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The first few times you turn away players because they aren't following reasonable protocol to help their volunteers organize a game day appropriately, one of two things will happen:
They will stop showing up or they will start RSVP'ing.
If they really love PFS and they want to play, they will RSVP. It really is a small thing to expect, and I feel it is the responsibility of the players.
New folk who just show up and see something happening and want to join in are of course an exception. Allowances can be made to accommodate those people.
But you won't get compliance from your regular player base, until they start seeing consequences for their lack of respect for the volunteers who make their fun happen.
And what about people like me who don't have a normal schedule and most days I will know if I can make it the DAY of the event...sometimes HOURS before the event. So PFS should be for only people who 9-5 jobs then? People who have odd work schedules or heaven forbid are juggling school and part time jobs need not apply then? Your assuming that every area is like YOURS. Well new's flash, it is not. Stop assuming what worked in YOUR area will work around here. The one store around here that required RSVP is on it's way out. The ones that dealt with walking as best as they could are sporting 3-5 tables a week. Is the RSVP the ONLY issue? No. But seriously, some areas just would not work under your system.
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And what about people like me who don't have a normal schedule and most days I will know if I can make it the DAY of the event...sometimes HOURS before the event. So PFS should be for only people who 9-5 jobs then? People who have odd work schedules or heaven forbid are juggling school and part time jobs need not apply then? Your assuming that every area is like YOURS. Well new's flash, it is not. Stop assuming what worked in YOUR area will work around here. The one store around here that required RSVP is on it's way out. The ones that dealt with walking as best as they could are sporting 3-5 tables a week. Is the RSVP the ONLY issue? No. But seriously, some areas just would not work under your system.The first few times you turn away players because they aren't following reasonable protocol to help their volunteers organize a game day appropriately, one of two things will happen:
They will stop showing up or they will start RSVP'ing.
If they really love PFS and they want to play, they will RSVP. It really is a small thing to expect, and I feel it is the responsibility of the players.
New folk who just show up and see something happening and want to join in are of course an exception. Allowances can be made to accommodate those people.
But you won't get compliance from your regular player base, until they start seeing consequences for their lack of respect for the volunteers who make their fun happen.
We have one store in our area that caters to walk-ups Every Sunday. that store runs between 3 and 6 tables per Sunday. Typically the walk-up tables will be level 1-5 tables, but it isn't unheard of for that store to be able to accommodate other tiers for walk-ups.
If you were in my area, and really wanted to be able to regularly attend the game day I coordinated, but couldn't guarantee you'd be there until the last moment (because of life issues, like family, an everchanging work schedule, etc.) then I would work with you to make special accommodations with you.
I would not exclude you simply because your scheduling circumstances are difficult for you or for me.
I would volunteer to do my best to accommodate you.
But frankly, catering to an entire system of nothing but walk-ups doesn't work long term, unless all the players in the area have such a mutable schedule as you do. I suppose if it was a town where the primary businesses were a hospital and retail, and almost nothing else, then the coordinator would have to accommodate for that.
But our system accommodates all different schedules, and it isn't just the 9-5 M-F jobs that can work with it. We have 2-5 tables every Saturday at Tower Games, 3-6 tables ever Sunday at The Source, 1-3 tables every First and Third Sunday at Fantasy Flight Games Event Center for primarily high level play, 2-4 tables 2 Thursday Evenings a Month at Fantasy Flight Games Event Center, 1-3 tables every other Saturday evening at Your Mom's Basement, 2-4 tables Alternate Thursday Evenings at Legion Games, I think only 1 Sunday a month on an alternate Sunday from FFG will be a couple tables at Legion Games, Village Games has a double header from 1 to 3 tables per slot every Second Saturday, and I'm probably missing at least one.
The point being, we accommodate those who can't do weekends, who have to do after hours, and such.
But there will simply be some schedules that can't be accommodated, because there are very few graveyard shift folk who play PFS in our area. If we had a store that was open weekday morning hours for such a crowd, and had such a crowd, we'd try to set up a game day for them.
But, and I don't mean to be rude to you specifically, I don't see how it is fair to the volunteer coordinators to specifically accommodate your lack of being able to commit until the last second.
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This doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I do have a few comments (forgive me if these were made already, but man, this thread is big).
1. As a GM, I will now have to know whether or not each character is out-of-tier, and fill in the chronicle accordingly. Not a big deal, but something.
2. Are the chronicles for the older scenarios going to be updated, or will a formula be given to calculate the out-of-tier gold for oneself? If the latter, what happens when an error is found after the fact?
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I am concerned that the new rules may irrevocably hurt the players who are willing to play down. I am concerned that the new rules may cause a change in the player base's attitude, causing people to be even MORE resistant to playing out of tier, and thus making it harder to muster tables.
