Not enough Not Australia - either indigenous or colonial.
Because who needs black people in fantasy, right?
Keep in mind that when I said "here be black people" isn't particularly fantastic, by proxy I also meant "here be *any pigment of human*". That said, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the guy over in Numeria a "black guy" or is my limited cognition of racial difference showing?
Isn't he? I mean, I know he has really dark-pigmented skin. Or does he not count because he's not in "Not-Africa"?
But you're right in part. Talking gorillas are a draw and they belong in not-Africa. (Gnolls, meh, whatever.) Maybe they should replace all the European types in the north with cool non-humans.
They did in some cases. The Mana Wastes and Mwawai Expanse aren't the only regions with non-humanoid creatures. As I pointed out, Ustalav depicts a blood-sucking undead monster, Geb depicts an undead demigoddess, and some places just depict badass looking armored characters like Cheliax depicting a Hellknight.
OTOH, having those non-humans as the only visible representations in Central Africa and having no representations of black Africans at all, I don't think seeing a racist slant in that is itself racist. If there had been another nation represented by an image of a black African, I doubt it would have come up.
So assuming the dark-pigmented guy in Numeria is a "black guy" he's not good enough because he's not depicted as being "not-African" from "not-Africa"?
It's also hard to imagine what a first impression would be like. You and I are both familiar with Paizo and Golarion. We know the setting has depth and we know that Paizo isn't racist. This is a poster, a marketing tool. It's going to be some people's first impression. That needs a little extra care.
Again, the OP didn't seem to have any issue with Ustalav, and I actually think yeah it probably would have been pretty awesome to see more orcs and hobgoblins and goblins and lizardfolk and stuff, but to my knowledge I don't think those creatures have particularly dense populations or outposts that are noteworthy as a regional campaign-point sans maybe goblins around the Varisian area but I'm not even sure how special they are there honestly (maybe someone more knowledgeable about Golarion can add to this).
Meanwhile Intelligent talking Gorillas and Hyena men I'm pretty sure kind of stand out. It would definitely catch my attention faster than another human (just like the vampire, hellknight, and bigass demon did). >_>
But this probably shows a funny thing about racism. It can be implied in anything if you're trying hard enough.
Wait, there aren't any Black people in central Garund? Where the hell did all the Mawangi go?The M'wangi are still there.
There aren't any on the poster map that started this. Just a gorilla and a gnoll where you're expect them to be.
No one in this whole discussion has argued that Paizo is actually racist, just whether the OP is "the worst kind of racist" for thinking the map images are questionable.
Well it being the "worst kind of racism" is kind of my opinion and not a subjective thing at all. I find it to be insidious because it it's subtle. It's born of thinking of people as being different and separating people into little groups which breeds more racism.
It's like a racism mold that grows. Like brown mold in D&D. It's really unassuming but it's there. Then you just need someone to fan some flames at it and voooosh, all new feelings of racism budding in people even if they didn't have them before! :O
Plus it creates more issues when there is no convenient way to draw little lines in the sand around us, like with my friend I used to play Magic the Gathering with. His parents were "black" and "asian" with obvious facial features associated with both. He had dark skin, thick fuzzy hair with a shiny sheen, sharp eye features, and sparse body hair. We would chat about things like the MtG tournament scene in Japan (where he spent a good portion of his life) compared to our little small town stuff in Eastern North Carolina.
Why is there not a person on the Golarion map that represents him?
Why is there not a person on the Golarion map that represents me (I'm a purebred mutt, with a mixture of Irish, Scottish, Cherokee, and German). Why is there no representation for me!? The outrage!
/sarcasm
This is the problem with this sort of insidious racism. It's subtle and often possessed by people who seem to crusade against racism.
I guess it's like those wise words of Friedrich Nietzsche...
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I'll give the rebuttal that I and others used earlier, but I'm not going to get drawn further back into this:
I don't think the OP looked at the gnoll or the gorilla and thought: Those remind me of black people. He looked at the map, saw the pattern that suggested Garund was an African analogue (which it blatantly is) and saw that the sub-Saharan analogue as represented by gnolls and gorillas and that black people were conspicuously absent.That's not racism. That's drawing an obvious inference.
