|
If the Paladin's 10th level, then there's probably 3 more vrocks, probably all within range to full-attack the obvious threat. ;)"A vrock can do what? Omigod, we're all going to die..."If the level 10 Pally beats it on Init... It's dead... ~150+ Damage to the last one Luthril faced... it was not pretty, but then again Smiting Demons is literally his job, and he had been pissed all module by the Chaotic Neutral enemies, so the Vrock had it coming...
That's why he doesn't solo scenarios... party members to the rescue... I got 5 friends and there are only 3 left, and I will survive to LoH myself and rinse and repeat
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Well, the importance of AC (and/or miss chances) depends on how many times you can afford to say "yep, that hits". ;) So if you're only spending part of your time in melee, it's less of a priority. My guy has hardly any offensive spellcasting, so ending a fight generally means throwing up a buff or two and heading into the fray with sword in hand. Thus, I pretty much always need to be hard to hit (though I have fairly decent HP as well). If melee is only a part-time gig, then you can get in there sometimes, but then still contribute if you need to tag-team to the back.
|
Yeah, that's pretty much what I do. I'm considering picking up a buckler, because so far I just run around with my 1 handed hammer and other hand free for casting. I double hand the hammer when I'm attacking. The dusty rose prism ioun stone is on my shopping list, but other than that. I'm brute forcing my armor enhancement or natural armor. I don't use deflection, because that's what shield of faith provides.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Yeah, that's pretty much what I do. I'm considering picking up a buckler, because so far I just run around with my 1 handed hammer and other hand free for casting. I double hand the hammer when I'm attacking. The dusty rose prism ioun stone is on my shopping list, but other than that. I'm brute forcing my armor enhancement or natural armor. I don't use deflection, because that's what shield of faith provides.
I use a little deflection, because SoF scales with level and I don't cast it every fight. I bought a +1 ring of protection at 6th level when the SoF bonus went to +3, so I could keep on remembering the +2 net increase that it had granted all along. ;)
My cleric's AC breaks down as follows:
10 base
2 DEX
9 armor (+3 mithral breastplate)
4 shield (+3 buckler)
1 deflection (ring of prot +1)
2 natural (Armor of the Pit)
1 enhancement to natural (amulet +1)
1 luck (jingasa of the fortunate soldier)
----------------
30 total
Since magic item prices scale exponentially, the key to high AC is to get AC-boosting items in as many different slots as possible. I'm using armor, shield, ring, amulet and head slots for AC, and have a feat and middling DEX on top of that. Of course, you also have to be okay with spending a huge percentage of your wealth on AC - my cleric is still wielding a +1 longsword and wearing a +1 cloak of resistance (though being a cleric and having easy access to heroism helps with both of those issues).
I'm starting to wonder if when people say "AC becomes irrelevant" maybe they really mean "the amount of AC that I'm willing to invest in with my characters becomes irrelevant".
|
|
and Dorothy - save up your cash and start upgrading those generic magic items... Belt of physical perfection may have been a bad buy, but it is +6 to stats for only 16000, unfortunately upgrading it isn't in a Pathfinder's budget the difference would be 48,000 to go to +4, ouch... but the +1 AC items need to be upgraded, it is expensive, but so is dying. Do one at a time, and stop when your AC gets into a more comfortable area.
Actually, I probably over-emphasized the AC: base is 26, buffed is 32, and I can get it to 36 with Combat Expertise and two weapon defense. Unless I'm running with a Crane-style Qinggong monk, I usually have the highest AC in the party by 4-6 points.
But when I say that with no buffs, I have 70 hit points and do 1d6+7* (4 per round), jaws drop in shock. Everyone tells my there's no way this character will survive or be of any use whatsoever in levels 9-12. But this particular front-line TWF has been pretty effective up to now, and she's one of the very few 9th level characters in our local group who has never died. Somewhere around level 10 or 11, she'll transform from an unhittable Cuisinart to useless. Without significant metagaming knowledge, there's not really any way to see that coming.