Well, you would be even more concerned with version 1.0 of the WBL rules.
At least with this version, it's possible to make up *some* ground by playing up.
You bring up a good point: Discouraging playing up also discourages playing down. It encourages playing in-tier, which will definitely make it harder to form tables. You can't have one without the other.
And while they are increasing the benefits for playing down, they can't increase them too much or they'll have a different problem on their hands. But hopefully it will somewhat close the gap between playing up and down.
The question (for M+M+C) is after you play down, how many times playing up would it take to break even on the amount of gold you lost? If you answer that question, you answer the question of how much "Playing Out of Subtier Gold" should be.
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How, precisely, is stating that I'm comparatively unconcerned with getting more money from playing up contradictory to saying I'm concerned about players falling behind in the expected wealth-by-level by playing down? The two statements together would clearly indicate that I'm not really interested in getting ahead of WBL, but that I am concerned with falling behind in the gear the system expects me to have.
The best information we have is that the bonus for playing up has been halved, and the penalty for playing down has been halved.
This will have no effect on the ability or difficulty in "recovering" from playing down. It will reduce both the hurt and benefit from either.
If someone were in a small percentage of individuals who have had to routinely play down, expect that to change in the next few months and have the opportunity to play up routinely, and will be "caught" by the changeover (larger deficits before, smaller gains now) - Take Heart! Fortunately, when playing at higher levels, the gold difference is increased and all will be well. And even if "only" playing at tier, the % difference the earlier playing down had will be vastly reduced.
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Ryan Bolduan, our previous and first V-C in the Twin Cities region, started up our PFS lodge from scratch using RSVP requirements. Because our player base started out with those requirements, they know what they need to do to play.
RSVPs GOOOOOOOOOOOD.
Seriously, I always know that I have a place at the game, I always know (generally) which sub-tier it's going to be run for and I plan accordingly, and I know that when I get there, there's a damn good chance the other players are going to show up too and that we have the GMs needed for the seats available.
Makes for a fantastic game day.
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I am concerned that the new rules may irrevocably hurt the players who are willing to play down. I am concerned that the new rules may cause a change in the player base's attitude, causing people to be even MORE resistant to playing out of tier, and thus making it harder to muster tables.Well, you would be even more concerned with version 1.0 of the WBL rules.
At least with this version, it's possible to make up *some* ground by playing up.
What Jason said. If your concern is how the system will hurt players who are willing to play down I don't even see the grounds for the concern.
Today - Player plays down, gets lower tier gold
Monday - Player plays down, gets lower tier gold + a bonus.
Doesn't this sound like an attempt that is being made to balance when those players decide to play down?
And if you do need to make up some lost gold that the bonus didn't cover? Play up, get a bonus.
I trust that Mike, John, and whoever else was involved with making the new rule thought about it a LOT before deciding how it should be. They've been in the trenches of PFS for far longer than most of us. They also are exposed to a much wider variety and selection of players and player types than we will ever see in our respective states and the cons we play at. Trust that they want only to make PFS fun for everyone. Changes will happen, but those changes are based on a lot of experience, not some rash snap judgement.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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pressure to play up and the annoyance of playing down by making it harder to make up the last gold you suffer when you have to play down.
This is so true.
worried about making sure I got all the gold that was due to me.
It is less about the gold and more about 6 obnoxious "power gamers" gaming the system forcing a rules change that will nerf average players. That is very unfair.
everyone being on the same rough level with each other. I have yet to see a valid argument to prove otherwise.
I previously post my 12th level character who played up 18 times and is only 9 % above expected WBL based on always playing a module "in tier" instead of up and down. With the new rule, I'd be willing to bet a beer that I'd have been below expected wealth.
But if you convince people it's not worth it to play out of subtier, then the WBL problem solves itself, doesn't it?
No I think it just makes players disinterested in playing.
I'm listening in, but at this point there's little for me to add beyond encouraging people to wait for the actual Guide 5.0 to come out.
Or you could spill the details of the new rule and if it is reasonable, maybe calm this whole thread down?
Play Up Paul just doesn't like the fact that now he won't be able to make as much money as he used to
I kinda wish you wouldn't keep saying the only people unhappy about this is the Play Up Paul's. I don't see the the Play Up Paul panicing, I see the Alex and Gene's panicking.
Build >>>> cash ... A well build character with 75K of items will crush a sloppy build with 150K of items.
