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~Panther Style~
"Benefit: While using this style, when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square, you can spend a swift action to make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent. Your attack is resolved after the triggering attack of opportunity."
~Panther Claw~
"Benefit: While using Panther Style, you can spend a free action, instead of spending a swift action, to make a retaliatory unarmed strike. You can make a number of retaliatory unarmed strikes on your turn equal to your Wisdom modifier."
~Panther Parry~
"Benefit: While using Panther Style, your retaliatory unarmed strikes are resolved before the triggering attacks. If your retaliatory unarmed strike deals damage to an opponent, that opponent takes a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls with the triggering attack of opportunity."
~Snake Style~
"Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Sense Motive checks, and you can deal piercing damage with your unarmed strikes. While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent targets you with a melee or ranged attack, you can spend an immediate action to make a Sense Motive check. You can use the result as your AC or touch AC against that attack. You must be aware of the attack and not flat-footed."
~Snake Sidewind~
"Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus to CMD against trip combat maneuvers and on Acrobatics checks and saving throws to avoid being knocked prone. While using the Snake Style feat, whenever you score a critical threat with your unarmed strike, you can make a Sense Motive check in place of the attack roll to confirm the critical hit. Whenever you score a critical hit with your unarmed strike, you can spend an immediate action to take a 5-foot step even if you have otherwise moved this round."
~Snake Fang~
"Benefit: While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent’s attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent."
My questions are:
1.) If the threatening target took an AoO against the player, but substituted a CMB for a Melee or Ranged attack, would Snake Fang trigger off of this?
2.) If in Panther Style with Claw and Parry, if the threatening target took an AoO against the player, would Panther Parry allow the Player to effectively use a combat maneuver to Trip them? If so, do the penalties from the successful trip apply immediately before the creature actually finishes up it's AoO?
3.) Biggest question: Snake Fang and Panther Claw both refer to some form of a counterattack. It however mentions "retaliatory unarmed strike" or "unarmed strike" being the action taken against the threatening opponent. Does this purely mean only an IUS or US can be used? Or can it can still be substituted for a combat maneuver?
1) Yes. Combat Maneuvers are a type of attack.
2) Yes. Note that the -2 from Parry won't occur because Trip doesn't deal damage, but it will now be delivering the AOO from a prone position. Of course, this depends on question 3...
3) According to the rules as written, it appears that you can only do unarmed strikes and you cannot swap in a combat maneuver. If it just said 'attack' instead of 'unarmed strike', it would be certainly possible but it doesn't so it is up to GM discretion.
1) Yes. Combat Maneuvers are a type of attack.
How do you "miss" on a combat maneuver to proc snake fang?
I say this only because there was a thread about the combo of Snake Fang and Crane Style and whether a deflection counted as a miss for the purpose of activating Snake Fang. The resulting FAQ from this thread was no.
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MurphysParadox said it right I think, so I will add only a single unconnected thing about this two styles.
If you combine them, be careful how you use immediate/swift actions because for example a Snake Style and Panther Style alone wouldn't work together because both consume two of those actions. If you take Panther Claw however, this becomes less of an issue.
1d20 + Attacker's Offensive Bonus vs Target's Defense Score. If A >= B it is a hit; else a miss. It appears that there is a pile of very specific word analysis going on in the linked thread (and the thread linked from that thread).
If you follow the idea that a CM cannot miss, it can only fail, then the answer to question 1 is No.
I personally follow the idea that Combat Maneuvers cannot miss, because they also cannot hit. Per the rules, they either only succeed or fail.
During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers that can hinder or even cripple your foe, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Although these maneuvers have vastly different results, they all use a similar mechanic to determine success.
Combat Maneuver Bonus: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Bonus (or CMB) that represents its skill at performing combat maneuvers. A creature's CMB is determined using the following formula:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMB when performing specific maneuvers.
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:
CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier
The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.
Determine Success: If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.
Please note it never says hit or miss, only success or failure. Further, it only ever mentions it uses an attack roll, not that it is an attack (and i mean in the specific sense of something that deals damage like a melee or ranged attack, not in the general sense of aggressive action. This also raises the issue of how terms like "attack" can be used too generally in this game, but that is another topic of discussion.)
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On strict reading, it does seem that, while melee and ranged attacks are phrased in terms of "hit" and "miss", maneuvers are phrased as "success" and "failure" so, even though maneuvers are still Attacks that involve Attack rolls, successful attack rolls result in "successful maneuver" rather than "hit" and unsuccessful attack rolls result in "failed maneuver" rather than "miss". This even applies to "striking" type maneuvers such as Sunder or Disarm. So, strictly speaking, the answer would be 'No', an unsuccessful combat maneuver doesn't counts as a Miss for Snake Fang, though even subbing a maneuver on an AoO does count as an 'attack' for Panther Style. Regarding whether the retaliatory attacks and AoOs provided by the two styles cannot be subbed for maneuvers, I refer you to Vicious Stomp:
It specifies explicitly that your attack must be an unarmed strike. Normally, you can sub in a Trip, Disarm, or Sunder for a melee attack and Unarmed Strike counts as a melee attack. However, since Vicious Stomp states it "must" be an unarmed strike, no sub is valid. The attacks provided by Panther and Snake styles say that they "are" unarmed strikes, but unarmed strikes can still be turned into trips, disarms, or sunders. So you are able to perform those maneuvers, but they must use the attack bonuses associated with your unarmed strikes and cannot, for example, benefit from Weapon Focus (Temple Sword).Vicious Stomp:
Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike.
