"Kobold" Divine Dragon Disciple (Scaled Disciple) Build

[Xethik]

Looking for some help putting together/optimizing a build that uses the Kobold feat Scaled Disciple well. Let me say this: I'm a massive fan of Kobolds, but they kind of suck. Well, they do for this build. So I think the best course of action is to go Human, snag Racial Heritage (Kobold), and fly with it. Wonky? Yes. Against the rules? Doesn't seem like it. If the DM is bribed enough, I'm hoping I can run it as a larger Kobold/Wyvaran rather than a true Human. If I ever run the character, that is.

Ignoring all that weird "fluff", I'm looking to build the character rule-wise, but tidbits of fluff advice are welcome and appreciated.

Goals of the build:
Be better than a normal melee Cleric build, achieving decent levels of DPR without completely sacrificing spellcasting.

Work better or different enough from a standard Sorc/Paladin/Dragon Disciple build. I want this to feel different than that sort of character, if it can be managed, not just a relabel.

Come up with alternate plans. I'm a bit opposed to a Paladin dip personally, so if it is possible to come up with Build A that does include it and Build B that does not, that would be neat. If one build isn't a complete upgrade of another, keeping both on the table of discussion would be nice, especially if someone finds this thread later looking for a similar build. One for Inquisitor, one for Oracle, so on.

If possible, a level-by-level run-down from level 1 until a specific path loses relevance (usually 16 for a build like this I feel).

Spells that work well with the build.

Here are the ideas that I have brainstormed thus far:
Human with the Racial Heritage (Kobold) feat, the Scaled Disciple feat for starters. 20 point-buy would likely be something like this for an Oracle/X/Dragon Disciple:

STR: 20 (18+2) - Building around a high strength here due to DD boost
DEX: 10 - Dex to AC isn't too important for several Oracle mysteries
CON: 12 - A bit low, would be nice if higher
INT: 7 - Skills are not a focus of this build
WIS: 10 - Don't want an awful will-save, but can't afford to boost
CHA: 14 - Primary casting stat, boosting with magic items to keep spells castable

Notable melee dips:
Fighter - Unarmed Fighter or Weapon Master (Is natural weapons a choice or would it be claw/bite/tail?) Brawler would be nice if it applied to natural weapons. Gives bonus feats, heavy armor, weapons proficiencies... possibly bonus to damage.

Barbarian - Rage to produce an additional strength bonus. Can give more rounds of natural weapons, but not necessary (hopefully). Rage cycles nicely with Oracle Curse (Lame). Armored Hulk is a possible archetype for heavier armor. Could Prestige into Rage Prophet after DD seeing how Eldritch Knight is off the books.

Monk - Master of Many Styles is a good fit, Flurry is useless for this build. Lower BAB, no heavy armor, but good bonus feats, starts with Improved Unarmed Strike (see below), and improved damage die with unarmed strikes. 3/4 BAB, however.

Paladin - No archetypes stand out. Gives Char to saves, Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, heavy armor.

Ranger - Can get permanent claws, full BAB, favored enemy bonuses. Not too crazy about it, however. Doesn't give heavy armor, favored enemy can be limiting. Guide archetype could help with that.

Cavalier - Heavy armor, weapon proficiencies, but not much to write home about. Not crazy about mounts for a character like this and unmounted Cavaliers don't get much for a handful of levels.

To me, Barbarian seems like it would be the best. As much as I would love to get Gloves of Dueling and Weapon Training on a build like this, it doesn't seem feasible for the entire natural weapons group with less than 5 levels. Monk could also be a good choice, as they give plenty of solid feats for a small dip while improving Unarmed Strikes. I know using unarmed strikes might seem odd at first, but they are the only way (other than boot knives or those weird beard masks) to get iterative attacks to go alongside natural attacks at higher levels. Pre-6 BAB, it's probably best to use your attacks as primary and ignore "manufactured" weapons, but once the iterative attacks start piling on, it would seem silly to ignore them.

