Alchemists using wands


Advice

Grand Lodge

At our last session, a player who was playing a lvl 1 alchemist wanted to use his wand of cure light wounds. The GM informed him that he could not do so without making a Use Magic Device skill check. The player argued that his character had a spell list, because his formulas acted like spells, but the GM ruled against it. His ruling was based on the idea that
1. The class receives Use Magic Device as a class skill.
2. The book says that alchemists are able to make three types of magic items, which include extracts, bombs, and mutagens. So they are not spells.

Was the GM correct in making the alchemist use his skill to activate the wand?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Lasoric wrote:

At our last session, a player who was playing a lvl 1 alchemist wanted to use his wand of cure light wounds. The GM informed him that he could not do so without making a Use Magic Device skill check. The player argued that his character had a spell list, because his formulas acted like spells, but the GM ruled against it. His ruling was based on the idea that

1. The class receives Use Magic Device as a class skill.
2. The book says that alchemists are able to make three types of magic items, which include extracts, bombs, and mutagens. So they are not spells.

Was the GM correct in making the alchemist use his skill to activate the wand?

Quote:
Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so).

Wands are spell-trigger items

Scrolls are spell-completion

The alchemist can use wands just fine.

Grand Lodge

Thanks, you guys are pure genius.

Shadow Lodge

You might run into bigger problems trying to point this out to the GM based on their justification.

If you need to find it in the rules, it's in the back of the book in the Magic Items chapter; read the text for Wands and Scrolls; somewhere there it specifies which is spell completion and which is spell trigger.

Liberty's Edge

it actually says in the alchemist description in the APG that they can use any item that they can can have a formula for. Page 27, second column first paragraph upper right. So the GM was way off.


neferphras wrote:
it actually says in the alchemist description in the APG that they can use any item that they can can have a formula for. Page 27, second column first paragraph upper right. So the GM was way off.

Thomas Bond quoted the relevant portion in that Alchemist can use spell-trigger items, but not spell completion ones.

So they cannot use scrolls, even if they have that spell on their formulae list.

Liberty's Edge

agree on the scrolls, thats why i tool one wizard level, well it was one of the reasons.

the original question was about a wand.


Oh yes, I know. I just wanted to make sure it was understood that they cannot use ‘any item’, as they can’t use spell completion items.

The Exchange

They can use the scroll to scribe the spell into thier formula book.
or to prop open a door I guess. or maybe to ... but yeah, they can't cast the spell from a scroll.


nosig wrote:

They can use the scroll to scribe the spell into thier formula book.

or to prop open a door I guess. or maybe to ... but yeah, they can't cast the spell from a scroll.

Can they actually use a scroll to scribe a spell?

Quote:
An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs and time requirements. An alchemist can study a wizard’s spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them.

I'm not sure if "just like a wizard adds spells" means he can use the same sources or not.

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:

They can use the scroll to scribe the spell into thier formula book.

or to prop open a door I guess. or maybe to ... but yeah, they can't cast the spell from a scroll.

How would they do that since Read Magic is not on their formula list?

Contributor

Lasoric wrote:

At our last session, a player who was playing a lvl 1 alchemist wanted to use his wand of cure light wounds. The GM informed him that he could not do so without making a Use Magic Device skill check. The player argued that his character had a spell list, because his formulas acted like spells, but the GM ruled against it. His ruling was based on the idea that

1. The class receives Use Magic Device as a class skill.
2. The book says that alchemists are able to make three types of magic items, which include extracts, bombs, and mutagens. So they are not spells.

Was the GM correct in making the alchemist use his skill to activate the wand?

Your GM is correct. An alchemist does not have a caster level and does not cast spells. Therefore, he can't even qualify for Craft Wand and must make a Use Magic Device in order to utilize them.

Alchemists do not have a spell list. It is very clearly called a Formula List in the game, and they do not prepare spells. They prepare extracts. If no distinction was made, then calling them formulae and extracts would be superfluous and they would be coined "alchemist spells" and "alchemist spell list."

The Advanced Player's Guide goes out of its way to avoid this.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

trollbill wrote:
nosig wrote:

They can use the scroll to scribe the spell into thier formula book.

or to prop open a door I guess. or maybe to ... but yeah, they can't cast the spell from a scroll.
How would they do that since Read Magic is not on their formula list?

You can make a Spellcraft check to decipher it, but if you buy the scroll yourself, I imagine you can skip that step since you already know what it is.


trollbill wrote:
nosig wrote:

They can use the scroll to scribe the spell into thier formula book.

or to prop open a door I guess. or maybe to ... but yeah, they can't cast the spell from a scroll.
How would they do that since Read Magic is not on their formula list?

