| andreww |
So, a recent thread has got me thinking of how to best combine the Cleric/Wizard/MT set up for summoning. I am looking at a primarily Cleric based summoner who uses the Wizard levels for buffs, Divinations and other effects that don't mind about caster level. Some big questions remain for discussion:
1. Starting alignment and Deity choice. The main reason this is an issue is Sacred Summons. Casting 1 round cast time spells in combat is just asking to be ganked. Standard action summons also give your summoned monsters a chance to act on round 1 and let you move. BUT, the feat only works on creatures with an alignment subtype that matches your deity. These are few and far between so you need to look carefully at the options on the list. I tend to prefer Lawful Evil and Lawful Good but your choice may vary.
2. Linked to this is the impact of the feat Summon Good Monster. This adds more monsters to the list BUT most of them do not have an alignment subtype and therefore don't get summoned as a standard action. For a moment I had visions of summoning loads of Young Gold Dragons but it died at the point I realised they wouldn't qualify for Sacred Summons.
3. Linked to the above is choice of Deity for Domain choices. You will be getting level 6 or 7 Wizard casting so only the higher level Domain spells are of interest if looking to cherry pick. Also it is quite possible that you will not reach the level 8 Domain Power or if you do it will be very near the end making that less of an issue. For example, Travel, normally an amazing Domain is a much less tempting pick when you realise may never get Dimensional Hop and you have access to most of its good spells from your Wizard casting.
4. Which brings me to the last big question. Early entry means at Character Level 13 you are going to be working as Cleric12/Wizard 11. Very respectable with many Summon Monster VI castings. Things however then really start to change. What do you do when you have finished Mystic Theurge? More Cleric levels are obvious for the next 5 levels to get to level 9 spells. This makes your wizard casting much less useful for extra summons. You then have a choice, two more Cleric levels for extra 9th level spell slots and level 8 Domain powers or two more Wizard levels for access to level 7 spells which could be used on combat viable SM VII spells. The latter option might seem to be the strongest but, for the summoner I tend towards extra Cleric levels. More of your highest level spell slots means more multiple summon effects.
So, having had a think about those issues I decided to put together a full Cleric2/Wizard1/Mystic Theurge10/Cleric7 build. I went Aasimar for early entry. You could go Human for the extra feat but you would have that horrible section in the middle where you utterly suck. The two options would end up at a similar place but early entry makes life much more pleasant in the level 4-16 phase. You could go Fate Inquisition/Trickery and be Human but you lose the juicy spells from your second Domain. While you probably are only getting new spells from the 7-9 group you are casting all of them using Wisdom so your DC's might actually be relevant.
Feat choice order is:
1: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3: Augmented Summon
5: Superior Summoning
7: Sacred Summons (limited options at this level dependant on alignment)
9: Persistent Spell
11: Quicken Spell
13: Heighten Spell
15: Preferred Spell (Plane Shift) (This can be anything really I just love Plane Shift for offence and travel)
17: Spell Perfection (Summon Monster VIII)
19: Preferred Spell (Summon Monster VIII)
Your metamagic feats can be anything really although I still highly recommend Quicken for action economy and Heighten to qualify for Preferred Spell. A second Preferred spell isn't really necessary if you want something else. The Good version probably drops it for Summon Good Monster.
If your GM allows retraining then I would retrain both of the last two feats to Summon Monster IX after you get access to it at character level 18.
Assuming he allows you to do so you are looking at +8 strength and Con for your summons with SMIX. You can summon 1 Ice Devil or, more effectively 1d3+2 Barbed Devils or 1d4+3 Bone Devils, all as a standard action. Spell Perfection doubles the benefit of both Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning. These summons have a wide range of special attacks and spell like abilities. If you have the time then you can also rely on the other creatures off the list. 1d4+3 Succubi throwing DC22 Charm Monsters at the enemy every round is not to be sniffed at.
Finally here is the full build at level 20.