*Buffed and flanking, she does 1d6+12 with 4d6 sneak attack, and crits on a 15 or better.
|
The way I always tell people to look at their characters as they advance is to view everything as an obstacle and a solution. For example Invisible creatures are an obstacle. What solution does your character have for this obstacle? Some obstacles only appear around certain level ranges of the game. Others persist. Even something as simple as, how do you deal with a melee focused opponent that is standing next to you? This is an obstacle that you need plan for. For a Barbarian the solution may be to kill them quickly while relying on a generous amount of hit points to stay alive.
So identify the common obstacles and have solutions prepared for them. And feel free to discuss any weak areas with the party before hand. Because knowing is half the battle.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Actually, I probably over-emphasized the AC: base is 26, buffed is 32, and I can get it to 36 with Combat Expertise and two weapon defense.
Using Kyle's APL+2 guideline, your 9th-level PC is looking at a CR11 monster. The "high attack" value for such a monster is +19. So unbuffed, you get hit on a 7. Ouch. But that's why you have buffs, right? :) At your buffed 32, they now need a 13 to hit you. That might be where you decide to pull out all the stops and get your 36, so they need a 17.
So it looks like if you ever see just one or two monsters, you should probably buff. If that's more buffing than you'd prefer to need (or if the numbers are still not to your liking when buffed), then consider putting AC items in more slots. But if you're cool with those numbers, then I guess you're set! :)
|
|
I'm starting to wonder if when people say "AC becomes irrelevant" maybe they really mean "the amount of AC that I'm willing to invest in with my characters becomes irrelevant".
A character with almost nothing spent (around 6700gp)on AC and a two-hander can have a 23 AC easily from level 4 or so. The power attacking CR13 Glabrezu needs a 7 to hit versus a 23 AC. 35% miss chance is far from worthless AC. Adding on blur (which provides an actual +13 miss chance) will provide less protection than a +1 shield, not even including the Glabrezu's true seeing. What blur does protect against is combat maneuvers and touch attacks.
1 Dex
10 Plate mail+1
1 ring of protection
1 Amulet of Natural Armor
=23
AC being useless is clearly a myth, at least at the levels that PFS plays at.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Even something as simple as, how do you deal with a melee focused opponent that is standing next to you? This is an obstacle that you need plan for.
Apparently "lots of HP and/or high miss chances" is a popular solution. I'm still not convinced, however, that high AC isn't also a viable solution.
|
I'm starting to wonder if when people say "AC becomes irrelevant" maybe they really mean "the amount of AC that I'm willing to invest in with my characters becomes irrelevant".A character with almost nothing spent (around 6700gp)on AC and a two-hander can have a 23 AC easily from level 4 or so. The power attacking CR13 Glabrezu needs a 7 to hit versus a 23 AC. 35% miss chance is far from worthless AC. Adding on blur (which provides an actual +13 miss chance) will provide less protection than a +1 shield, not even including the Glabrezu's true seeing. What blur does protect against is combat maneuvers and touch attacks.
1 Dex
10 Plate mail+1
1 ring of protection
1 Amulet of Natural Armor
=23AC being useless is clearly a myth, at least at the levels that PFS plays at.
While I agree with the sentiment, the average 4th level character is supposed to have around 6,000 gp in equipment. So how is spending more than you wealth by level supposed to be 'almost nothing spent' or did you mean to say, "almost nothing else spent?"
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I'm starting to wonder if when people say "AC becomes irrelevant" maybe they really mean "the amount of AC that I'm willing to invest in with my characters becomes irrelevant".To be fair, the first person who said anything about AC in this thread was Charon's little helper who said "Armor Class [doesn't] necessarily become useless - but you can't just throw on just armor and be missed half the time. Starting level 6-8ish, armor becomes either something worthless - or you've invested a decent chunk of your cash into it."
So, armor becomes worthless unless you build around having a high armor class. That investment in armor class necessarily means you have less equipment and fewer feats for other things.