So true considering my 12th character had roughly 35 to 50k gp spent on "make me effective" and twice as much spent on "cool thing that is for RP not mechanics"
awesome build WITH 150k in items will cakewalk
Maybe 5 to 10% better than an awesome build with 50k gp. It isn't like the other 100k makes your character much more likely to survive. It gives you a +1 here and a +2 there, but in the whole scheme of things very little difference.
Today - Player plays down, gets lower tier gold
Monday - Player plays down, gets lower tier gold + a bonus.thought about it a LOT before deciding how it should be
Sigh, but we have no idea whether or not X = Y:
X = Old Play Up gold - New Out of Tier Play Up GoldY = New Out of Tier Play Down Gold - Old Play Down Gold
If Y isn't >= X then it will diminish Wealth of anyone playing up and down about an equal number of times.
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But frankly, catering to an entire system of nothing but walk-ups doesn't work long term, unless all the players in the area have such a mutable schedule as you do. I suppose if it was a town where the primary businesses were a hospital and retail, and almost nothing else, then the coordinator would have to accommodate for that.
Or your PLAYER base is in said industries maybe? What the general populace is doesn't matter as much as what your PLAYER base is. If the person who started is in hospitality and they are bringing they co-workers and friend from said field into it, then there is a pretty good chance that your entire player base would likely disappear if you were to enforce a RSVP or don't play attitude. Also if your near a university is another reason. Your in a residential area with families (you may not know if you can make it or not until you or your kid finish your/their homework for many school kids and parents of school kids). Every player base is different and you need to account for that.
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Hay, Cold Napalm, just come play in my home town (St. Louis). Mostly we have never had pre-sign-up sheets. A lot of the games used to be run cold, (or with the Judge very unsure if he would have players or levels), and though that is changing a little, we still have that to at least some extent. ALMOST everyone gets a seat at a game they can play. Really. 99% easy. That is even those of us hard-to-seat players like me who have played all but a handful of the games (<5 scenarios now) normally can find a...
Well most of the game days around here is like that. And the two biggest have that philosophy in mind. Show up and we WILL try our best to get you a seat. Then again, I tend to be pretty welcomed at game days as I am always willing to set up an extra table to have play happen at the drop of a hat :) .
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So...I just did the math on my most egregious play up character who is now at level 12. So I believe the estimate for that was ~110-120k with some 50 pp right (which if used for max free buy is worth about 19k...but that is another 15k in value right there for other usages)? So I have amassed a total wealth of 137,793 gold...before day jobs. So I have somewhere around ~18-28k more then I should. This is over playing up 11 session and 2 modules done at min (one played, one ran) levels and NO PLAY DOWN.
This also does not account into me having to use more expendables when playing up. If we assume an extra 2k usage in expendables for playing up, that is 22k for the scenarios right there (although this isn't true as quite a few of those play ups were with a REALLY high power group that kinda ended up cakewalking playing up...thistledown knows...For Taldor :P ). Take into account modules done at min levels taking up extra expendables in the ~3k range (and that is being generous...how much money did you spend in ruby phoenix rob?!?) and we have 28k. Or...about what I should have.
So that means with 11 play up and nothing played down, I have about as much gear as I generally am suppose to have...assuming I am not in an overpowering group. So if you reduce play up gold, that means I would have ended up behind in gear for playing up. That means I don't play up...expect with the power gamers...who steam rolls things anyways...and then it isn't an issue with the WBL system ANYWAYS at that point.
So yeah...the changes WILL hurt the average player.
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It's Travis. He moved out there a while back.LOL at Cold Napalm and Nosig. You know you have gamed together before, right? At my shop, several times?Really? I thought nosig was talking about St. Louis.
Ah...cool...well I'll definitely have to take him up on is offer if I am ever out that way...which is somewhat unlikely as I have trouble getting even weekends off :P .
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LOL at Cold Napalm and Nosig. You know you have gamed together before, right? At my shop, several times?Really? I thought nosig was talking about St. Louis.hay, Napalm where you from?
I do most of my gaming in St. Louis for the last few years, and mostly out of Game Nite there - or in CONs within a day or twos drive.I have gamed in a lot of other states before, my job moves me around a lot - though not in the last two years.
Do you know thistledown? Where's he from?
We are in the San Francisco bay area. We have a pretty big gaming community going on here :) . Most stores seem to be like yours and are quite willing to make sure everyone can play. Which I really like.
I wonder how the new play down rules will affect GM credit - I suspect that it will give GM credit characters a bit more wealth.