LN Medium Outsider (native)
Init +13; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +46
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Defense
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AC 42, touch 23, flat-footed 36 (+8 armour, +6 shield, +6 Dex, +5 natural, +5 deflection)
hp 192 (9d8+11d6+100)
Fort +20, Ref +18, Will +32
Defensive Abilities: copy cat, master's illusion (9 rounds/day) (dc 27); Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks dazing touch (16/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Dazing Touch (16/day), Master's Illusion (9 rounds/day) (DC 27)
Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 21):
9 (5/day) Overwhelming Presence (DC 32), Gate, Miracle (DC 32) (x2), Time Stop, Heal, Mass
8 (5/day) Summon Monster VIII (x3), Blessing of Fervor, Quick (DC 27), Confusion, Quick (DC 27), Spell Immunity, Greater
7 (6/day) Repulsion (DC 30), Summon Monster VII (x3), Forbid Action, Greater, Prstnt (DC 28), Charm Monster, Prstnt (DC 28), Dictum
6 (6/day) Antilife Shell, Heal (x2), Dispel Magic, Greater, Harm (DC 29) (x2), Confusion, Prstnt (DC 27)
5 (7/day) Spell Resistance, Breath of Life (DC 29) (x3), Commune, Charm Monster (DC 28), Forbid Action, Greater (DC 28) (x2)
4 (7/day) Blessing of Fervor (DC 27) (x3), Planar Adaptation, Death Ward, Dimensional Anchor, Confusion (DC 27), Air Walk
3 (7/day) Remove Blindness/Deafness, Animate Dead, Invisibility Purge, Water Breathing, Speak with Dead (DC 26), Daylight, Suggestion (DC 26), Delay Poison, Communal
2 (7/day) Remove Paralysis, Calm Emotions, Grace (x6)
1 (8/day) Liberating Command, Murderous Command (DC 24) (x2), Remove Fear, Hide from Undead (DC 24), Sanctuary (DC 24), Disguise Self, Protection from Chaos, Remove Sickness (DC 25)
0 (at will) Guidance, Purify Food and Drink (DC 23), Detect Magic, Detect Poison
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 12):
6 (2/day) True Seeing, Summon Monster VI, Mirror Image, Quick
5 (3/day) Overland Flight (x2), Teleport (x2)
4 (4/day) Elemental Body I, Detect Scrying, Invisibility, Greater (x2), Dimension Door
3 (6/day) Protection from Energy (x2), Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Suggestion (DC 20), Suggestion (DC 20), Resist Energy, Communal (x2)
2 (6/day) Resist Energy (x2), Mirror Image (x2), Invisibility (x2), See Invisibility
1 (6/day) See Alignment, Liberating Command (x2), Charm Person (DC 18) (x2), Feather Fall (DC 18), Mount
0 (at will) Message, Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 17), Prestidigitation (DC 17)
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 36, Cha 7
Base Atk +11; CMB +12; CMD 35
Feats: Augment Summoning, Heighten Spell, Persistent Spell, Preferred Spell (Plane Shift), Preferred Spell (Summon Monster IX), Quicken Spell, Sacred Summons, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Perfection (Summon Monster IX), Superior Summoning
Traits: Magical Knack (Cleric [Separatist]), Reactionary
Skills: Acrobatics +8, Diplomacy +21, Fly +20, Knowledge (arcana) +30, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +30, Knowledge (nature) +30, Knowledge (planes) +30, Knowledge (religion) +30, Perception +46, Sense Motive +44, Spellcraft +35, Survival +13 (+15 to avoid becoming lost); Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Fly
Languages: Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Dwarven, Elven, Infernal, Sylvan
Special Qualities +4 bonus on initiative checks, arcane bonds (arcane familiar, scorpion, greensting), aura, cleric channel negative energy 5d6 (1/day) (dc 12), combined spells (5th), domains (trickery), empathic link with familiar, forbidden rites (charm), forewarned +1, opposition schools (evocation, necromancy), prescience (10/day), share spells with familiar, specialized schools (foresight), spell synthesis (1/day), spontaneous casting,
Gear: Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), Rod of absorption (50 spell levels), Sandals of quick reaction, +5 Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armor +5, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +6), Book of extended summoning (greater, lawful), Bracers of armor +8, Cloak of resistance +5, Eyes of the eagle, Gloves of elvenkind, Handy haversack (2 @ 10 lbs), Headband of mental prowess (Int & Wis +6), Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (dark blue rhomboid), Ioun stone (dusty rose prism), Ioun stone (orange prism), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Manual of quickness of action +2, Ring of freedom of movement, Ring of protection +5, Tome of clear thought +4, Tome of understanding +5, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs)
And finally the upgraded stats for the main summons, applying the benefits of doubled Augment Summoning and Superior Summoning.