My post that you quoted refers to people who say "AC becomes irrelevant". So if that's not what Charon's little helper (or any other given person) said, then I wasn't referring to them. :)
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Here is a quick guide I worked up in 40 mins. If it is desired I can later update it to be more comprehensive, but for now it is a good staging ground. In the post that follows this one, I will place three very simple AC builds, one from each tier I discuss below, for example purposes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lormyr's Armor Class Primer 101
I frequently read on the PFS boards about how many folks struggle with the AC aspect of their characters, which leads to player frustration and a perception that AC becomes useless at some point. I am writing this guide to show you that does not need to be the case, and there is an end to your frustrations. This guide is going to be written specifically with PFS in mind, and therefore at this time will scale only through the 12th level of play, with is the maximum range for the majority of gamers who participate in this setting. Perhaps a later date will see a continuation through 19th level if there is demand. This guide will cover crucial feats, spells up to 6th level, and magic items in detail, but only touch on a few noteworthy class archetypes and prestige classes.
Disclaimer: Some things in Pathfinder are cheap and easy to scale. Armor Class is not one of these things. If you are unwilling to devote your limited resources of feats, spells, item slots, and gold towards your AC, you are extremely unlikely to reach satisfactory results. Depending upon the class and choice of combat style you wish to use, you are looking at anywhere from 1/4 to 2/3 of your resources going into your defense. Consider this as we move forward.
Bonus Types and Stacking
The following types of bonuses are commonly available in PFS play, and this is how they interact with one another. All of these bonuses stack with eachother, but do not stack with themselves unless specifically noted. This list is not exhaustive, containing only those bonuses PCs are likely to employ with ease.
Armor bonus
Deflection bonus
Dodge bonus (always stacks, even with other dodge bonuses)
Insight bonus
Luck bonus
Natural armor, enhancement (stacks with base natural armor, but not another enhancement bonus)*
Natural armor, base (stacks with an ehancement bonus to natural armor, but not another base natural armor)*
Shield bonus
Size bonus
Unnarmed bonus (stacks with everything, including other unnamed bonuses, but not those from the same source)
*In the event of confusion, an example of the difference: Minotaurs are born tough. They have a +5 (base) natural armor bonus to their AC. If a minotaur's druid buddy casts barkskin upon the minotaur, they bonuses will stack because the barkskin spell is an enhancement bonus to natural armor, not base natural armor. Likewise, if Tim the Powergamer is wearing an amulet of natural armor +1, this will not stack with barkskin because both are an enhancement bonus.
Defense Potential Tier by Class
In this section, I will be catagorizing all Pathfinder classes into one of four tiers based solely upon that class's innate potential for high AC. They will be defined as follows:
Tier 1: This class was born to have a high AC. This class requires the least amount of resource devotion, synergizes easily with available bonus types, and is sustainable to a point of almost anything needing a natural 20 to hit you through most tiers of play.
Tier 2: It is not difficult to give this class a high AC. While it requires more devotion of resources than Tier 1, tanking out a member of this class should leave you with plenty of room to maneuver on the rest of your character. It is possible, but unlikely outside of extreme devotion, to maintain an unhittable AC on this class.
Tier 3: This class can be made to have a high AC, but the devotion of resources required is considerable. Your are probably better off utilizing other methods of avoiding damage than focusing on AC, but it is possible to do if you are hell bent on it.
Tier 4: If you wish to play a high AC character, I recommend against this class. In order to give this class a high AC, you will be spending the majority of your resources towards that goal, as well as losing top potency from some of your class features. It is possible to put a high AC on this character, but it will not be capable of reaching the height of any of the previous tiers, and cannot reach unhittable levels.
Using this scale as a judge, the classes are tiered as follows:
Tier 1: Duelist [prestige class], Fighter [aldori swordlord archetype only], Magus [kensai archetype only], Monk, Oracle [nature mystery only]
Tier 2: Alchemist*, Bard [dawnflower dervish and possibily dervish dancer archetypes only], Cavalier/Samurai, Fighter, Cleric, Druid*, Gunslinger, Inquisitor, Magus, Oracle, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue/Ninja,
Tier 3: Bard, Sorcerer*, Summoner, Witch, Wizard*
Tier 4: Barbarian
*Note: if wildshape and transmutation spells are frequently used for your particular build, these classes are capable of functioning a tier higher than listed.
Class Splashing
Sometimes splashing classes can be the best thing in the world for a particular build. In general, this is not the case, but there are niche circumstances where that 1 or 2 level splash will be better than anything your primary class could possibly give you. Let's examine a few of these cases.
