Is The Pathfinder Setting Ethically Problematic?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

301 to 350 of 520 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>

John Mangrum wrote:
WillowX wrote:

User junglefowl26 posts the following:

junglefowl26 wrote:

Not Africa also includes -

The most technologically advanced nation in the world, and the sole maker of guns.
The world's greatest magic academy - and the most ethically sound
A utopic civilization with direct ties to celestial beings
A mighty matriarchal militaristic empire
And a few other undetailed civilizations and cultures.
These are all really cool. Why weren't any of these on the poster? They're much more interesting than what was presented.
Some of them are off the map. The first one is mentioned on the poster.
Quote:

Mana Wastes

Magic Dead Wasteland
Ruined borderland of gunslingers and mutants.

Along with a picture of a Gnoll, that doesn't really convey "The most technologically advanced nation in the world" and certainly doesn't convey "black not-africans are highly advanced civilized people".


Tholomyes, I suspect if someone were to suggest that sexuality doesn't constitute identity the way handedness does, you'd scoff.

My wife is left-handed. As a child she was forced to do things with her right hand. Her father, also left-handed, had been raised that way and didn't see an problem with it. As a result she has handedness issues which bother the crap out of her. She very much self-identifies as a "left-handed" person.

I wasn't aware that you were the one who determined what people were allowed to self-identify as.

But beside the point. I really don't care if there is a left-handed post-op female transgendered bisexual with leanings towards lesbian iconic at all.

But then again, I don't need my identity issues validated by game content changes. I'm comfortable enough in my own skin as it is, it's not required for everyone else to accommodate my identity issues.

To each their own I suppose.


Lord Snow wrote:

The problem is not the presence of monsters in the Africa analogue, it's the lack of monsters in the Europe analogue. More accurately the problem is the difference in how each of the continents is presented.

While the Europe continent is presented in a way that showcases the human civilizations living in it (which presents the entire place as a human dominated area where the PCs are assumed to come from), the Africa continent is presented as a savage, exciting frontier filled with savage tribes, evil pirates and monsters.
In a way, this shows the Africa analogue like the European colonists perceived Africa when they first arrived. The end result is a euro-centric narrative, which presents one continent as the point of origin (if no humans are shown in the Africa analogue how would anyone play a character who came from there?), while the Africa analogue purely as an area to adventure in.

This is where Paul Ryan's post concerning the text next to each portrait is invaluable as it clearly describes most of the north as just as inhospitable as the south.

*Land of the Linnorm kings: Viking warrior, known through popular stereotypes of bloodthirsty marauders that rape, pillage, and murder; described as 'Brutal kingdom ruled by dragonslavers'.
*Numeria: described as a savage land with barbaric traditions.
*Belkzen: a very scary looking orc warrior with a description of a savage homeland for them that is ruled by bloodthirsty warlods.
*Taldor: called a failing empire.
Cheliax: wicked looking human(?) of indeterminate race standing in for a 'diablolical empire / infernal realm'.
*And my personal favorite, Ustalav: vampire chick with text that reads, quote, "Land of Fog-Shrouded Horror / Cursed land of ghosts and gothic villains".
ONLY Varisia and Andoran sound at all safe, appealing, or normal when you consider the full context of all the information on the poster. Similar thing with Garund. There's actual PEOPLE in both locations, though, so both are valid continents in which to start a human(ish) character. And if the idea is to show Africa the way Europe saw it, with the latter being so superior and civilized, why is so much of Avistan described as being barbaric, cruelly tyrannical, failing utterly in government, or just outright horrible in general?

Lord Snow wrote:
I DO think that the mentioned poster should be changed. Either show only monsters everywhere, or only people everywhere, or a good mix of monsters and people everywhere. While Paizo is at it, they're wholeheartedly invited to stop participating in offensive art of females, an issue I find much more urgent.

Agreed to an extent. For example, what the HECK is that thing next to Thuvia? I keep saying demon, but I have no idea whether and why that would be true. Put the alchemist who discovered the Sun Orchid elixir on there holding up a vial of the same. For the most part, though, a mix of people and 'monstrous-people', like undead, orcs, talking gorillas, etc, seems to work. It reinforces the idea that sometimes, a human being can be just as monstrously evil as anything from Hell itself. And since these are things you can either work with OR end up fighting, well, I'd certainly find it an appealing idea to play a campaign where you end up allying with a Gorilla king to fight corrupted dinosaurs in a jungle warped by a rift to the Abyss.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
But then again, I don't need my identity issues validated by game content changes. I'm comfortable enough in my own skin as it is, it's not required for everyone else to accommodate my identity issues.