Feats of note:
Racial Heritage
Scaled Disciple
Tail Terror
A number of Weapon Focuses
Power Attack
Feral Combat Training, likely with Claws
Dragon Style
Dragon Ferocity when combined with Feral Combat Training
Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal) gives more claw/bite rounds and leads to...
Improved Eldritch Heritage for +2 Str (+4 at 15, and +6 at the elusive level 19)
A bit out there, but perhaps Two-Weapon Fighting and Double Slice? Really benefit from that large strength bonus.

Probably missing a handful, so hopefully someone can start pointing out the pieces I missed.

I'm thinking 3 levels in Oracle for the caster levels. In my opinion (which can be very wrong), I feel the Divine casting list is generally more sufficient for a buff-and-swing type of character when compared to the Arcane, and this character should use that to their advantage.

For curses, I'm thinking the Lame curse if going with Rage, otherwise Wolfscarred (and perhaps Deaf with Dual-cursed). Wolfscarred gives a bad bite attack and, perhaps more importantly, access to Magic Fang. Sadly, Greater Magic Fang doesn't kick in until 15th level, so... most likely never. Haunted and Legalistic are good choice, too.

Battle and Metal give access to Heavy Armor while Nature and Lore give Charisma to AC instead of Dex. Most likely, only one Revelations per Mystery is really even worth going for, so I think it depends on what I multiclass into. If heavy armor is already obtained, get Cha to AC. Otherwise, get the proficiency.

So, a lot of text here, and I'm just trying to get people started. Any help at all is appreciated, even if you have to call me an idiot.

[I Hate Nickelback]

I'd like to call you an idiot, but I haven't found a good reason to. Yet ;)

I see that you're looking more into combat then you are into spell casting. What kind of spells are you looking to specialize in? Save or sucks may be out of the question due to lost CL, so, what? Healing and buffing would be good options. Just something to think about.

I agree that, unless heavy armor proficiency is already obtained, you should get that over CHA to AC. Your CHA isn't *too* high because you're more combat oriented, which is fine, but the boost won't be huge. As for curses, lame, yes, if you get fast movement from barbarian. If, for whatever reason, you don't multiclass barbarian, tongues is a good curse IMO. Never underestimate how horribly crippling haunted can be. There was a thread around here (maybe someone after me knows the name) about someone who had serious problems with using wands of CLW in battle or something because of that curse. But yeah, lame or tongues. Lastly, look at the dark tapestry mystery. It doesn't do CHA to AC, but it does do tons of other really nice stuff. May not matter depending on how many levels in oracle you take.

I'd vote for a barbarian dip, though, even though you don't want it, it's hard to deny that paladin doesn't have a lot to offer. CHA to saves is AMAZING no matter how low your bonus is. Every +1 counts when it's against being dominated or losing another d6 of CON. Other than those two, no other dips would be as good, though nobody could argue that fighter would be BAD. As for archetypes, go heavy rager (I think that's what it's called, right?). You want that heavy armor proficiency.

Next on our list: STAY AWAY FROM TWO WEAPON FIGHTING. I'm glad we got that covered. But in all seriousness, no. You do not have the DEX for that build, not to mention that you're already very feat starved (racial heritage kobold+scaled disciple=not enough feats). <------- Mathematical proof you shouldn't waste time and feats on TWF.

Not to burst your bubble, but why natural attacks? I would think that a greatsword would be the way to go, you're proficient with it after all if you go battle or metal mystery. Oh, I recommend metal over battle, but either one is fine. Anyways, this frees up your elder itch heritage abyssal and let's you use it for eldritch heritage orc. None of this is to say that natural weapons would be a bad way to go, but I'd go greatsword. Less weapons to focus on being good with, and you get 1-1/2 STR mod to damage. Very nice.

One last thing, you mentioned possibly going into rage prophet. For the love of all things evil and destructive, please don't. If you want to rage cycle (you DO want to rage cycle) then just take the lame curse and be done with it.