Duelist Prestige Class (number of levels equal to your Int modifier only)
Who wants this splash: Melee characters who wear light or no armor, and wield only a single one-handed or light piercing melee weapon.
Why it's good: You are now adding two attributes to your AC (Dex and Int), and gain bonus gain to your melee attacks against most creatures.
Fighter, Aldori Swordlord Archetype (exactly 7 levels)
Who wants this splash: Any melee build that exploits fighting defensively.
Why its good: If fighting defensively is your AC lynch pin, you will gain increased AC and reduced attack penalty.
Magus, Kensai Archetype (number of levels equal to your Int modifier only)
Who wants this splash: Melee characters who wear light or no armor, and plan to use only one type of melee weapon.
Why it's good: You are now adding two attributes to your AC (Dex and Int). The extras are ok, but probably not superior to your primary classes.
Monk (1 or 2 levels)
Who wants this splash: Any combat build who plans to fight without armor.
Why it's good: You are now adding two attributes to your AC (Dex and Wis), and possibly secured evasion with 2 levels.
Oracle, Nature Mystery only (1 level)
Who wants this splash: Any combat build with high Cha.
Why it's good: By selecting nature's whispers, you may add your Cha modifier to your AC and CMD instead of your Dex. Note however that his ability has the amazing feature of not being restricted by the max Dex bonus of any armor your wear. This is the best paladin splash in the universe. For PFS, it may also allow you to completely dump Dex, depending on the build you are running, which gives you more attribute points elsewhere.
Feat Selection
Race specific:
Armor of the Pit (tiefling only)
Cautious Fighter (halfling only)
Combat Style Specific:
Shield Focus (requires a shield)
Crane Style, Crane Wing, Crane Riposte (for builds centric to fighting defensively)
Two-Weapon Defense (requires requires two-weapon fighting)
General:
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Spells
While there are certainly more spells than this, what will be covered here are the staples that will see you through. What we are looking for here are easy access, durations of at least 1 min/level, and plentiful. To this end, spells or 1st to 3rd level are the best option. Fortunately for us, most such spells also actually fall into that range.
1st level spells:
Mage Armor (sorcerer/wizard, summoner, witch) - provides +4 armor bonus 1 hour/level
Protection From Evil (cleric/oracle, inquisitor, paladin, sorcerer/wizard, summoner) - provides situational +2 deflection bonus 1 min/level
Shield (alchemist, magus, sorcerer/wizard, summoner) - provides +4 shield bonus 1 min/level
Shield of Faith (cleric/oracle, inquisitor) - provides scaling +2 deflection bonus 1 min/level
2nd level spells:
Barkskin (alchemist, druid, ranger, summoner) - provides scaling +2 natural armor (enhancement) bonus 10 min/level
3rd level spells:
Magic Circle Against Evil (cleric/oracle, inquisitor, paladin, sorcerer/wizard, summoner) - provides situational +2 deflection bonus 10 min/level
Magic Vestment (cleric/oracle, inquistor) - gives existing armor or shield scaling +1 enhancement bonus 1 hour/level
In addition to these staples are the various polymorph spells and wildshape. These all provide base natural armor bonuses, thus stacking with barkskin and similiar, but are not generally useful to every build.
Magic Items
Up until now (with notable exception of some class splashes I like), most of this guide has been pretty simple. This section is where things get more complicated. The reason for this is a need to discuss the order in which items should be purchased, and too highlight a few hidden gems that are not widely known about.
By 12th level, most PFS legal PCs are going to have around 110,000 gold pieces. This figure can be much greater or fewer depending upon how often one has played up, played down, or died, but assuming a figure in that range is pretty standard. While that is a great sum of money, it also never seems to go quite as far as one would like. That being said, what I am about to say is the one key truth to developing your AC through magic items:
Always buy the next cheapest upgrade first
I know, having several +2 items isn't as fun as having that shiny +5 shield, but it's far more practical on your wallet. I am going to now hand walk you through exactly what to purchase, and in what order to purchase it for maximum efficieny. This chart will pretty evenly apply to all characters if you employ it by simply skipping over any items your build does not employ (for example, skip the shield entry and move on to the next purchase). At the end, increasing the AC of non-standard builds through items will be discussed. But for most characters. . .