AC32/14/27, Fort 19, Ref 14, Will 12, HP 217, SR 24
DR 10/good, Immune Fire, Cold, Poison, Resist Acid 10
Speed 40, Fly 60, Good
Fear Aura: 10' DC 22
Spear: +21/16/11 2d6+1d6cold+28 plus slow DC23 fort, 1d6 rounds
Bite: +14 2d6+18
Tail: +14, 3d6+18 +slow DC23
Combat Reflexes (Dex21), Cleave
Spell Likes (CL 13)
Constant: Fly
At Will: Cone of Cold (DC20), Ice Storm, Persistent Image (DC20), Wall of Ice (DC19)
1d3+2 Barbed Devil (medium) Per 21, see in darkness
AC 26/16/20, Fort 18, Ref 14, Will 8, HP 186, SR 22
DR 10/good, Immune: Fire, Poison, Resist Acid 10, Cold 10, Speed 30
2 Claws +18, 2d8+22 (19-20) plus Fear DC20, 1d4 rounds plus Grab (CMB 26), 3d8+15 per grapple check
Combat Reflxes (Dex 23), Cleave
Spell Likes (CL12)
At Will: Hold Person (DC17), Major Image (DC17), Produce Flame, Pyrotechnics (DC16), Scorching Ray (2 rayes)
1/day: Order's Wrath (DC 18)
1d4+3 Bone Devils (Large) Per +19, see in darkness
AC 25/14/20, Fort 14, Ref 12, Will 7, HP 145, SR 20
DR 10/good, Immune: Fire, Poison, Resist Acid 10, Cold 10, Speed 40, Fly 60 good
Bite: +18, 1d8+9
2 Claws: +18 1d6+9
Sting: +18, 3d4+9+poison DC24 Fort, 1d3 str, 1/round, 6 rounds
Combat Reflexes (Dex 21)
Spell Likes (CL12)
Constant: Fly
At Will: Dimensional Anchor, Invisibility, Major Image (DC17), Wall of Ice
3/day: Quickened Invisibility (self)
| andreww |
The druid is OK but Summon Natures Ally really is not as good as Summon Monster. You don't get the same range of spell like abilities or the smite affect from the celestial or fiendish template. I am also not sure how the Druid is managing early entry which is the only reason why MT doesn't suck horribly through the early - mid levels.
Anyway I have been thinking about how this would change for a PFS game. Still Aasimar, still Cleric/Wizard as a base. Because I wont be seeing spell perfection most of the metamagoc feats can go allowing for yet more Initiative.
LN Medium Outsider (native)
Init +14; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +28
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 15, flat-footed 21 (+4 armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (2d8+10d6+36)
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +20
Defensive Abilities copy cat (su) (10/day); Resist acid 5, cold 5, electricity 5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Morningstar +7 (1d8+2/x2)
Special Attacks dazing touch (10/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Copy Cat (Su) (10/day), Dazing Touch (10/day), See Invisibility (1/day)
Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 11):
6 (2/day) Heal, Mislead, Summon Monster VI
5 (3/day) Wall of Stone (DC 23), Breath of Life (DC 23), Charm Monster (DC 22), Plane Shift (DC24)
4 (4/day) Death Ward, Order's Wrath (DC 21), Dimensional Anchor, Confusion (DC 21), Aura of Doom
3 (6/day) Wind Wall, Invisibility Purge, Dispel Magic, Speak with Dead (DC 20), Daylight, Suggestion (DC 20), Delay Poison, Communal
2 (6/day) Remove Paralysis, Calm Emotions (DC 19), Grace (x5)
1 (6/day) Murderous Command (x2) (DC 18), Remove Fear, Sanctuary (DC 18), Disguise Self, Protection from Chaos, Remove Sickness (DC 19)
0 (at will) Guidance, Purify Food and Drink (DC 17), Detect Magic, Detect Poison
Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 12):
5 (2/day) Overland Flight, Prying Eyes, Teleport
4 (4/day) Elemental Body I, Invisibility, Greater (x2), Dimension Door, Arcane Eye
3 (4/day) Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Haste (x2), Resist Energy, Communal (x2)
2 (5/day) Mirror Image (x2), Invisibility (x2), See Invisibility, Alter Self
1 (5/day) See Alignment, Liberating Command (x2), Silent Image (x2) (DC 15), Mage Armor
0 (at will) Message, Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 14), Prestidigitation (DC 14)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 25, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 21
Feats: Augment Summoning, Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Preferred Spell (Summon Monster V), Sacred Summons, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Superior Summoning
Traits: Magical Knack (Wizard), Reactionary
Skills: Acrobatics +5, Diplomacy +13, Fly +10, Knowledge (arcana) +19, Knowledge (planes) +19, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +28, Sense Motive +24, Spellcraft +13, Stealth +14, Survival +7 (+9 to avoid becoming lost); Racial Modifiers +2 Acrobatics, +2 Fly
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Dwarven, Elven, Infernal
Special Qualities +4 bonus on initiative checks, arcane bonds (arcane familiar, scorpion, greensting), aura, cleric channel negative energy 1d6 (1/day) (dc 9), combined spells (5th), domains (trickery), empathic link with familiar, forbidden rites (charm), forewarned +1, opposition schools (evocation, necromancy), prescience (7/day), share spells with familiar, specialized schools (foresight), spontaneous casting
Gear: Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day), +3 Mithral Buckler, +1 Morningstar, Amulet of natural armor +1, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Book of extended summoning (greater, lawful), Cloak of resistance +3, Eyes of the eagle, Feather step slippers, Gloves of elvenkind, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of mental prowess (Int & Wis +4) (Knowled, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs)
Combat stats for the two main augmented summon options at this point. Lower level options are really a bit rubbish so the Good version using Summon Good Monster may be better off when limited to this level although there are very few decent Good subtype summons at level 5 and 6 so you are probably reduced to summoning multiple Lantern Archons.