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But frankly, catering to an entire system of nothing but walk-ups doesn't work long term, unless all the players in the area have such a mutable schedule as you do. I suppose if it was a town where the primary businesses were a hospital and retail, and almost nothing else, then the coordinator would have to accommodate for that.Or your PLAYER base is in said industries maybe? What the general populace is doesn't matter as much as what your PLAYER base is. If the person who started is in hospitality and they are bringing they co-workers and friend from said field into it, then there is a pretty good chance that your entire player base would likely disappear if you were to enforce a RSVP or don't play attitude. Also if your near a university is another reason. Your in a residential area with families (you may not know if you can make it or not until you or your kid finish your/their homework for many school kids and parents of school kids). Every player base is different and you need to account for that.
You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.
We have plenty of family (in some cases single fathers and mothers) folks in our area, that find the wherewithal to RSVP. You just have to make accommodations for your child to have a baby sitter, or for the other parent to be there. We have one family who the mother and father trade off game days so that one stays home with their children.
We also have one of the largest universities in the USA in the University of Minnesota, and we have no problems accommodating university folk.
The point is, at some point the players have to meet the coordinator half-way. You have to make accommodations for yourself if you want to play. We have some seasonal workers here, who just know they aren't going to have time to play in the Summer. That's just a function of their jobs, and no matter how accommodating I tried to be on day, time, or lack of RSVP, they aren't going to be able to make it.
There are tons of reasons why an individual might not be able to make a particular game day, or know if they can make it till the last second. Family, constantly changing job schedule, one vehicle for two working spouses, etc.
I've given folks rides to and from game days before (and so have others.) I've bent over backwards to help folks be able to attend game days. So it is very much so, not appreciated, that you try to paint a picture that I, and the other coordinators in the Twin Cities, are not accommodating to people's needs.
But at some point, someone has to take responsibility for their self, and meet the coordinator half-way.
It might mean that you can't attend game days as often.
But I certainly do not think it unreasonable to expect people to RSVP for a game day to ensure they have a seat. If they walk-in, and the game day did not fill up through RSVP's, then they certainly can have a seat if they have a character in Tier (or if they want to play a pregen).
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You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.
Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
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So far, I like the idea of the out if tier bonus. I suspect we haveto see what the percentage is though. I do not think it will be much help to those playing down if it is only an extra 100 or so gold.
I really wanted to post because I strongly detest one or two players dictating to the majority that they have to play down or up. If the group is between tiers, then let majority rule. At that point, either play with the majority or walk away. Find another table if you can, if you cannot find one, tough luck, try organizing your own table. What are you worried about? It is a game character, you do not have to fear for your real life safety or finances. You have the power to walk if you really feel you cannot roll with it. At major conventions, enough players will show that you should be able to find similar leveled players. Smaller conventions will be harder. Still, either sit down and play or walk. I really do not care if you are afraid for your low level charcter's life or the total wealth of your higher level character dropping below the expectation. If you shelledour a bunch of real life money to attend, I still do not care. You are no more special than the next player who showed up.
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You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
So you absolutely dont belive in absolutes?
And where did he say the other parent and the kid cant come too? More than one person can RSVP at a time.
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You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
They choose not to bring the child. I don't choose that. They choose how to RSVP for the game day.
If they wanted to bring the whole family, I'd welcome the child. If they wanted to get a baby sitter for the child, I'd welcome both parents.
You sir have put words in my mouth, that I did not speak.
I don't restrict who can show up. I don't restrict how other people conduct their own private business.
All I ask is that people take whatever necessary steps them need to, to reasonably inform their coordinator ahead of time, that they can and will be showing up, in whatever capacity they can (one, both, or both with child).
It is NOT unreasonable to expect an RSVP to ensure you have a spot at the table.
I'm sorry if this affects you personally. And if you were in my region I'd bend over backwards to try to accommodate your special situation. But I'd need you to work with me as well. I can't be the only one trying to make it happen. There has to be a reasonable compromise made.
And if, as a person, you are unwilling to compromise, then that is your own choice. I'm not restricting you from showing up. I'm not telling you that you cannot come to my game day. I'm asking you to do me a courtesy so that my job as a coordinator is easier, and that I can ensure a more entertaining time for everyone who shows up (prepared GM's, enough space for everyone who took the time to coordinate their lives so they could have the wherewithal to show up and commit to showing up early.)
But don't sit there and say that I don't let everyone play. Our venues don't have 5 or 10 or 20 tables that we can just pick up if a whole table shows up unannounced.
Most of our venues have at most 4 tables we can use (The Source and Legion Games are typically the exceptions, but The Source only has 6 and usually fills those up 4 of them with RSVPs). As people RSVP, I can go out and get GM's for those tables.
But it makes no sense to have 4 tables all ready to go, with 4 GM's prepped, if only 1 table shows up to play. Then what do I do with 3 GM's who don't have a table to play at now?
It behooves the entire PFS community to help your coordinators make sure they can have all the resources prepared and ready to go for the game day, well in advance of the game day actually happening.