The difference is, you're (presumably) not in the same situation as many LGBT people are in, where society treats them as abnormal or unnatural, simply for being who they are; It's great that you are comfortable in your own skin, but that's not the issue. The issue is the fact that there are many groups, such as the LGBT community, for whom that is an uphill battle, in the context of modern society.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Tirisfal wrote:
Marginalizing my sexuality with handedness to disrupt that inclusion is always going to be offensive to me at best.

I find your marginalizing my handiness offensive.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Steve Geddes wrote:
I don't think paizo included characters with diverse sexualities purely because some people are discriminated against for being non-heterosexual. I think they included them as a response to the disenfranchised groups' requests to be included. It is a way of showing support and "doing their bit".

I don't remember why Paizo as a whole chose to do it. I understand in part it's because of their employees and friends etc.

My point, which maybe I'm not making clear, is Paizo felt it important to include Kyra, that gal in Shattered Star, the couple in Sandpoint, etc. Just because they felt to include them doesn't mean they feel obligated to include every special snowflake.

That they don't include a special snowflake doesn't mean they're intentionally offending that special snowflake. It could simply mean they don't feel it's something they care to address, i.e. the left handed iconic or lack thereof.

To go back to the poster, I'm sure if they'd put one Garundi portrait with the note, "Demon worshiping Cannibals" and another with "Hafling survialist nation" we'd have someone screaming "Paizo thinks all blacks are demon worshippers and pygmies!"


Lord Snow wrote:
While Paizo is at it, they're wholeheartedly invited to stop participating in offensive art of females, an issue I find much more urgent.

I'll use my vote to say to Paizo that they please should continue to show a mix of sexy and sensibly clothed women.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Gorbacz wrote:
derrick mcmullin wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I think you've been told before that there's quite the difference between sexuality (or race, or religion, for the matter) and handedness, Matthew.

For starters, the latter can't get you jailed/killed anywhere in the world, and I don't think that writing with your left hand ever was a punishable offense in the US, while IIRC your country abolished anti-"sodomy" laws only recently.

Actually you should do some study on the treatment of left handed people. They were discriminated against as late as the early to mid 1900's. Certain people thought the left hand was the devils hand (due to some misinterpretation, in my view, of scripture). I have relatives that were beat out of being left handed. I'm not saying that this has the same standing as some of the topics be discussed but he does have a point

You have to draw a line somewhere, because otherwise every conversation about discrimination and inclusivity will look like this:

A: I want to discuss the image of Christians in this hobby. Half the material shows Christians as fanatic bloody zealots...
B: Oh really? And you don't want to discuss discrimination against cultists of Shub-Niggurath? Double standards! Hypocrisy! Christian exceptionalism! You're getting the paycheck from Vatican for this, aren't you?
A: ...

It's ok derrick,

Gorbaz is just used to inciting. He's upset to have his own logic turned against him.

Again, if he'd read the research, he'd note one of the links pointed out something as simple as standard school desks making life difficult for left handed chidren, in the present.

Gorbaz wants to draw the line. That's his problem. He doesn't like that I'm drawing it somewhere else.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Sean K Reynolds wrote:
thejeff wrote:

It's not just "This region contains demonic apes and gnolls", it's "This region contains demonic apes and gnolls where I would expect to find black people and there aren't actually any black people shown in that area."

We may have to just disagree here.

Idea: the poster is supposed to show adventuring options for adventurers who want to explore different lands and fight bad guys.

So... crazy "vikings."
Devil worshipers.
Gnolls.
Liches.
Pirates.
Demon apes.

Would it be less racist if the Africa-analogue continent, instead of showing demon apes for your character to fight, showed "black guys" for your character to fight?

On the balance, yes, definitely. If you portray the African analog as a more "wild" place full of heathens and pirates, and you fail to balance this with portrayals of actual people, that really plays into the idea of Darkest Africa, wild Africa, savage Africa. I don't for a second believe Paizo is staffed by racist colonialists. But here's the thing.

During the days of the Roman Republic and Empire, northern Africa was renowned as a place of wealth and culture. Well into the middle ages, there were numerous thriving kingdoms in Africa. During the Age of European Exploration, Europeans began colonizing Africa. As they did so, they began dismantling local political structures, dismantling and demoralizing sophisticated cultures, and upending sophisticated economies with mercantilism, conquest, and an assymmetric slave trade. And as they did so, Europeans convinced themselves this was okay because they told themselves Africa was sparsely populated, lacking in advanced culture, and under the sway of Satanic cults.

So let's replay that poster. It shows a vaguely African region that is apparently overrun by monsters, lacking in major human antagonists, and under the sway of liches and demon-worshipping gnolls. It treats what is supposed to be a human-inhabited, colorful, and ethnically diverse region as a monster safari.

At some level, D&D is a monster safari. And it may be at the end of the day all you can do is shrug and say, "Okay, yeah, it's a monster safari in Africa. We couldn't figure out any other way to make this work without touching on some problematic tropes, so we're dealing with that. Sorry. But we'll try to make this fun, and do our utmost to make the human side of Not-Africa respectful and address their humanity."