Serving a Chaotic Evil deity is actually a potential prospect. The Shadow Demon and Succubus are both very strong although you only have 2 level 6 spell slots. Multiple Babau's are OK and SMV will get you 1d4+1 Dretch which can all cast Stinking Cloud although you will need to speak Abyssal to command them.
Erinyes, Medium, Per 16, true seeing, see in darkness
AC23/17/16, F 13, R12, W7, HP 112
DR5/good, Immune Fire Poison, Resist Acid 10, Cold 10, SR 19
Speed 30, Fly 50, good
Longsword: +17/12, 1d8+11
Longbow: +14/14/9 1d8+6+1d6 fire
Rope: +15 touch, entangle, range 30, DC20
Combat Reflexes, Mobility, Point Blank Shot
Spell Likes (CL12):
At Will: Fear (single target DC19), Minor Image (DC17), Unholy Blight (DC19)
Level 5:
Xill, Medium, Per+13, Darkvision 60'
AC 21/14/17, F10, R10, W6, HP 85, SR17
Shortswords: +15/15/10, 1d6+5
Claw: +15, 1d4+5 plus grab (CMB 18)
Bite: +9, 1d3+2 plus paralysis DC18, 1d4 hours
or
4 claws: +15, 1d4+5 plus grab (CMB 18)
Bite: +14, 1d3+5 plus paralysis DC18, 1d4 hours
Combat Reflexes (Dex 18)
| andreww |
And for comparison here we have the Cleric 2/Empyreal Sorcerer 1/MT9 PFS version.
Changes include a move to Human for the extra feat. You don't need the extra Domain spells now as sharing a casting stat makes the Sorcerer spells effective. No need for Preferred Spell either as your summons are coming from the Sorcerer slots. I also want the metamagic feats again to use them on the fly for sorcerer spells. In particular they make the battlefield control very potent given their already high DC's.
Str 7 is a bit of a killer in the early levels so you may want to play around with the stat allocation. You could drop Int and Dex to 12 to bring Str up to 12 so you can wear some armour and hang around in melee providing a flanking bonus.
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +29
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Defense
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AC 23, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+4 armor, +4 shield, +3 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 89 (2d8+10d6+36)
Fort +13, Ref +10, Will +23
Defensive Abilities copy cat (su) (12/day)
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Special Attacks heavenly fire (12/day)
Spell-Like Abilities Augury (1/day), Copy Cat (Su) (12/day)
Sorcerer (Wildblooded) Spells Known (CL 12):
5 (5/day) Summon Monster V
4 (7/day) Elemental Body I, Invisibility, Greater
3 (8/day) Stinking Cloud (DC 23), Dispel Magic, Haste
2 (8/day) Create Pit (DC 22), Mirror Image, Glitterdust (DC 22), Blindness/Deafness (DC 21)
1 (9/day) Liberating Command, Silent Image (DC 20), Mage Armor, Charm Person (DC 20), Disguise Self
0 (at will) Acid Splash, Arcane Mark, Disrupt Undead, Message, Light, Mage Hand, Open/Close (DC 19), Ghost Sound (DC 19), Prestidigitation (DC 19)
Cleric (Separatist) Spells Prepared (CL 11):
6 (2/day) Heal, Summon Monster VI, Confusion, Prstnt (DC 23)
5 (4/day) Breath of Life (DC 25), Plane Shift (DC 25), Commune, Shield of Faith, Quick
4 (5/day) Death Ward, Order's Wrath (DC 23), Dimensional Anchor, Confusion (DC 23), Confusion (DC 23), Freedom of Movement, Debilitating Portent
3 (6/day) Invisibility Purge, Speak with Dead (DC 22), Stone Shape, Sanctuary, Prstnt (DC 20), Delay Poison, Communal, Resist Energy, Communal
2 (6/day) Resist Energy (x2), Invisibility (x2), Grace (x4)
1 (7/day) Shield of Faith (x4), Sanctuary (x3) (DC 20), Disguise Self
0 (at will) Guidance, Stabilize, Detect Magic, Detect Poison
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 7, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 28, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +3; CMD 16
Feats: Augment Summoning, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Quicken Spell, Sacred Summons, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Superior Summoning
Traits: Magical Knack (Sorcerer [Wildblooded]), Underbridge Dweller (Magnimar)