I think I'm done with my rant. I usually don't post this much advice in one post, but I've been considering making a scaled disciple. I'll be watching this thread closely.

I hope this helped,
I Hate Nickelback

[Xethik]

About to try to get some sleep, 8:00am my time so I'm going to be brief.

Yeah, TWF seemed way out there, but I figured I'd throw it out in case I was missing something with Ranger (making getting those feats in particular easier).

I guess the reason I was thinking of focusing in on natural weapons was to try and get more out of the Racial Heritage (Kobold) mostly. Tail Terror would be adding one more attack onto a character with a whole handful more (claws and bite before looking elsewhere). That being said, the reason I stupidly didn't mention a two-handed weapon was just because it's a bit more clear cut with that; a build almost makes itself, with a couple exceptions here and there, while a natural weapon character requires a bit more... brainstorming? Without Feral Combat Training (Claws) and Dragon Ferocity, the claws are adding 1 Str as opposed to 1.5 Str, but if it was managed to be included that would boost up to 2 Str, right? Then you get some cruddy unarmed swings in. Probably not worth it, but I haven't looked in too deep yet, mostly brainstorming.

I mostly wanted to throw ideas out with the original post. I haven't put much thought into Inquisitor, for example, but that would probably work just fine, too.

Spell wise, definitely focusing on pure old buffs, with some healing here and there, perhaps a control spell or two. Ideally, start the fight with some longer duration spells running, move and cast first round or two, and then get into full attacks. Spells like Divine Favor/Power, Enlarge Person/Righteous Might, so on. Some cast and forget, some first round of combat until the end of the encounter spells. Pick up the standard great cleric spells (Restoration and the like), throw in some personal/party buffs, and go from there. Maybe some Draconic spells for fun if I get a chance to grab them, though most are domain locked.

And about Rage Prophet, I honestly haven't looked at it much at all. Didn't realized it dropped caster levels as much as Dragon Disciple while still being noticeably worse/awful. Guess it is Oracle from level 10 onward.

Oh, and about Mysteries. I absolutely love Dark Tapestry (and all the domains/bloodlines related to it). I've got a handful of character concepts build around them, but I hadn't thought of it for this guy. I'll take a look tomorrow. For the most part, I was just looking to get the Mithral Full Plate 3 Max Dex Bonus from Charisma to apply for a bit more beefiness, but it's something I haven't scoured over too much as of yet. It kind of just hit me last night that Racial Heritage can get Scaled Disciple and do some fun stuff (not having -6 Strength compared to most melee character races).

[I Hate Nickelback]

Ah, ok. I understand now that it was mostly a bunch of ideas and thoughts.

Well, look at the things I, and hopefully others, recommend. As I said, I need this thread just as much as you. If I think of/find anything else, I'll post it.

[I Hate Nickelback]

Well, I'm almost positive that two handed weapon is the way to go. Anything else is too feat heavy.

As for what levels to take in what, I'm basing my build options off of Oterisk's guide to the DD (if Oterisk ever reads this: absolutely amazing guide, very helpful). Since you're combat oriented, Martial 2/Caster 3/DD 10/Whatever you feel youre lacking after DD would be optimal.

So, the first option, which, despite what you may prefer, is a very good option:
(Anti)Paladin 2/Oracle (Dark Tapestry or Lore) 3/DD 10/X

This build, before you get into DD, would net you 3 levels of casting (2nd level spells) and +4 BAB. This is better, so far, than an arcane DD. Then you get the same DD progression as an arcane one, and, due to a generally inferior spell list, it'll even out a bit. This is a more defensive-tanky build because that's just how paladins are.

The second build would be:
Oracle (Battle or Metal, for heavy armor) 1/Barbarian 2/Oracle 2/DD 10/X

This build is less defensive (you don't have CHA to saves, for example) but more offensive (can you say rage?). The offense-defense balance is the main difference between the builds. Fluff too, lots of fluff difference.

