may be thematic/useful (such as conductive, courageous, cruel, cunning, defending, defiant, dueling, furious, glamered, guardian, heartseeker, huntsman, impact, etc.) are basically unavailable to a bladebound magus unless using a different weapon than their black blade. A normal magus can have the equivalent of a +10 weapon, customized to the player's desires, plus additional abilities added using their arcane pool; a bladebound magus' black blade is starting at a lower point when you get to higher levels.
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It doesn't need to be enchanted.
About all I hope they do is put out some alternate black blade powers to customize them a bit.
It doesn't need to be enchanted.
About all I hope they do is put out some alternate black blade powers to customize them a bit.
An archetype of an archetype? Sounds like houserule territory doesn't it? I mean, I guess they have a prestige for a single archetype, but most archetypes don't change much unless a rule outside of the archetype is changed if I remember correctly.
Just create an arcana that grants access to all the missing weapon abilities. If those extra enhancements are important enough to a Black Blade then they've got a way to get them.
The black blade is free, so the Bladebound Magus should have wealth available to buy a backup weapon to cover any gaps in the black blade's abilities. Even better, he could increase his power in other ways (ability score enhancement, wondrous items, etc). The black blade could also be nice in a campaign with low WBL or DM or who doesn't allow magic shoppes but gives your Errol Flynn themed Duelist a +1 plant bane greataxe and says that the PCs should "grow with the story".
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The black blade is free, so the Bladebound Magus should have wealth available to buy a backup weapon to cover any gaps in the black blade's abilities. Even better, he could increase his power in other ways (ability score enhancement, wondrous items, etc). The black blade could also be nice in a campaign with low WBL or DM or who doesn't allow magic shoppes but gives your Errol Flynn themed Duelist a +1 plant bane greataxe and says that the PCs should "grow with the story".
A black blade cost a arcana (and 1/2 arcana point every 3 levels), the equivalent of a feat, let's say Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
A crafting feat is worth 25% of your WBL (cfr. Ultimate Campaign).At level 3-7 you are well ahead of the WBL of someone with a crafting feat, but only at level 5 that advantage is large enough to allow you to buy a level appropriate weapon, Between level 8 and 10 you are generally ahead but not by much. After level 10 you are behind what a guy with a crafting feat will get with the gap getting larger as your level increase.
Sure, if the campaign don't follow WBL that argument become moot on both sides.
Just create an arcana that grants access to all the missing weapon abilities. If those extra enhancements are important enough to a Black Blade then they've got a way to get them.
Look the level at which the different abilities become available. It is nice to be able to make my sword holy at the expense of arcana.
It is way less nice when you realize that the ability become available at level 12. and bane (you know, that thing that cost a +1 level of enhancement and inquisitor get [for a short time] at level 5) is available at level 15.
I don't disagree that there are differences in the various effects available to various classes.
I do disagree that it represents an inherent imbalance or that it's 'unfair'. I see the Bladebound as a very powerful archetype that can hold its own against other combat classes out there.
Heck, I play a Magus archetype that didn't get a free 'magic weapon' and that lost the ability to enhance his weapon entirely, and I still think the class is incredibly potent and can go toe-to-toe to most other classes without batting an eye.
The black blade is free, so the Bladebound Magus should have wealth available to buy a backup weapon to cover any gaps in the black blade's abilities. Even better, he could increase his power in other ways (ability score enhancement, wondrous items, etc). The black blade could also be nice in a campaign with low WBL or DM or who doesn't allow magic shoppes but gives your Errol Flynn themed Duelist a +1 plant bane greataxe and says that the PCs should "grow with the story".
A black blade cost a arcana (and 1/2 arcana point every 3 levels), the equivalent of a feat, let's say Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
A crafting feat is worth 25% of your WBL (cfr. Ultimate Campaign).
At level 3-7 you are well ahead of the WBL of someone with a crafting feat, but only at level 5 that advantage is large enough to allow you to buy a level appropriate weapon, Between level 8 and 10 you are generally ahead but not by much. After level 10 you are behind what a guy with a crafting feat will get with the gap getting larger as your level increase.Sure, if the campaign don't follow WBL that argument become moot on both sides.
Just create an arcana that grants access to all the missing weapon abilities. If those extra enhancements are important enough to a Black Blade then they've got a way to get them.Look the level at which the different abilities become available. It is nice to be able to make my sword holy at the expense of arcana.
It is way less nice when you realize that the ability become available at level 12. and bane (you know, that thing that cost a +1 level of enhancement and inquisitor get [for a short time] at level 5) is available at level 15.
Or you could use the money you've 'saved' on the black blade and buy another weapon that does what you seem to think is needed, as stated already.
Just because an archtype gives options, doesn't mean it you should have every option available. That gets into 'must have' territory which is exactly what Paizo has said they don't want to do since the beginning.
Regardles, we're obviously outside the rules and into what people want, which is more appropriate in the suggestions/house rules forums. We've got the answer the OP asked, even if some don't like the answer.