Can someone with read magic read the magic to someone else?

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Your GM is correct. An alchemist does not have a caster level and does not cast spells. Therefore, he can't even qualify for Craft Wand and must make a Use Magic Device in order to utilize them.

Alchemists do not have a spell list. It is very clearly called a Formula List in the game, and they do not prepare spells. They prepare extracts. If no distinction was made, then calling them formulae and extracts would be superfluous and they would be coined "alchemist spells" and "alchemist spell list."

The Advanced Player's Guide goes out of its way to avoid this.

Bondoid already quoted the rule, in the second post, that says alchemists can use spell-trigger items, which is what wands are.


Trollbill: the spell Read Magic is not needed to decipher a scroll. A spellcraft check will also work. Also, the Alchemist rules in the APG say "An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them."

Alexander Agunas: Incorrect. Read the thread.


Alexander Augunas wrote:
Lasoric wrote:

At our last session, a player who was playing a lvl 1 alchemist wanted to use his wand of cure light wounds. The GM informed him that he could not do so without making a Use Magic Device skill check. The player argued that his character had a spell list, because his formulas acted like spells, but the GM ruled against it. His ruling was based on the idea that

1. The class receives Use Magic Device as a class skill.
2. The book says that alchemists are able to make three types of magic items, which include extracts, bombs, and mutagens. So they are not spells.

Was the GM correct in making the alchemist use his skill to activate the wand?

Your GM is correct. An alchemist does not have a caster level and does not cast spells. Therefore, he can't even qualify for Craft Wand and must make a Use Magic Device in order to utilize them.

Alchemists do not have a spell list. It is very clearly called a Formula List in the game, and they do not prepare spells. They prepare extracts. If no distinction was made, then calling them formulae and extracts would be superfluous and they would be coined "alchemist spells" and "alchemist spell list."

The Advanced Player's Guide goes out of its way to avoid this.

As has been said before in this thread, the GM was not correct. Your logic is contradicted by the actual rules text in the class description:
Quote:
Although the alchemist doesn’t actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formulae list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so).

Wands are spell-trigger items. An alchemist can use them if the spell is on his formulae list.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

RainyDayNinja wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
The Advanced Player's Guide goes out of its way to avoid this.
Bondoid already quoted the rule, in the second post, that says alchemists can use spell-trigger items, which is what wands are.

And the Advanced Player's Guide goes out of its way to spell this out.

Grand Lodge

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Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Trollbill: the spell Read Magic is not needed to decipher a scroll. A spellcraft check will also work. Also, the Alchemist rules in the APG say "An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them."

Good to know. Though since my alchemist is a PFS Alchemist it's cheaper for me to simply pay an NPC to let me copy spells out of his book. Before I learned I could do that I was learning new formula primarily by sampling every potion in a mod with a Formula Alembic.


trollbill wrote:
Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:

Trollbill: the spell Read Magic is not needed to decipher a scroll. A spellcraft check will also work. Also, the Alchemist rules in the APG say "An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them."

Good to know. Though since my alchemist is a PFS Alchemist it's cheaper for me to simply pay an NPC to let me copy spells out of his book. Before I learned I could do that I was learning new formula primarily by sampling every potion in a mod with a Formula Alembic.

Though it's worth bearing in mind if scrolls get found during the game. If you have the time, you should be able to add them in play, only paying the actual scribing costs, right?

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
RainyDayNinja wrote:
Alexander Augunas wrote:
The Advanced Player's Guide goes out of its way to avoid this.
Bondoid already quoted the rule, in the second post, that says alchemists can use spell-trigger items, which is what wands are.
And the Advanced Player's Guide goes out of its way to spell this out.

Way to productively contribute to the thread, Jiggy. >_>

Thanks for pointing out that rule, TheJeff & RDN. Wasn't aware of it, and it is certainly a good thing to know.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alexander Augunas wrote:
Way to productively contribute to the thread, Jiggy. >_>

Sorry, I'm a sucker for irony. Same as if someone had misspelled a word while correcting someone else's misspelling. Nothing personal, just giggling to myself. :)

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:


Though it's worth bearing in mind if scrolls get found during the game. If you have the time, you should be able to add them in play, only paying the actual scribing costs, right?

Yes, and if you are fortunate enough to adventure with a Wizard or another Alchemist you can copy from them too.

Now if there was just some way of copying spells from a Witch's Familiar.

"Hold your damned cat still. I'm trying to copy from it!"

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