And if anyone wants to be obstinate and not follow the protocol, without at least discussing with me why they think they can't, then they may not have a seat to play at, because we didn't know they were coming.
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You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
So, Cold Napalm, I have to ask. You've made it clear that you think the volunteer organizers need to accommodate players with difficult schedules like yours. Do you think these players should accommodate the volunteer organizers? If so, what do you think people with difficult schedules should do to accommodate them?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
So you absolutely dont belive in absolutes?
And where did he say the other parent and the kid cant come too? More than one person can RSVP at a time.
Only an Aspis Consortum member deals in Absolutes.
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Only an Aspis Consortum member deals in Absolutes.
You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
So you absolutely dont belive in absolutes?
And where did he say the other parent and the kid cant come too? More than one person can RSVP at a time.
Emphasis mine.
Absolutely only Apsis Consortium members deal in absolutes? Then obviously Cold Napalm is an undercover Apsis agent! GET HIM!
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So, Cold Napalm, I have to ask. You've made it clear that you think the volunteer organizers need to accommodate players with difficult schedules like yours. Do you think these players should accommodate the volunteer organizers? If so, what do you think people with difficult schedules should do to accommodate them?
You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
The coordinators don't HAVE to do anything. The ones around here generally however do everything they can to get everyone seats...and I think they are AWESOME for doing that. It also means if they need a GM, I can run a table for them at any given time (pretty good at running cold). You have to realize that pretty much all my GM credits were from me running an extra table so others can play. I ran several at kubla in fact. I think I have a grand total of like 4 games where I actually had time to prep before game day. The rest were running to make tables for people. I honestly have fun either way so I'm glad to do it. But that isn't the point. The point is, that we have coordinators that I think are awesome to get everyone who shows up, RSVP or not a table to play. And the stores that have those coordinators around here are growing. The one that has a strict RSVP rule is kinda not. For THIS area, the everyone's welcome and we can all play system seems to work better. In Andrew's area, this is not the case. In nosing's case, it's like here and they seem to be doing well with the show up and play. So, are we doing it wrong here? Is nosig? Is Andrew? The answer is NONE of us are doing it wrong. What we do is working for us. We are having fun. So none of us are doing it wrong.
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Only an Aspis Consortum member deals in Absolutes.
You are correct, coordinators need to account for what their Player base requires. But I disagree that there is a single player base that requires only walk-ups to work.Then you and I will NEVER see eye to eye on this issue because I don't believe in absolutes.
You say you have it so one parent stays home with the kid while the other shows up because of the RSVP...so what if you allowed them to walk up and they get a seat so EVERYONE in the family, mom, dad and kid can show up? Your telling me that having a system where ONE of them can show up is good enough for EVERY area? I don't think so. It maybe fine for YOUR area...it may mean the death of mine.
So you absolutely dont belive in absolutes?
And where did he say the other parent and the kid cant come too? More than one person can RSVP at a time.
Emphasis mine.
Absolutely only Apsis Consortium members deal in absolutes? Then obviously Cold Napalm is an undercover Apsis agent! GET HIM!
Took ya long enough...*dimension door* :P .
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Stuff
The Bay Area has a lot of different venues, and I don't think your view point accurately reflects everything that is going on.
While you really enjoy the play no matter what ethos, I don't. I can only play each scenario once (with some minor exceptions) and I want that experience to be awesome.
When I'm GMing, I could run a scenario cold and get the statblocks right. I couldn't bring it life though, I wouldn't know enough background and I wouldn't have prepped enough to be able to bring the setting out and create more than a 4 hour tactical skirmish.
One of the great things about the Bay Area is the abundance of players and locations. You can prefer the locations that don't keep their warhorns updated and fit in somehow and I can prefer the ones that have their warhorns up in advance and that's okay.
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This is the only post I am making on this topic and while it is OFF TOPIC from the main thread, felt it needed to be said because of a side debate going on.
I am one of the Event Coordinators in the Twin Cities with Andrew. I am also coordinate an unusually unique venue in the area as well. I "have" to allow for walk ups at my venue. The Store both wants it and the traffic IN the store needs it.
Now with that being said I DO use the RSVP system that we have in place here and I have actually had to turn people away which was unfortunate. I have been able to have a person or two be able to run cold but that type of GM or style of GMing and being able to pull it off where the table both has fun and gets done in time too is a rare quality!!
There are not many GM's that have the confidence to be able run cold and among those there are a handful that can run cold and pull it off where the table has a blast doing it. I try and encourage those that can and do it well to do so WHEN it is absolutely needed. But I try not to abuse it either. As it is not truly fair for the GM to do so.