The way I see it, compared to an arcane DD, you'll be much better in melee. With regards to spellcasting, you'll be worse, just because arcane lists are better than divine ones. Very solid builds all around. I'll help with feats and other stuff when you get back.

[Cheapy]

I recommend asking your GM for a more player friendly kobold race. They're meant to be an enemy race, so they are pretty weak. I believe super genius games has a kobold race that's a on par with the other races.

[Barry Armstrong]

*shrug* You can balance the melee suck of the Kobold racials with Barbarian Rage or Ranger Shapeshifter's bear form. There's plenty of ways to dip and make it work.

The best part? No one expects a Kobold to Hulk Rage and become Episode II Yoda in melee combat. The aftermath will be full of "WTF just happened".

[Xethik]

@I Hate Nickelback, that's pretty much the best I've come up with as of right now, too. Could take Armoured Hulk, losing a bit of speed for access to another Oracle Mystery, but Battle is probably a strong choice either way. I'm going to do my best to try and hunt for any other gems to add onto it, but the 1.5 Str bite and .5 Str tail are probably both usable and can both be fit in to add even more "oomf" to the full-attacks.
Oterisk's guide is something I've read before when helping my friend put together his own DD build. Pretty much well written across the board, beautifully put together, too. Ended up going the Greatsword route, worked well for him and it probably would have been crap if Oterisk didn't write that guide.

@Cheapy, that's obviously one solution, too. Going with Human and Racial Heritage, however, fits within the rules. As a DM, I love working with players and getting their characters to fit rule-wise and play-wise. Obviously, not every DM plays this way and, with this character at least, I'm not sure who the DM will be when I finally get a chance to play him. With my groups, I often DM, but I've been looking to get a break and play a character and I don't want to put my DM under pressure that he could be seen as playing favorites and giving me a boost in terms of combat power. I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but most new campaigns start out with one player saying "no power gaming or optimization crap this time guys, play a fun character" and then two weeks later people are coming to me for build advice. Giving the new guy this sort of headache isn't something I want.

To be perfectly honest, I've run an enhanced version of the Kobold (rebuilt using the Advanced Race Guide, I believe the stat penalty was much smaller [-2 Str, -2 Con, +2 Dex?] and they had a bonus feat) for an NPC the group became fond with so that he felt a bit more melee combat capable for the party without overshadowing the rest of the group (and so I wouldn't have to buff/nerf on the fly).

@Barry, that is also completely true. Losing a bit of damage here and there isn't the end of the world, the character matters more. It's something I can lose sight of, especially with the groups I play with, but it's still the essence of the game. It doesn't matter if I hit for 1d12 + 17 or 1d12 + 10, the fun doesn't change from numbers. If I do whip up a full build, it will be pretty easy subbing out Human for Kobold. Probably wouldn't change much other than the starting stats, feats would be roughly the same. Obviously an option.
Whenever I think of this character, I think of Enga from Rise of the Runelords (Book 4? I think). The Kobold Barbarian. Not the hardest hitter in the game, but she can certainly surprise any party.

Decided to read over my builds to see if I missed any interesting feats. I remembered about Martial Versatility, but that requires 4 levels of Fighter and would only really work for pure natural weapon fighting and, in the end, probably wouldn't be worth it (Feral Combat Training on all natural weapons would be nice, but unless I'm getting more on top of claws/bite/tail, likely not worthwhile). Plus, Fighter. Ew.