Having freelanced on parts of 'Heart of the Jungle', I can only ask how exactly you could miss the many pages discussing the multiple human ethnic groups in the area, a number of whom take inspiration from snapshots in time and space of several different real world cultures?
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Having freelanced on parts of 'Heart of the Jungle', I can only ask how exactly you could miss the many pages discussing the multiple human ethnic groups in the area, a number of whom take inspiration from snapshots in time and space of several different real world cultures?
I'll give the rebuttal that I and others used earlier, but I'm not going to get drawn further back into this:
I don't think the OP looked at the gnoll or the gorilla and thought: Those remind me of black people. He looked at the map, saw the pattern that suggested Garund was an African analogue (which it blatantly is) and saw that the sub-Saharan analogue as represented by gnolls and gorillas and that black people were conspicuously absent.That's not racism. That's drawing an obvious inference.
How exactly could you miss that this thread is about a marketing poster which was purportedly the OP's first introduction to Golarion, not about the campaign setting?
People looking at a map that represents "Europe" with people and "Africa" with monsters haven't read Heart of the Jungle. Thejeff is pointing out that the particular marketing poster is a poor representation of the campaign setting for people who know nothing about Golarion.
I can't tell with the resolution of the image. Somewhere in the thread someone found a larger version of the map, but a quick skim through didn't turn it up.
I'd guess it's unlikely though. Numeria is mostly Kellid, not Mwangi. Picking one to represent it would be odd. And he really doesn't look the part.
He may be Garundi (you know, Golarion's non-Mwangi black people). And, if so, there's nothing wrong with using him even in Numeria because Garundi peoples can be found everywhere - not confined to not-Africa.
Having freelanced on parts of 'Heart of the Jungle', I can only ask how exactly you could miss the many pages discussing the multiple human ethnic groups in the area, a number of whom take inspiration from snapshots in time and space of several different real world cultures?
I'll give the rebuttal that I and others used earlier, but I'm not going to get drawn further back into this:
I don't think the OP looked at the gnoll or the gorilla and thought: Those remind me of black people. He looked at the map, saw the pattern that suggested Garund was an African analogue (which it blatantly is) and saw that the sub-Saharan analogue as represented by gnolls and gorillas and that black people were conspicuously absent.That's not racism. That's drawing an obvious inference.
How exactly could you miss that this thread is about a marketing poster which was purportedly the OP's first introduction to Golarion, not about the campaign setting?
People looking at a map that represents "Europe" with people and "Africa" with monsters haven't read Heart of the Jungle. Thejeff is pointing out that the particular marketing poster is a poor representation of the campaign setting for people who know nothing about Golarion.
I agree. Mwangi is one of my favorite (if not the) favorite part of golarion. The tribes in there are so cool, terrifying and inspiring. I always wanted to place campaings there. I think the poster does a poor job.
He may be Garundi (you know, Golarion's non-Mwangi black people). And, if so, there's nothing wrong with using him even in Numeria because Garundi peoples can be found everywhere - not confined to not-Africa.Possible, I suppose, though a bit odd since he wouldn't be representative of the common population or of the area's theme.
I really can't tell from the image I can find. Anyone have a higher resolution one? I know there's one out there.
I would expect that being kitted up like a member of the Technic League would be more important than his specific race - as far as capturing the theme of the local area.
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I was at a game store for a gameday/mini-con, when I chanced to get a good look at a poster advertising Pathfinder. (This the best pic I could find of it: http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PZO/PZO9226POSTER_500.jpeg)
I was seated pretty much facing this poster, so I pondered it a little bit. And if you squint at it, it looks like Europe and Africa. I've heard people say they think the setting is really creative, so I was surprised that it looked like a cliched Not-Europe.
So, during a break in the game, I went in closer to take a better look. There's different bubbles pointing at different areas, with a name and quick synopsis.
I had a good laugh looking at the top half of the map. Scandinavia is huge, because clearly Scandinavia is METAL, and there's a country of viking dwarf dragonslayers or something, which is pretty awesome, and a Transylvania/Ravenloft analogue, and something that looks like Grimdark France, and Romantic Spain in the middle of Europe, and Italy's been taken and put off of Scandinavia, and to the east there's some steampunk barbarian land, which is the only thing that seemed at all imaginative (but could possibly also be an analog for Czar Peter brings western technology to Russia).