+1 enhancement to your armor (1,000 gp)
+1 enhancement to your shield (1,000 gp)
ring of protection +1 (2,000 gp)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp)
+2 enhancement to your armor (+3,000 gp over what you've already spent)
+2 enhancement to your shield (+3,000 gp over what you've already spent)
jingasa of the fortunate soldier (5,000 gp)
dusty rose prism ioun stone + wayfinder (this item screams to live in a wayfinder - trust me and buy both; 5,000 gp for the ioun stone, 500 gp for the wayfinder)
+3 enhancement to your armor (+5,000 gp over what you've already spent)
+3 enhancement to your shield (+5,000 gp over what you've already spent)
upgrade ring of protection to +2 (+6,000 gp over what you've already spent)
upgrade amulet of natural armor to +2 (+6,000 gp over what you've already spent)
+4 enhancement to your armor (+7,000 gp over what you've already spent)
+4 enhancement to your shield (+7,000 gp over what you've already spent)
upgrade ring of protection to +3 (+10,000 gp over what you've already spent)
upgrade natural armor to +3 (+10,000 gp over what you've already spent)
Most of us will not make it this far let alone father, but you get the idea. It should go without saying that if you do not wear armor, do not use a shield, can cast your own barkskin, or can cast your own shield of faith, you should skip over any associated purchase.
For those who rely heavily upon their spells to augment their AC, a rod of lesser extend metamagic is your best friend in the world at a very affordable 3,000 gp a pop. Each of these rods will double the duration of three of the spells listed earlier per day. In the case of shield and shield of faith, combine these rods with a pearl of power (1st level) which cost 1,000 gp. One rod and two said pearls of power cost 5,000 gp, and will allow you to have your caster level x6 minutes per day of either of those spells for a single spell slot.
If you are a melee build that does not cast spells but relies upon mage armor and shield to meet your AC needs, worry not - this is easily fixed. In seeker of secrets, there is an item called a cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone. This item costs a humble 2,000 gp, and allows you to store within it a single 1st level spell. Combine as many of these stones as needed (typically 2) with wands of mage armor and shield purchased with prestige points. Hand off your wands to friendly party casters to fill your stones for you as needed, or fill them yourself with UMD. You will not need a huge UMD score for this, as you can fill your stones inbetween combat so that the stones can be used in combat without the risk of failure.
|
Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
|
Actually, I probably over-emphasized the AC: base is 26, buffed is 32, and I can get it to 36 with Combat Expertise and two weapon defense.Using Kyle's APL+2 guideline, your 9th-level PC is looking at a CR11 monster. The "high attack" value for such a monster is +19. So unbuffed, you get hit on a 7. Ouch. But that's why you have buffs, right? :) At your buffed 32, they now need a 13 to hit you. That might be where you decide to pull out all the stops and get your 36, so they need a 17.
So it looks like if you ever see just one or two monsters, you should probably buff. If that's more buffing than you'd prefer to need (or if the numbers are still not to your liking when buffed), then consider putting AC items in more slots. But if you're cool with those numbers, then I guess you're set! :)
You do know there is a critter in a 8-9 sub tier that has a +25 to hit with 5 attacks right? Such things are getting more and more common these days...which is where the AC thing is coming from. If your playing a lot of the earlier seasons...yeah, AC is not really that big of an issue to keep up. That said, in higher tiers, it's not a big bad rip you apart monster that is gonna be the death of you....
|
|
You do know there is a critter in a 8-9 sub tier that has a +25 to hit with 5 attacks right? Such things are getting more and more common these days...which is where the AC thing is coming from. If your playing a lot of the earlier seasons...yeah, AC is not really that big of an issue to keep up. That said, in higher tiers, it's not a big bad rip you apart monster that is gonna be the death of you....Actually, I probably over-emphasized the AC: base is 26, buffed is 32, and I can get it to 36 with Combat Expertise and two weapon defense.Using Kyle's APL+2 guideline, your 9th-level PC is looking at a CR11 monster. The "high attack" value for such a monster is +19. So unbuffed, you get hit on a 7. Ouch. But that's why you have buffs, right? :) At your buffed 32, they now need a 13 to hit you. That might be where you decide to pull out all the stops and get your 36, so they need a 17.