I agree 100% about Panther style because an AoO is an attack of oppurtunity whether or not it is a melee attack or a combat maneuver.
I disagree about the substituting combat maneuvers when it says unarmed strikes, and until we get clarification otherwise will operate that way.
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On strict reading, it does seem that, while melee and ranged attacks are phrased in terms of "hit" and "miss", maneuvers are phrased as "success" and "failure" so, even though maneuvers are still Attacks that involve Attack rolls, successful attack rolls result in "successful maneuver" rather than "hit" and unsuccessful attack rolls result in "failed maneuver" rather than "miss". This even applies to "striking" type maneuvers such as Sunder or Disarm. So, strictly speaking, the answer would be 'No', an unsuccessful combat maneuver doesn't counts as a Miss for Snake Fang, though even subbing a maneuver on an AoO does count as an 'attack' for Panther Style. Regarding whether the retaliatory attacks and AoOs provided by the two styles cannot be subbed for maneuvers, I refer you to Vicious Stomp:
It specifies explicitly that your attack must be an unarmed strike. Normally, you can sub in a Trip, Disarm, or Sunder for a melee attack and Unarmed Strike counts as a melee attack. However, since Vicious Stomp states it "must" be an unarmed strike, no sub is valid. The attacks provided by Panther and Snake styles say that they "are" unarmed strikes, but unarmed strikes can still be turned into trips, disarms, or sunders. So you are able to perform those maneuvers, but they must use the attack bonuses associated with your unarmed strikes and cannot, for example, benefit from Weapon Focus (Temple Sword).Vicious Stomp:
Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike.
That... is a very smart way to look at it.
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On strict reading, it does seem that, while melee and ranged attacks are phrased in terms of "hit" and "miss", maneuvers are phrased as "success" and "failure" so, even though maneuvers are still Attacks that involve Attack rolls, successful attack rolls result in "successful maneuver" rather than "hit" and unsuccessful attack rolls result in "failed maneuver" rather than "miss". This even applies to "striking" type maneuvers such as Sunder or Disarm. So, strictly speaking, the answer would be 'No', an unsuccessful combat maneuver doesn't counts as a Miss for Snake Fang, though even subbing a maneuver on an AoO does count as an 'attack' for Panther Style. Regarding whether the retaliatory attacks and AoOs provided by the two styles cannot be subbed for maneuvers, I refer you to Vicious Stomp:
It specifies explicitly that your attack must be an unarmed strike. Normally, you can sub in a Trip, Disarm, or Sunder for a melee attack and Unarmed Strike counts as a melee attack. However, since Vicious Stomp states it "must" be an unarmed strike, no sub is valid. The attacks provided by Panther and Snake styles say that they "are" unarmed strikes, but unarmed strikes can still be turned into trips, disarms, or sunders. So you are able to perform those maneuvers, but they must use the attack bonuses associated with your unarmed strikes and cannot, for example, benefit from Weapon Focus (Temple Sword).Vicious Stomp:
Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike.I agree 100% about Panther style because an AoO is an attack of oppurtunity whether or not it is a melee attack or a combat maneuver.
I disagree about the substituting combat maneuvers when it says unarmed strikes, and until we get clarification otherwise will operate that way.
My first instinct was that you could not substitute the unarmed strikes for combat maneuvers, but after reading over a blog post on maneuvers
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcom?Combat-Maneuvers-and-Weapon-Speci al-Features
I have started thinking it would, since it calls out "unarmed strike" as essentially just being a type of weapon, and these are (for snake style at least) still melee attacks of opportunity using that weapon (for sunder, trip and disarm, the ones that are explicitly called out as being able to apply weapon bonuses on in the blog post)
I do agree that this is a fuzzy grey line, and that anyone should discuss it with their GM before counting on using it. No whining permitted if the GM says "no". ;-)
EDIT: yes, I know most of the people in this thread have heard me say all this before elsewhere, that was for the benefit of any lurkers who stumble upon this in the future trying to figure this out for themselves.
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99% of the time I always go with whatever answering is most limiting. Despite these feats not saying "must" like Vicious Stomp, I think that is the implication.
So, lets get an FAQ.
In the feats Panther Style and Snake Fang they reference making an unarmed strike, can these strikes be substituted for combat maneuvers or are they specifically unarmed strikes?