Anyway, it looked a little interesting. Still obviously Not-Europe, but maybe if it was rotated like 90 degrees, the comparison wouldn't be so obvious.Then I looked at Not-Africa, and it wasn't funny anymore.
There's seven civilizations in with text bubbles on the bottom half of the map. In the northeastern part of Not-Africa, we have “Osirion,” which is land of Pharoahs and Pyramids and clearly Not-Egypt. The Nile is clearly on the map. To the east, we have a Not-Arabia nation. These are direct historical analogues, much clearer and obvious than the ones in Europe which seemed to involve at least some imagination at first glance.
There's a nasty looking North-Not-African Nation, and an empire of (white) Liches on the East Coast. But mostly I am concerned about the three...
Honestly, I think you're looking way too much into it. It's one poster, which is way too small a representative sample of the sample to be trying to determine this kind of thing. Hell, it doesn't even have all the various areas mentioned.
Besides, it's hard to be racist when your iconic Paladin, the representative sample of "Paragon of Truth and Justice" is a black woman.
Point of order:
IIRC, Willow X expressed amusement that we all assumed she was a he.
I was thinking Warwick Davis, but I guess she was thinking Alyson Hanigan.
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...I was at a game store for a gameday/mini-con, when I chanced to get a good look at a poster advertising Pathfinder. (This the best pic I could find of it: http://paizo.com/image/product/catalog/PZO/PZO9226POSTER_500.jpeg)
I was seated pretty much facing this poster, so I pondered it a little bit. And if you squint at it, it looks like Europe and Africa. I've heard people say they think the setting is really creative, so I was surprised that it looked like a cliched Not-Europe.
So, during a break in the game, I went in closer to take a better look. There's different bubbles pointing at different areas, with a name and quick synopsis.
I had a good laugh looking at the top half of the map. Scandinavia is huge, because clearly Scandinavia is METAL, and there's a country of viking dwarf dragonslayers or something, which is pretty awesome, and a Transylvania/Ravenloft analogue, and something that looks like Grimdark France, and Romantic Spain in the middle of Europe, and Italy's been taken and put off of Scandinavia, and to the east there's some steampunk barbarian land, which is the only thing that seemed at all imaginative (but could possibly also be an analog for Czar Peter brings western technology to Russia).
Anyway, it looked a little interesting. Still obviously Not-Europe, but maybe if it was rotated like 90 degrees, the comparison wouldn't be so obvious.Then I looked at Not-Africa, and it wasn't funny anymore.
There's seven civilizations in with text bubbles on the bottom half of the map. In the northeastern part of Not-Africa, we have “Osirion,” which is land of Pharoahs and Pyramids and clearly Not-Egypt. The Nile is clearly on the map. To the east, we have a Not-Arabia nation. These are direct historical analogues, much clearer and obvious than the ones in Europe which seemed to involve at least some imagination at first glance.
There's a nasty looking North-Not-African Nation, and an empire of (white) Liches on the East
Actually, both Geb and Nex have been shown to be Garundi.
Don't get me wrong. Coming here to ask was certainly the right course of action. But her initial reaction was still overanalyzing from an extremely small and incomplete sampling. The Mawangi Expanse is no more a nation of ape-men than Andoran, to use an example of the same poster, is a nation of Halflings.
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OP came here wondering if perhaps Pazio and it's community was racist. She left convinced that Paizo's community is a bunch of xenophobes.
It'd be way cooler if she left thinking we were a community of xenomorphs.
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OP came here wondering if perhaps Pazio and it's community was racist. She left convinced that Paizo's community is a bunch of xenophobes.It'd be way cooler if she left thinking we were a community of xenomorphs.
I'm pretty sure I just passed John Hurt in the corridor, complaining of a stomach ache.
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I'm not sure if the people of Geb are white or not, but Nex and his arclords are pretty black, and they are by far the better magi than Geb's crew.
Both Geb and Nex are populated predominantly by black people. While not all of our art has reflected this--it can be surprisingly difficult to get fantasy artists to paint non-Caucasians, and sometimes you have to go to print with the art that you have--the intention has always been that that area (and Alkenstar, for that matter) is overwhelmingly black/POC.
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It's marketing material. It was [OP's] first contact with the setting. First impressions matter. And [OP] got a bad one.
This. We want to put our best foot forward at all times—if we misstep (hopefully rare!), being called on it helps us do better in future.