EDIT:

For mysteries, here is where I'm standing. Between Metal and Battle, I personally see Battle as better. The difference is mostly between the non-proficiency revelation. Battle gives Weapon Focus (a free feat, yay) that eventually scales up a wee bit. Can also give a once per day pounce movement through Surprise Charge. Rerolling initiative is also a pick here, something that could also be very strong. Metal, on the other hand, offers Armor Mastery. This only really shines if I can get my hands on Cha to AC, so that's kind of out. Dance of Metal gives me the +10 movement back from Lame, which is nice, but I'm not entirely sure if it beats out Surprise Charge or Weapon Focus.
Spell wise, they are incredibly similar at a glance. Lead Blades and Enlarge person accomplish similar goals. The difference is, I can't get Lead Blades from an ally, but I can get Enlarge Person. Still, I can't cast Lead Blades on my allies, either, so there is that. Between Keen Edge and Magic Vestments, both are very usable and would be used, but I can't get Keen Edge normally, so Metal edges out there. That trend mostly continues. Metal gives better spells or spells I normally have no access to, and probably wins there. So, for me at least, it seems to be Spells vs Revelations. I'm leaning towards the spells the more I think about it, but does anyone have something to add there?

For Dark Tapestry vs Lore, Dark Tapestry gives a nice Alter Self and Darkvision or some utility abilities. Lore gives Cha to AC/Reflex and some more utilityish powers, mostly revolving around Knowledge. Between spell lists, I think I prefer Dark Tapestry, mostly due to Black Tentacles.

[Xethik]

Anyone have any tips on feats, mysteries, and the whatnot? I'll hopefully be posting my level-by-level feat list whenI get back to my desktop later today, but it would be nice to get some more opinions on the build and perhaps some spell suggestions that might be a bit out of the ordinary.

[I Hate Nickelback]

I think it will be easier to help with feats and what not if you can answer this question: are you taking armored hulk and dark tapestry, or are you taking some other archetype and battle?

Once you've found time, post your build and we'll fill in the blanks. Also, I was very pleased to see this thread again. I had figured it was forgotten.

[Xethik]

That's the question right now. I guess I'm going to write up both, see how I like each and how they compare, and go from there.

I'm also looking into rage powers right now that could benefit from early rage cycling. Seems like there are not many worth taking over Reckless Abandon, even if it is stuck at a +1/-1.

Edit: Even if I'm not focusing on natural attacks, the Gore from fiend totem is probably a nice supplement to my bite/tail. For some reason, I was thinking gore attacks only worked on a charge.

[I Hate Nickelback]

I'm honestly not very familiar with barbarian rage powers, but I'll happily take a look at them, totem trees mostly. Once again, I'll help fill in blanks when you post each build.

I'm still going to recommend dark tapestry/armored hulk over something else/battle. I also agree that, since you're focusing on combat rather than spells, battle is better for you.

[Xethik]

Divine Dragon Disciple

Barb 1: Racial Heritage (Kobold), Tailed Terror, 1 bab
Barb 2: Rage Power: Lesser Fiend Totem, 2 bab
Oracle 1: X mystery, Power Attack, Revelation 1, 1 sl
Oracle 2: 3 bab
Oracle 3: Revelation 2, Scaled Disciple, 4 bab
Dragon Disciple 1:
Dragon Disciple 2: Skill Focus (planes), Improved Initiative, 2 sl, 5 bab
Dragon Disciple 3: 6 bab
Dragon Disciple 4: Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal), 3 sl, 7 bab
Oracle 4: 8 bab
Oracle 5: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Abyssal), 4 sl
Oracle 6: 9 bab
Oracle 7: Revelation 3, Extra Rage, 5 sl, 10 bab
Oracle 8: 11 bab
Oracle 9: Divine Interference/Warrior Priest, 6 sl
Oracle 10: 12 bab
Oracle 11: Revelation 4, Extend Spell, 7 sl, 13 bab 
Oracle 12: 14 bab
Oracle 13: ???, 8 sl
Oracle 14: 15 bab

Notes: can use Dragon Disciple 2 feat to get Power Attack instead of Improv Init. This way, I can throw Weapon Focus in early and get Power Attack later if I can't get Weapon Focus through a mystery ( Battle ). For Dark Tapestry, what revelations do you recommend?