So it looks like if you ever see just one or two monsters, you should probably buff. If that's more buffing than you'd prefer to need (or if the numbers are still not to your liking when buffed), then consider putting AC items in more slots. But if you're cool with those numbers, then I guess you're set! :)
I think I'm to cry.... It's an NPC that can actually hit a level 9 druid's animal companion!
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
@Mike Linder: Yeah, but nobody's talking about saves being important because nobody disagrees with it. ;)
@Cold Napalm: I've played several 5-9 and 7-11 Season 4 scenarios with high-AC characters, and get missed more than hit. That +25 to hit with 5 attacks is not the norm, and a single example of a monster that counters a tactic does not invalidate the tactic across the board. Or would you say that mind-affecting effects are even worse than AC because of how many undead and constructs and swarms and such you face?
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
I'm thinking that most of the people who say "AC is useless" follow with (or imply) "unless you invest very heavily in it"
My post that you quoted refers to people who say "AC becomes irrelevant". So if that's not what Charon's little helper (or any other given person) said, then I wasn't referring to them. :)
Which would be what I said. Literally, compare your statement:
'I'm thinking that most of the people who say "AC is useless" follow with (or imply) "unless you invest very heavily in it"'...with my statement:
'I'm starting to wonder if when people say "AC becomes irrelevant" maybe they really mean "the amount of AC that I'm willing to invest in with my characters becomes irrelevant"'
See how they're pretty much the same? I said "Oh, I think people saying X actually mean X with Y qualifier", and your reply is "Actually, most people saying X mean X with Y qualifier".
So... I guess I'm glad we agree?
|
|
The problem I have with keeping my AC up is that eventually you need to start spending actions, and that's where I'm not sure it's economical (to be fair, I'm not sure it isn't, either).
When the map's in front of you and there's space for one more room and you're on your 5th encounter, no matter how much you try to resist metagaming, you're probably going to load up your buffs before you open the door. Right then, your 36 AC looks pretty good.
But you don't always have that opportunity. When you're dropped in a fight, is it worth the standard action to throw up Shield of Faith? Or two to add on Shield as well? Or are you better off trying to take the BBEG down before it gets a chance to test your AC?
I'll allow that the same applies to miss chance, except that you know (barring any special abilities) that Displacement will make them miss you half the time. The +2 to AC may make the difference between a hit and a crit, but you won't know until it happens.
As I said, I'm not arguing one way or the other. Just wondering how people approach the issue.
|
|
But you don't always have that opportunity. When you're dropped in a fight, is it worth the standard action to throw up Shield of Faith? Or two to add on Shield as well? Or are you better off trying to take the BBEG down before it gets a chance to test your AC?
This is the core of my HP > AC or miss chances unless they're permanent or immediate/swift actions.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
@redward:
I agree that you have to be careful with actions. That's why my 8th-level cleric has 30 AC *before* buffs; I have the option of using shield of faith for an extra +2, but it's just that: an option. If I'm better served doing something else, I do something else. Also, DPR is not a focus of this character, so "kill it in round 1" is not a viable alternative for him. Either way is viable, and I chose one and not the other.
My other recent high-level/high-AC character is an Eldritch Knight. His only AC buff that he uses is shield out of a wand in a spring-loaded wrist sheath. But *that* character has wicked initiative and always acts in the surprise round. That means that in most ambushes, he's acting before the ambush happens. What do you do when it's your turn and you know a fight is starting, but haven't actually seen anyone yet? Shield! In the case of non-ambushes, that high init means I get to look at the battlefield and assess my best role: are there more baddies than the other tank(s) can block, or maybe the mooks are dangerous but I want to save spells? I cast shield and get ready for melee. Is everybody in fireball formation and my party has enough melee support? Boom goes the dynamite!