OP came here wondering if perhaps Pazio and it's community was racist. She left convinced that Paizo's community is a bunch of xenophobes.It'd be way cooler if she left thinking we were a community of xenomorphs.
We're not?
I'm not sure if the people of Geb are white or not, but Nex and his arclords are pretty black, and they are by far the better magi than Geb's crew.Both Geb and Nex are populated predominantly by black people. While not all of our art has reflected this--it can be surprisingly difficult to get fantasy artists to paint non-Caucasians, and sometimes you have to go to print with the art that you have--the intention has always been that that area (and Alkenstar, for that matter) is overwhelmingly black/POC.
taht is interesting, what is the dificult with comisioning the art for non-caucasians?
I don't know what the reasons are with art in Paizo products specifically, but a lot of my artist friends have told me they weren't taught how to draw and paint non-white people (a couple photojournalist friends of mine mentioned some similar issues with photography -- lighting and retouching darker skin, especially). So things like bringing out features or showing bone structure or definition, that they've been taught how to do with Caucasian skin tones, don't work with darker skin.
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I'm not sure if the people of Geb are white or not, but Nex and his arclords are pretty black, and they are by far the better magi than Geb's crew.Both Geb and Nex are populated predominantly by black people. While not all of our art has reflected this--it can be surprisingly difficult to get fantasy artists to paint non-Caucasians, and sometimes you have to go to print with the art that you have--the intention has always been that that area (and Alkenstar, for that matter) is overwhelmingly black/POC.
Yeah, that particular issue has been really frustrating. :(
And it's not just humans. From River Into Darkness and Bastards of Golarion, we've yet to see any artwork for the Ekujae elves that actually gave them dark skin. Right now the most suitable artwork for an Ekujae character is actually the portrait for the Animal Lord from the Bestiaries.
I am really happy we got portraits for Nex, Geb, and Jatembe though. Now we just need a half-pager of daily life in Nantambu. ;)
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But the belt of gender changed, being cursed or not is subject to some intricacies. It's going to be a curse for some, and a manifest blessing for others depending on certain things.
Just to give everyone a visual of the effects of the belt of gender change: this.
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From River Into Darkness and Bastards of Golarion, we've yet to see any artwork for the Ekujae elves that actually gave them dark skin. Right now the most suitable artwork for an Ekujae character is actually the portrait for the Animal Lord from the Bestiaries.
There's also Asweya Stiyo from Towns of the Inner Sea (page 51)—she's is half-Ekujae, half-Garundi. But yeah, it's an issue we're wrestling with.
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From River Into Darkness and Bastards of Golarion, we've yet to see any artwork for the Ekujae elves that actually gave them dark skin. Right now the most suitable artwork for an Ekujae character is actually the portrait for the Animal Lord from the Bestiaries.There's also Asweya Stiyo from Towns of the Inner Sea (page 51)—she's is half-Ekujae, half-Garundi. But yeah, it's an issue we're wrestling with.
Gah! I knew I was forgetting someone! Sorry for jumping the gun there. And thanks for that entry by the way! :)
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But the belt of gender changed, being cursed or not is subject to some intricacies. It's going to be a curse for some, and a manifest blessing for others depending on certain things.Just to give everyone a visual of the effects of the belt of gender change: this.
Without the hair growing. Order of the stick comic had a good one for that
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Gah! I knew I was forgetting someone! Sorry for jumping the gun there. And thanks for that entry by the way! :)From River Into Darkness and Bastards of Golarion, we've yet to see any artwork for the Ekujae elves that actually gave them dark skin. Right now the most suitable artwork for an Ekujae character is actually the portrait for the Animal Lord from the Bestiaries.There's also Asweya Stiyo from Towns of the Inner Sea (page 51)—she's is half-Ekujae, half-Garundi. But yeah, it's an issue we're wrestling with.
If you pick up PFS scenarios, Destiny in the Sand, Part I has a gorgeous Garundi half-elf. (Unless she's recycled from somewhere?) Her skin tone is light, but her features and facial structure are right, at least.