I'm still away from my computer with my builds on it, so this is coming off memory. I'm thinking of fitting Extend Spell in earlier, but I'm not sure how necessary that is on Oracles ( as compared to clerics ). Paladin would be very similar but I'd have to find a replacement for Extra Rage.

[I Hate Nickelback]

First thing first, I don't see scaled disciple.

[Xethik]

Level 3 Oracle (level 5) feat. I did it in a notepad program, so not the fanciest word processor. Plus, I was trying to track BAB and max spell level, if that wasn't clear.

[I Hate Nickelback]

Oh, sorry. Now I feel stupid >.<

I vote power attack before Improved Initiative; your job won't be to go first, that's the party wizard.

As for revelations for Dark Tapestry, your first should be Cloak of Darkness. That AC bonus will be very helpful, at all levels, and I believe activating it is a free action. Your second should be pierce the veil, because humans don't have Darkvision. Later on, many forms and wings of darkness will both be useful.

[Suthainn]

Rather than Abyssal you may want to consider Orc as an Eldritch heritage bloodline. Still get a strength boost plus... Touch of Rage and the Optimistic Gambler trait as a DD (esp. with Robes of Arcane Heritage if your GM rules they work with it, could go either way as it's not written explicitly) can be... insane. (Character level -2)/2 as a bonus to hit/damage/Will saves for 1+d4 rounds as a standard action.

[blackbloodtroll]

An Aasimar, with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait, can take the Racial Heritage(Kobold) feat.

Also, Aasimar can be small.

Thought you all should know.

[Xethik]

@Suthainn, I really wish I could get optimistic gambler. In my campaigns, I don't allow AP traits (unless we are running that AP of course) and heavily limit monster feats, so I have a feeling the same will be applied when I'm a player. But if that trait is on the table, it is most definitely the way to go, perhaps even Quicken Spell-Like Ability, too.
Without the trait, though, I feel the extra dragon bite rounds per day are probably worth it (assuming my DM allows that). Robes of Arcane Heritage are definitely a must have once the strength bonus comes into play, too.

@bbt, I actually forgot about that. I was thinking Scion of Humanity was a feat for some odd reason, making the build even more feat starved, but I can almost definitely spare one feat. Hm, time to look into that a bit. If I remember, Angel-Blooded gives +Str, +Cha. Plus, the favored class bonus could have some potential.

[blackbloodtroll]

Counting as Aasimar, Human, and Kobold, could be beneficial.

[Xethik]

It will at least make for some good tavern chat.

"Well, I'm just a human, but I have some ancient ancestry of angels and kobolds. It's a long story..."

Kind of odd that you can take Scion of Humanity as a non-human Aasimar, but then again the rules are under the assumption that you are a human.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, there are also the Human, Aasimar, and Kobold Racial feats and Racial Class archetypes, along with Racial magic items.

[Xethik]

Hmm, racial magic items. I completely forgot about that. I'll have to peruse the prd.

[I Hate Nickelback]

I'd still go human, as that bonus feat helps with the feat starved-ness.

Have you decided on what mystery you'll be taking?

[Xethik]

Sorry about the delay, I've been out and about doing family things. End of summer and all that.

For mystery, I'm leaning towards Battle over anything else for a long term character. I just feel that there are more revelations that have "oomph" later on for a character like this. If the character was more not expected to reach higher levels, I'd probably go Dark Tapestry, especially if I could get to the Wings before the character was done with.

Between Human and Aasimar, I could drop Improved Initiative all together and have relatively the same feat structure, waiting on Power Attack until I get it from Dragon Disciple. Not optimal, but I feel that it could work out.

Not sure if getting the extra Charisma is worth much, though. The one thing Aasimar does have going for it is that I could probably get the whole "this character is actually a Kobold" thing to fit better.

[ShadowcatX]

Cloak of Darkness wouldn't stack with normal armor so that makes it feel like a pretty poor choice. I'd probably go with lore for the sidestep secret. That'll give you as good, if not better AC, than heavy armor.