If I have to many walk-ins I will bend over backwards to get them in to a table... but if I have ten people show up all of a sudden as a walk in. I speak to them in a friendly manner explaining that I will be unable to accommodate them today and tell them about our RSVP system/web site and invite them to watch if they are able to and see how we play. I also hope to see them the following week. (I usually try and account for 4 walk-ups). I will not turn away a person that RSVP'd using our system because it would not be fair for them to do so. I will ask if I have a volunteer to give their seat up sometimes. But I do not put anyone in a spot where they "feel" obligated to give up a seat and or even GM for the sudden table that showed up.
Very RARELY does someone get turned away at my event.. or for that matter at any even IN the Twin Cities area. We have most of the game stores accounted for with events doing PFS any most if not all of them during any given week. It is a growing community through these events at each store. As Andrew has mentioned most of us coordinators go out of our way to do what we can to make sure people play at them if they show up. Personally I have driven 60 miles one way (120 round trip) on a weekly basis for the past year to do just that. AND that is twice a day. To pick them up AND bring them back to their place... just so they could play too.
So yea we all are different in each area of this great organization PFS and venues. Each does things their own way on how they coordinate. Ours is not unique by any means nor is it a system that is unfair towards any player/GM here. This system is not plug and play though. It took a lot of hard work to get it where we have it. No one person grew this community. All the coordinators advertised the Web Site to get it where it is. The Players in turn took the torch up and did so as well. Some even went so far to make cards. Myself as a Coordinator even bumped heads with the Venture officers in my area because I felt that the RSVP system would not work for my event... but it does and I embrace it now. (It was my stubbornness that caused any grief between any VO in my area and myself though).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Ok, I just parsed the PDFs and made a DB of all gold amounts for all scenarios, modules, and sanctioned adventure paths. I'm trying to think of a non-manual way of writing a report to show the "least" gp possible per level, the average gp per level, the median gp per level, and the maximum gp per level.
I'll get out a report of each of those values from pre-5.0 calculations and post 5.0 calculations.
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StuffThe Bay Area has a lot of different venues, and I don't think your view point accurately reflects everything that is going on.
While you really enjoy the play no matter what ethos, I don't. I can only play each scenario once (with some minor exceptions) and I want that experience to be awesome.
When I'm GMing, I could run a scenario cold and get the statblocks right. I couldn't bring it life though, I wouldn't know enough background and I wouldn't have prepped enough to be able to bring the setting out and create more than a 4 hour tactical skirmish.
One of the great things about the Bay Area is the abundance of players and locations. You can prefer the locations that don't keep their warhorns updated and fit in somehow and I can prefer the ones that have their warhorns up in advance and that's okay.
** spoiler omitted **
Well...that isn't to say you can't have BOTH. A certain store in castro valley (not sure if we can say store name here or not) for example has a very good and organized warhorn page BUT they are also extremely flexible in the mustering phase as well. So it isn't that you can't be organized at all...it's the ability to adapt to changes that I like (I remember the BART strike caused all sorts of issues at one of the game days...and it looks like it's coming back monday :( ).
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You can name them, I presume you're talking about Ronin games. I don't know of any other venues for PFS in Castro Valley.
They are a little far for me to get to regularly but I enjoyed the one time I made it. I also hear that they frequently sit 7 person tables which is a big turn off for me.
Yeah Ronin. Yeah they do sit 7 to a table sometimes...but that seems to be the case for many of the stores around here. I think about half my tables were 7 people tables.
Gamescape I had a lot of fun at as well and they are the complete opposite of what Andrew suggests. I am not familiar with the details of why that is around that area...but as long as people are having fun, they are doing it right as far as I am concerned :) . And that is pretty much my point. Each area that has a big PFS presence did it through what worked for them. Now if an area was straggling and asking for advice, I can see Andrew's advice being something to try even. To say it is the BEST way for EVERY area however is what I do not agree with.
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They choose not to bring the child. I don't choose that. They choose how to RSVP for the game day.If they wanted to bring the whole family, I'd welcome the child. If they wanted to get a baby sitter for the child, I'd welcome both parents.
You sir have put words in my mouth, that I did not speak.
I don't restrict who can show up. I don't restrict how other people conduct their own private business.
But my point was that did you ever consider that the reason that only one parent shows up is because of your RSVP system? If one parent has to stay home JUST in case the kid did not finish their homework, you can't have both parents and the kid show up now can you. If you made it a policy to work in walk ins and even make it welcoming, then if the kid finishes his/her homework, they can all get in the car, drive over and play. I am not saying you should do this BTW, but it is all various aspects that each coordinator has to factor in before they make a choice about their game day.