Not going to comment on some of the stuff in this thread, just pointing out that , yes, Golarion is supposed to be roughly the same as Earth/Mediterranean Sea area. This was done on purpose by the staff.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=404?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Qu estions-Here#20167
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I'm not sure if the people of Geb are white or not, but Nex and his arclords are pretty black, and they are by far the better magi than Geb's crew.Both Geb and Nex are populated predominantly by black people. While not all of our art has reflected this--it can be surprisingly difficult to get fantasy artists to paint non-Caucasians, and sometimes you have to go to print with the art that you have--the intention has always been that that area (and Alkenstar, for that matter) is overwhelmingly black/POC.Yeah, that particular issue has been really frustrating. :(
And it's not just humans. From River Into Darkness and Bastards of Golarion, we've yet to see any artwork for the Ekujae elves that actually gave them dark skin. Right now the most suitable artwork for an Ekujae character is actually the portrait for the Animal Lord from the Bestiaries.
I am really happy we got portraits for Nex, Geb, and Jatembe though. Now we just need a half-pager of daily life in Nantambu. ;)
Hey Mikaze, have you gotten your PDF of Half-Dead City yet? One of the key NPC's is a half-Garundi Half Elf & I think they did a pretty good job of giving her more WOC bone structure while still keeping her elf-like traits. Granted, that still doesn't address the Ekujae, but it makes for a nice start.
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Hey Mikaze, have you gotten your PDF of Half-Dead City yet? One of the key NPC's is a half-Garundi Half Elf & I think they did a pretty good job of giving her more WOC bone structure while still keeping her elf-like traits. Granted, that still doesn't address the Ekujae, but it makes for a nice start.I'm not sure if the people of Geb are white or not, but Nex and his arclords are pretty black, and they are by far the better magi than Geb's crew.Both Geb and Nex are populated predominantly by black people. While not all of our art has reflected this--it can be surprisingly difficult to get fantasy artists to paint non-Caucasians, and sometimes you have to go to print with the art that you have--the intention has always been that that area (and Alkenstar, for that matter) is overwhelmingly black/POC.Yeah, that particular issue has been really frustrating. :(
And it's not just humans. From River Into Darkness and Bastards of Golarion, we've yet to see any artwork for the Ekujae elves that actually gave them dark skin. Right now the most suitable artwork for an Ekujae character is actually the portrait for the Animal Lord from the Bestiaries.
I am really happy we got portraits for Nex, Geb, and Jatembe though. Now we just need a half-pager of daily life in Nantambu. ;)
I did JUST THIS MOMENT and she is awesome. :D REALLY digging that as a possible look for the Ekujae!
491 posts on this thread. <shakes head> The mind boggles.
You don't have to tell me about the Reign of Terror, Citoyen.
What other country in Golarion do you think could possibly have been inspired by reading Les Miserables?
Vive le Galt!
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David walked into the valley
With a stone clutched in his hand
He was only a boy
But he knew someone must take a stand
There will always be a valley
Always mountains one must scale
There will always be perilous waters
Which someone must sail
Into valleys, into waters
Into jungles, into hell
Let us ride, let us ride home again with a story to tell
Into darkness, into danger
Into storms that rip the night
Don't give in, but give up
But give thanks for the glorious fight
You can tremble, you can fear it
But keep your fighting spirit alive boys
Let the shiver of it sting you
Fling into battle, spring to your feet boys
Never hold back your step for a moment
Never doubt that your courage will grow
Hold your head even higher and into the fire we go
Are there mountains that surround us?
Are there walls that block the way?
Knock 'em down, strip 'em back boys
And forward and into the fray
Into terror, into valour
Charge ahead, no, never turn
Yes, it's into the fire we fly
And the devil will burn
Someone has to face the valley
Rush in, we have to rally and win boys
When the world is saying not to
By God, you know you've got to march on, boys
Never hold back your step for a moment
Never doubt that your courage will grow
Hold your head ever higher and into the fire we go
Let the lightning strike
Let the flash of it shock you
Choke your fears away
Pull as tight as a wire
Let the fever strike
Let the force of it rock you
We will have our day, sailing into the fire
Someone has to face the valley
Rush in! We have to rally and win boys
When the world is saying not to
By God, you know you've got to march on, boys
Never hold back your step for a moment
Look alive! Oh, your courage will grow
Yes, it's higher and higher and into the fire we go
Into fire!
Onward, ho!
Sorry, my favorite song from one of my favorite musicals. I couldn't resist.