I think Oracle 4, Barb 1 is better than Oracle 3, Barb 2. The extra level of oracle gives an additional spell casting level (not the primary concern, I know but incredibly powerful), but really, the best you're getting at Barb 2 is a rough equivalent to weapon focus and +2 rounds of rage. Oracle 15, Barb 1, DD 4, still pulls off 9th level spells. . .

If you go the paladin 2 / Oracle 3 route, I think you're better off tanking some on Dex and Wis to get a better charisma, which means again that lore oracle will be better for you than battle.

I think grabbing a feat that gives you a tail attack when you don't actually possess a tail is very questionable.

Really, I think nature would be even better than lore. It can still get cha to AC like the lore oracle, but also gains it to CMD, has barkskin at level 4 (not a serious factor for the paladin build, but very nice for the barb), and if you want a mount you can keep it at pretty much full oracle level for the cost of 1 feat.

Dual cursed is another thing to consider. You don't gain barkskin if you go nature or enlarge person if battle, but ill omen is a very solid spell and misfortune affects allies as well as enemies effectively granting you and all your friends one free reroll per day at range.

[Xethik]

True on the Cloak of Darkness, but doesn't it end up scaling a bit higher than heavy armor, anyways? Maybe I did my math wrong but I thought by 12th level it was actually better than Full-plate. I'd have to look at it again.

True with the Barb 1 vs Barb 2. Though getting an extra natural attack is tempting, it might be better to go with a spellcaster level.

With the Tail Terror thing, which is a beast of it's own, I'd like to not include too much discussion on whether a non-tailed race can pick up the feat. But, for my group at least, I don't see it being an issue.

EDIT: I almost forgot. My one problem with Lore is that, outside of Sidestep Secret, I'm not even amazed by any of the revelations. Maybe it's because I undervalue utility combat (knowledge checks) and out of combat abilities, but the rest of the mystery is awful. Perhaps the massive AC buff is worth it, but it's tough for me to rationalize.

What I'm curious about is if there was an official ruling regarding Nature's Whispers giving Cha to AC while ignoring max Dex to AC.

EDIT 2: I somehow missed the second half of your post, ShadowcatX. I'm also a bigger fan of Nature over Lore. While Lore's knowledge utility stuff is good at what it does, I'm not in love with doing that. Getting some crappier Nature revelations would at least see some use, even if I wouldn't use the mount as an actual mount. Plus, I also like Nature's spell list quite a bit more than Lore's.

With a Paladin build, I could see myself going Dual cursed Wolfscarred/Deaf for the addition of Magic Fang/bite attack and deaf to make up for the spellcast failure. Nature would allow me to get Transcendental Bond to make up for the inability to communicate at least a little bit, and we use the PFS rules for lip reading in my group, so there's that. A bit crippling on initiative and perception, but not the end of the world.

[I Hate Nickelback]

I'd still go dark tapestry, as cloak of darkness is just amazing.

Don't do lore. Remember, you are focusing more on melee than spellcasting, so the charisma bonus won't be that high. If you want a mystery that adds a good AC bonus, reread this post, starting at "I'd still go dark tapestry."

I seriously wouldn't recommend nature either. The main plus of that mystery is the bonded mount, but since it'll never be that good, you have better mysteries to choose from.

Oracle 3 vs oracle 4 is entirely dependent on your desired melee:spellcasting ratio for this character. With the feats you want to take, and your lower charisma, you'll never be great with spells. No need to try and focus now.

Human over aasimar: human gives a bonus feat, whereas aasimar will require you to use up a feat. The main weakness of this build is the lack of feats at lower levels. Sure, the charisma bonus is nice, but, then again, you weren't focusing on spells, now were you?

With your talk of paladin, is that now an option?

Lastly, remember: you can forgo the natural attacks (though a tail would just be AWESOME) for a greatsword. I just love the idea of a human whose latent draconic heritage caused him to grow a tail.