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Maybe I'm just being silly, but isn't the obvious approach a mix. Encourage people to RSVP, guarantee them a seat if they do. Try to accommodate walk-ins, but don't make guarantees.
And really isn't that how they all work, with some having more emphasis on one side than the other.
Well MOST work that way. There is one store around here who will turn you away with an RSVP, even if there is a seat after the first few times you show up. And there are ones who basically does not have an RSVP system at all as their warhorn page is updated the day of the event...if that...
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I want to see the result ... 10-30K lifetime is a huge deal
I mapped out three paths (min, max, maxup), the average, and the median. The method and the raw numbers are described below in a spoilers.
Sadly, the described change will do nothing to stop characters from having as much as 158,877 gp when they level to 12th. It will however drastically reduce the average player's benefit from the occasional play up event. So it hurts only the normal players and only prevents the extreme gold optimized player from getting the extra 22729 he would net by the time he is 12th level from all his play up sessions.
I can only assume that MM&J didn't run these numbers. I must assume they went with a gut feeling. The problem with the Season 5 fix (as has been described) is that it doesn't prevent a player from getting within 12 % of the unwanted wealth legally.
1------1237----1505.8----1518-----1935-----5819
2------2487----5216.8----5229-----5646-----11524
3------3806----9180.3----9076-----10446----22319
4------5173----13720.5---13244----17202----32501
5------6570----19918.6---18938----25914----49684
6------9848----28459.8---27403----37701----66387
7------13599---32142.1---37664----52563----90562
8------18507---36828.6---50695----70329----114616
9------26016---42376.4---67154----93903----138498
10-----34431---49888.9---90299----118078---162673
11-----44559---57684.7---113625---150877---173606
- Each path is a legal progression from 1 to 12.
- Min - Chose the lowest possible gold award
- Max - Chose the maximum gold award in subtier in which they fall
- Up - Chose to play up for highest possible gold award.
- Rules on Version 4.3
- 1st level PC can only play Tier 1 or Tier 1-5 (p 33)
- May not play in subtier more than 1 step away from level (p 33)
- Never play the same scenario/module twice (p 33)
- Free RPG Day are 1 xp modules (p 31)
- All other AP and Modules are 3 xp (p 30)
- Academy of Secrets
- Broken Chains
- Carrion Hill
- City of Golden Death
- Crypt of the Everflame
- Cult of the Ebon Destroyers
- Curse of the Riven Sky
- Dawn of the Scarlet Sun
- Doom Comes to Dustpawn Fangwood Keep
- Feast of Ravenmoor
- From Shore to Sea
- The Godsmouth Heresy
- The Harrowing
- Masks of the Living God
- Master of the Fallen Fortress
- The Midnight Mirror
- The Moonscar
- Murder's Mark
- No Response from Deepmar
- Realm of the Fellnight Queen
- Ruby Phoenix Tournament
- Tomb of the Iron Medusa
- We Be Goblins!
- We Be Goblins Too!
- Witchwar Legacy
- Rise of the Runelords
- Skull & Shackles
- Shattered Star
- Reign of Winter
- #1: Silent Tide
- #2: The Hydra's Fang Incident
- #3: Murder on the Silken Caravan
- #4: The Frozen Fingers of Midnight
- #5: Mists of Mwangi
- #6: Black Waters
- #7: Among the Living
- #8: Slave Pits of Absalom
- #13: The Prince of Augustana
- #14: The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch
- #16: To Scale the Dragon
- #17: Perils of the Pirate Pact
- #20: King Xeros of Old Azlant
- #22: Fingerprints of the Fiend
- #23: Tide of Morning
- #24: Decline of Glory
- #26: Lost at Bitter End
- #27: Our Lady of Silver
- #28: Lyrics of Extinction
- #29: The Devil We Know-Part I: Shipyard Rats
- #30: The Devil We Know-Part II: Cassomir's Locker
- #31: Sniper in the Deep
- #32: Drow of the Darklands Pyramid
- #33: Assault on the Kingdom of the Impossible
- #34: Encounter at the Drowning Stones
- #35: Voice in the Void