More generally: It's already been mentioned that charging in on round 1 is bad when the enemy has 5 attacks; let them come to you. Is it really such a bad idea for that first turn to be an AC buff instead of readying to attack a monster who might be intelligent enough to not charge in anyway, or who might have pounce and negate your readying tactic, or any number of other things? Either way you spend your first round getting ready so they can come to you instead of you going to them and getting full attacked. Perfect time for a well-chosen buff. :)
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
But you don't always have that opportunity. When you're dropped in a fight, is it worth the standard action to throw up Shield of Faith? Or two to add on Shield as well? Or are you better off trying to take the BBEG down before it gets a chance to test your AC?This is the core of my HP > AC or miss chances unless they're permanent or immediate/swift actions.
Ah, I missed the "unless" caveat when you said it earlier. That makes more sense; my high-AC guys tend to be static or static-plus-one-quick-buff.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bah, my ability to post in the reserve expired while I was building. Woops! So here is two of the promised builds, I will do the third later (brain melting from math).
All of these builds are 12th level, using core races only, and with 110,000 gp. Often times employing aasimar or tiefling as a race, and dumping stats will further improve these figures. In these examples I will strive to demonstrate how even standard race, non dump-stat (a single 8 only) builds can function well, however.
Tier 1 example: halfling fighter (aldori swordlord) 7/aldori swordlord (prestige class) 1/duelist (prestige class) 4
Base attributes: Str 6, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 12
With level ups: Str 6, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 12
With items: Str 6, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 12
Feats: aldori dueling mastery, cautious fighter, combat expertise, combat reflexes, dazzling display, dodge, exotic weapon proficiency (aldori dueling sword), improved critical (aldori dueling sword), mobility, weapon finesse, weapon focus (aldori dueling sword), weapon specialization (aldori dueling sword)
Improtant class features: canny defemse, deft strike, precise strike, steel net
Items: +2 aldori dueling sword, +3 mithral chain shirt, amulet of natural armor +3, belt of incredible dexterity +4, headband of vast intellect +2, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack rolls), dusty rose prism ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, ring of protection +3, about 20k left to spend as desired.
AC 40, touch 28, flat-footed 28
10, base
1, size
7, Dex
4, Int (canny defense)
1, dodge
7, armor
3, natural
3, deflection
1, insight
1, luck
2, shield (aldori dueling mastery)
May choose to fight defensively, gaining -2 to hit and +7 to AC. . .
-4 to hit, +2 AC - base fighting defensively
-4 to hit, +3 AC - 3 ranks acrobatics
-2 to hit, +5 AC - steel net class feature
-2 to hit, +7 AC - cautious fighter feat
and use combat expertise for another -4 to hit and +4 AC. . .
Base attack routine +24/+19/+14 melee (1d6+15/19-20 x2)
attack is
12, BAB
1, size
7, Dex
2, weapon bonus
1, weapon focus
1, competence
damage is
7, Dex
2, weapon specialization
2, wepon bonus
4, precise strike
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tier 2: human (dual talent) vanilla fighter 12
Base attributes: Str 17, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
With level ups: Str 20, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
With items: Str 24, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: combat expertise, dodge, double slice, improved critical (short sword), improved shield bash, improved two-weapon fighting, two-weapon fighting, shield focus, shield master, shield slam, two-weapon rend, weapon focus (short sword), weapon specialization (short sword)
Important class features: armor training 3, weapon training 2 (close +1, light blades +2)
Items: +2 short sword, +4 full plate, +4 heavy steel shield, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of giant strength +4, gloves of dueling, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack rolls), dusty rose prism ioun stone, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, ring of protection +2, around 6k left
AC 42, touch, 19, flat-footed 37
10, base
4, Dex
1, trait (defender of the society)
1, dodge
13, armor
7, shield (including shield focus)
2, natural
2, deflection
1, insight
1, luck
and use combat expertise for another -4 to hit and +4 AC. . .
Base attack routine is (sword) +25/+20/+15 (1d6+15/17-20 x2) and (shield) +28/+23 (1d4+14/20 x2)
12, BAB
7, Str
4/3, weapon training (sword/shield)
2/4, weapon bonus (sword/shield)
1, competence
1, weapon focus (sword only)
-2/-0, two-weapon (sword/shield
damage is
7, Str
4/3, weapon training (sword/shield)
2/4, weapon bonus (sword/shield)
2, weapon specialization (sword only)
|
|
There's a lot of talking about AC in this thread, so I want to add that at higher levels saves become just as if not more important (in my somewhat limited experience). Especially when you hit the 10-11 subtier you can face opponents where the combat turns on the party making saves.