Skills: Bluff +5, Diplomacy +16, Disguise +5, Fly +7, Heal +11, Intimidate +1, Knowledge (arcana) +17, Knowledge (planes) +10, Knowledge (religion) +10, Perception +29, Sense Motive +24, Spellcraft +11, Use Magic Device +5
Languages Celestial, Common, Infernal
Special Qualities aura, cleric channel negative energy 1d6 (1/day) (dc 9), combined spells (5th), domains (trickery), forbidden rites (fate inquisition), mutated bloodlines (empyreal), spontaneous casting
Gear: +3 Mithral Buckler, Amulet of natural armor +2, Belt of physical might (Dex & Con +2), Book of extended summoning (lawful), Circlet of persuasion, Cloak of resistance +4, Eyes of the eagle, Feather step slippers, Gloves of elvenkind, Handy haversack (empty), Headband of inspired wisdom +6
| Nimrodii |
@andreww how are you entering into mystic theurge without the being able to cast 2nd lvl arcane and divine spells? Cleric doesn't get them until 3rd lvl and sorcerer until 4th. Am I missing something?
Shfish
|
Sorry..Had the level of speak with animals wrong in my mind...
The druid is OK but Summon Natures Ally really is not as good as Summon Monster. You don't get the same range of spell like abilities or the smite affect from the celestial or fiendish template. I am also not sure how the Druid is managing early entry which is the only reason why MT doesn't suck horribly through the early - mid levels.
Anyway I have been thinking about how this would change for a PFS game. Still Aasimar, still Cleric/Wizard as a base. Because I wont be seeing spell perfection most of the metamagoc feats can go allowing for yet more Initiative.
** spoiler omitted **...
|
Shfish
|
Ok, so for serpent shaman you can get get the trickery domain...so with the right combo it works. The "draw" to Druid is while the nature ally list may not be as nice, it "can" be more appropriate a in certain circumstances, you spontaneously do these, and the feats that buff summons I mentioned earlier require it...if you do 2 sorcerer or wizard and 1 Druid, you will essentially only be 1 cl off for your summon monster stuff ...
Sorry..Had the level of speak with animals wrong in my mind...
andreww wrote:The druid is OK but Summon Natures Ally really is not as good as Summon Monster. You don't get the same range of spell like abilities or the smite affect from the celestial or fiendish template. I am also not sure how the Druid is managing early entry which is the only reason why MT doesn't suck horribly through the early - mid levels.
Anyway I have been thinking about how this would change for a PFS game. Still Aasimar, still Cleric/Wizard as a base. Because I wont be seeing spell perfection most of the metamagoc feats can go allowing for yet more Initiative.
** spoiler omitted **...
| andreww |
Ok, so for serpent shaman you can get get the trickery domain...so with the right combo it works. The "draw" to Druid is while the nature ally list may not be as nice, it "can" be more appropriate a in certain circumstances, you spontaneously do these, and the feats that buff summons I mentioned earlier require it...if you do 2 sorcerer or wizard and 1 Druid, you will essentially only be 1 cl off for your summon monster stuff ...
Yes you can do this with the Druid and get spontaneous summons but what you then lack is effective standard action summoning. The archetype gives you standard action summons but only for snakes which is a very small list to draw upon. You don't get any standard action summons from your Wizard levels unless you then pick up Acadamae Graduate which gives you a chance to end up fatigued every time you use it.
The Summon buff feats are really not very good, mostly allowing summons to get through one type of DR and in any event you are already pretty feat starved as you want to work towards Spell Perfection and ideally you want Preferred Spell for your main Summon.
All in all I think you will get better results with Cleric/Wizard or Cleric/Empyreal Sorcerer.