- #36: Echoes of the Everwar-Part I: The Prisoner of Skull Hill
- #37: The Beggar's Pearl
- #38: No Plunder, No Pay
- #39: The Citadel of Flame
- #40: Hall of Drunken Heroes
- #41: The Devil We Know-Part III: Crypt of Fools
- #42: Echoes of the Everwar-Part II: The Watcher of Ages
- #43: The Pallid Plague
- #44: Echoes of the Everwar-Part III: Terror at Whistledown
- #45: Delirium's Tangle
- #46: Eyes of the Ten-Part I: Requiem for the Red Raven
- #47: The Darkest Vengeance
- #48: The Devil We Know-Part IV: Rules of the Swift
- #49: Among the Dead
- #50: Fortune's Blight
- #51: The City of Strangers-Part I: The Shadow Gambit
- #52: The City of Strangers-Part II: The Twofold Demise
- #53: Echoes of the Everwar-Part IV: The Faithless Dead
- #54: Eyes of the Ten-Part II: The Maze of the Open Road
- #55: The Infernal Vault
- #56: The Jester's Fraud
- #2-01: Before the Dawn-Part I: The Bloodcove Disguise
- #2-02: Before the Dawn-Part II: Rescue at Azlant Ridge
- #2-03: The Rebel's Ransom
- #2-04: Shadows Fall on Absalom
- #2-05: Eyes of the Ten-Part III: Red Revolution
- #2-06: The Heresy of Man-Part I: The First Heresy
- #2-07: The Heresy of Man-Part II: Where Dark Things Sleep
- #2-08: The Sarkorian Prophecy
- #2-09: The Heresy of Man-Part III: Beneath Forgotten Sands
- #2-10: Fury of the Fiend
- #2-11: The Penumbral Accords
- #2-12: Below the Silver Tarn
- #2-13: Murder on the Throaty Mermaid
- #2-14: The Chasm of Screams
- #2-15: Shades of Ice-Part I: Written in Blood
- #2-16: The Flesh Collector
- #2-17: Shades of Ice-Part II: Exiles of Winter
- #2-18: The Forbidden Furnace of Forgotten Koor
- #2-19: Shades of Ice-Part III: Keep of the Huscarl King
- #2-20: Wrath of the Accursed
- #2-21: The Dalsine Affair
- #2-22: Eyes of the Ten-Part IV: Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained
- #2-23: Shadow's Last Stand-Part I: At Shadow's Door
- #2-24: Shadow's Last Stand-Part II: Web of Corruption
- #2-25: You Only Die Twice
- #2-26: The Mantis's Prey
- #3-01: The Frostfur Captives
- #3-02: Sewer Dragons of Absalom
- #3-03: The Ghenett Manor Gauntlet
- #3-04: The Kortos Envoy
- #3-05: Tide of Twilight
- #3-06: Song of the Sea Witch
- #3-07: Echoes of the Overwatched
- #3-08: Among the Gods
- #3-09: The Quest for Perfection-Part I: The Edge of Heaven
- #3-10: The Immortal Conundrum
- #3-11: The Quest for Perfection-Part II: On Hostile Waters
- #3-12: Wonders in the Weave-Part I: The Dog Pharaoh's Tomb
- #3-13: The Quest for Perfection-Part III: Defenders of Nesting Swallow
- #3-14: Wonders in the Weave-Part II: Snakes in the Fold
- #3-15: The Haunting of Hinojai
- #3-16: The Midnight Mauler
- #3-17: Red Harvest
- #3-18: The God's Market Gamble
- #3-19: The Icebound Outpost
- #3-20: The Rats of Round Mountain - Part I: The Sundered Path
- #3-21: The Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment
- #3-22: The Rats of Round Mountain - Part II: Pagoda of the Rat
- #3-23: The Goblinblood Dead
- #3-24: The Golden Serpent
- #3-25: Storming the Diamond Gate
- #3-26: Portal of the Sacred Rune
- #4-01: Rise of the Goblin Guild
- #4-02: In Wrath's Shadow
- #4-03: The Golemworks Incident
- #4-04: King of the Storval Stairs
- #4-05: The Sanos Abduction
- #4-06: The Green Market
- #4-07: Severing Ties
- #4-08: The Cultist's Kiss
- #4-09: The Blakros Matrimony
- #4-10: Feast of Sigils
- #4-11: The Disappeared
- #4-12: The Refuge of Time
- #4-13: Fortress of the Nail
- #4-14: My Enemy's Enemy
- #4-15: The Cyphermage Dilemma
- #4-16: The Fabric of Reality
- #4-17: Tower of the Ironwood Watch
- #4-18: The Veteran's Vault
- #4-19: The Night March of Kalkamedes
- #4-20: Words of the Ancients
- #4-21: Way of the Kirin
- #4-22: Halls of Dwarven Lore
- #4-23: Rivalry's End
- #4-24: The Price of Friendship
- #4-25: The Secrets Stones Keep
- #4-26: The Waking Rune
- #Blood Under Absalom
- #Year of the Shadow Lodge
If anyone would like the spreadsheet or to double check my math, please send me a private message. This is a complete documentation of all existing scenarios, modules, and AP for gold. It may not be best to post it wide spread.