[ShadowcatX]

I Hate Nickelback wrote:

I'd still go dark tapestry, as cloak of darkness is just amazing.

Don't do lore. Remember, you are focusing more on melee than spellcasting, so the charisma bonus won't be that high. If you want a mystery that adds a good AC bonus, reread this post, starting at "I'd still go dark tapestry."

Repeating this multiple times doesn't make it good advice. Cloak of Darkness is going to be better than full plate at Oracle level 15. This build doesn't ever get to Oracle level 15. Of course, that's not taking into account that armor can be enchanted.

Quote:

I seriously wouldn't recommend nature either. The main plus of that mystery is the bonded mount, but since it'll never be that good, you have better mysteries to choose from.

If by "never be that good" you mean will potentially be level -1 (or even level +X, if aasimar), then you're correct. However, at that point, I think we have vastly different definitions of "not that good."

Quote:

Oracle 3 vs oracle 4 is entirely dependent on your desired melee:spellcasting ratio for this character. With the feats you want to take, and your lower charisma, you'll never be great with spells. No need to try and focus now.

Buffs don't care what the character's charisma score is. Nor do summons. Or healing spells. Or animate dead.

Quote:

Human over aasimar: human gives a bonus feat, whereas aasimar will require you to use up a feat. The main weakness of this build is the lack of feats at lower levels. Sure, the charisma bonus is nice, but, then again, you weren't focusing on spells, now were you?

Here I don't entirely disagree. If you're going with the whole growing a tail and natural weapons and etc. then human is probably better. If, however, you're going with a 2 handed weapon, then you've suddenly got a lot more feats free and can afford sacrificing a feat to get racial features and a bonus to your spell casting stat.

As to missing the last half of my post earlier, sometimes I edit stuff in as I think of it. (Pushing the submit button is a sure fire way for me to go "Oh, I should've added X."

[Xethik]

I'm about to head to a party, so I'm going to be a bit brief here.

Yeah, I goofed my math on Cloak of Darkness. I think I was assuming some favored class bonuses from Aasimar to get it a bit earlier. So full-plate is definitely going to be a go-to.
Another thing I forgot about was that the Alter Self/Beast Form X from Dark Tapestry would override my inherent (Dragon Bloodline) natural armor and weapons, correct? That's kind of a downer.

With the Bonded Mount, I'm not sure how much mounted combat I would do, but it's at least better than most of Lore. Plus, I can just use it as an extra guy on the field. Oh, and Aasimar gives me access to Celestial Servant though I'm already a bit feat hungry as is. Not sure how great that feat is, anyways.

The only reason why the extra Charisma is tempting is because of any Cha -> AC/Saves kind of effect. I think that, with a Paladin build, Aasimar is very tempting. +1 to all saves/AC is worth a feat imho.

Speaking of Paladin, I'd like to clarify that I, personally, am not a huge fan of Paladin multiclassing. That being said, it's definitely strong (stronger, probably) and I'd like to get a build for both Barb and Paladin. Once I'm done with the thread, I think I'm going to edit the OP with the builds in case anyone finds this thread through Google in the future. I'd like the have options for that.

The build I'm going for now is Greatsword + natural attacks. I'll be getting a bite through Dragon Disciple, and adding a tail to that probably won't hurt. I can make the iterative attacks with the greatsword and then add in the bite/tail, doing practically another greatsword attack worth of damage. (1d4/6 [does the tail do 1d6 for medium?] + 1/2 Strength Bonus + Power Attack and 1d6 + 1.5 Strength Bonus + Power Attack) I feel like that's a pretty nice supplement to the Greatsword. Obviously, it only works with full attacks, but that's expected.

[I Hate Nickelback]

Shadow kitty, you're quite skillful at wording everything so as to maximize offensivness to a person who was just trying to help. Too bad everyone doesn't have as much tact as you.