Sure you may get hit by that disintegrate, but make your save and it's not nearly so bad. That glabrezu mentioned above can deal out damage, but it can also use confusion which has the potential to kill a party far faster than just using it's melee attacks.
For this reason my level 8 Zen Archer just spent a couple scenario's worth of coin on a cloak of resistance +3 and a cracked pale green prism ioun stone for another +1 to saves (see Seekers of Secrets). As he continues to level up this should save his bacon far more than using that money on AC. I do agree in carrying potions of mage armor, blur, fly, etc. as well though.
This is a very important thing to note, and I couldn't agree more.
|
|
@Mike Linder: Yeah, but nobody's talking about saves being important because nobody disagrees with it. ;)Since the basis of the thread was a more general idea of how the game shifts as you go up in level I feel it's important to point this out though. You can get away with not buffing your saves at all for quite a while, but at some point it becomes crucial to a characters survival. I ran a scenario the other day where a character hit the floor when they failed a save and lost 11 Str on top of taking 9 Str damage earlier in the scenario (at subtier 10-11).
Ghost touch armor + ring of deflection people!
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
|
What about casters? My sorceress is level 7, and only has an AC of 16, 19 with mage armor up. That's with:
Amulet +1 (natural)
Ring +1 (deflection)
Dexterity +2
Haramaki +1 (armor)
Mithral Buckler +1 (shield)
Obviously, I could enchant the armor & shield, and raise the value of the amulet & ring, but should I bother? Or should I start looking at miss chance instead?
In theory, I'm in the back, throwing status spells at baddies and not getting hit much. But that doesn't always hold up, and I'm pretty squishy.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
You need it for AAT which can reduce the spell failure chance
Ah, I forgot about that. You could instead just live with the ASF chance, and stick to non-somatic spells. A lot of those are great for melees (True Strike, Blur, Displacement, Dimension Door). With the armor expert trait, you could be wearing a mithral breastplate with no penalty.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
What about casters?
I was playing in a Season 4 tier 8-9 scenario, and our 7th-level wizard got full-attacked (four claws) as a monster came up out of the ground behind the party. Took her to 4 HP remaining, after which she cast vanish defensively and moved to a safer position. Next round she cast fly and took to the air, out of reach.
I'd say that seems like an effective defense for a caster type.
|
|
What about casters?I was playing in a Season 4 tier 8-9 scenario, and our 7th-level wizard got full-attacked (four claws) as a monster came up out of the ground behind the party. Took her to 4 HP remaining, after which she cast vanish defensively and moved to a safer position. Next round she cast fly and took to the air, out of reach.
I'd say that seems like an effective defense for a caster type.
It does affect movement, which is why reach rods were invented. Rod of Reach + Breath of Life.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
|
It also makes me laugh when I see caster clerics and oracles who never fight with weapons but still don't wear heavy armor. Literally all proficiency does is lower your attack so if you don't attack it doesn't matter if you are the armored version of the boy from the Christmas Story.
There are issues of mobility and encumbrance. My cleric has 12 Str and a mithral breastplate. With the Travel domain, that means I can move 40 feet per round. If I put him in heavy armor, that would be cut in half (if I did the math right). And I only get one Expeditious Retreat per day as my domain spell, so I need to be able to run away without it!
|
|
It also makes me laugh when I see caster clerics and oracles who never fight with weapons but still don't wear heavy armor. Literally all proficiency does is lower your attack so if you don't attack it doesn't matter if you are the armored version of the boy from the Christmas Story.Oh, I'm sure the fact that they probably have a low Strength has nothing to do with why they don't want to strap on a boat anchor...
EDIT: It also applies to ALL Dexterity- and Strength-based ability and skill checks, so it's not like they wouldn't take any penalties.
Ant haul is there for a reason. My strength 5 gnome wears plate and tower.
|
|
I don't know about anyone else, but I expect to continue to get my sorceress' diplomacy up. I'm really considering skill focus, but I might take one of the 2 skills/2 bonus feats with it. That +6 at tenth level might do the trick. Anyone have any experience with skill levels for out of combat situations?