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

thejeff wrote:
[I think it's more "He should stop using it to argue against other forms of diversity or actually start pushing for it."

Good thing no one is making that argument.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
KSF wrote:
I just read up on what you're talking about. That sucks, if you've had to put up with that. However, one group who is subjected to harassment or discrimination saying, "Nah, we're fine, we can take it," doesn't mean that the concerns of other groups who face different harassments or discriminations are invalid. As you say, their concerns are as valid as yours, and they get to determine their own response to what they face.

Thank you. I've had to deal with worse, actually, for that and other issues, but you learn to deal with it as best as possible. My point wasn't that the concerns of any segment of the GLBTQ (can anyone tell me what the Q is supposed to stand for, btw) don't have valid concerns, far from it. However, I don't think they're being improperly addressed in this thread. When you have a very progressive and customer-focused company like Paizo that goes out of their way to be inclusive to people and ideas native to your interests and group, you don't start complaining when every little thing they do doesn't please you. You also certainly need to name specific,realistic examples of your grievances backed up with facts rather than just make general accusations.

Hence, my agreement with Matthew Morris and Adamantine Dragon on this matter. Yes, Matt's being sarcastic, he's trying to get a point across about how silly it is that people are berating this company for their supposed bigotry. Maybe Paizo has made a couple small missteps here and there (SKR's explanation on why the girdle is a cursed item should stand from a gameplay perspective, though), it happens when you're trying to run a company that puts out that much material on a decent schedule every year. They should be extended the benefit of the doubt just like any other person or group that hasn't proven themselves bereft of the capability to responsibly handle the concerns of their customer base. Disappointingly enough, some people in this thread refuse to do that, even going so far as to claim that the defense and explanations Paizo employees have shown up to give for why their progressive nature just doesn't match up to others expectations is an attack or insult! This thread started out accusing Paizo of racism to a degree in their products and then evolved into an argument about how it was that AND various types of sexism. Paizo, who openly feature a budding, realistic, lesbian romance in the comic line of their most successful product. Paizo, who made the one man that reinvented ALL of arcane magic for the entire world a black wizard from 'not-Africa'. Paizo, who consistently and thoroughly manages to deliver cool content for us without insulting the readers sensitivities, intelligence, or maturity, has to deal with accusations as serious as these. I just don't get why it had to happen.

And with that...I think I'm going to stop posting in this thread. I love discussing Golarion, but I never thought anyone who actually uses Paizo's products would need to defend them against their own fans and consumer base. It's disappointing, unnecessary, and I hope people will give them the benefit of the doubt for any small mistakes from now on.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
magnuskn wrote:
Lord Snow wrote:
While Paizo is at it, they're wholeheartedly invited to stop participating in offensive art of females, an issue I find much more urgent.
I'll use my vote to say to Paizo that they please should continue to show a mix of sexy and sensibly clothed women.

Eh, I'll use my vote to have Paizo take a page out of the Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor book, and do sexy while sensibly clothed women. Which they mostly do... with some notable exceptions.


Tholomyes wrote:

The problem with the fallacious argument of equating handedness with sexual orientation or cissexuality is that handedness doesn't constitute an identity the same way as the others do*. As such, the presence of those attributes in the setting (especially, when presented as non-token, and non stereotypical) not only acts to allow people beyond the white, heterosexual male to feel represented in the setting, but also acts as a validation of a facet of their identity, as a counterpoint to the real-life racism, sexism, and LGBT discrimination present in modern society. While I see no reason why there shouldn't be left handed characters, the presence of left handed characters in a setting doesn't have the same impact on a left-handed gamer, as the presence of a homosexual iconic would have on a gay or lesbian gamer.

At the risk of bringing in contemporary politics, it's thinking like that that leads the Congress of Racial Equality, with impeccable credentials as leaders in the civil rights movement, to award a Catholic bishop with a civil rights award for opposing gay marriage. While it may be true that the degree and pervasiveness of oppression and privilege may vary depending on the quality in question - handedness, race, sexual identity - we shouldn't be in the business of telling anyone their concerns aren't as important as someone else's, certainly not with respect to gaming. If it comes down to actually fixing problems or making inclusions, we may be forced to prioritize to make goals achievable. But as higher priority ones fall, we move on to lower priority ones, and fix as we can.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
And with that...I think I'm going to stop posting in this thread. I love discussing Golarion, but I never thought anyone who actually uses Paizo's products would need to defend them against their own fans and consumer base. It's disappointing, unnecessary, and I hope people will give them the benefit of the doubt for any small mistakes from now on.

Thank you. This sums up most of my feelings from this thread. You just can't please some people it seems.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
My point wasn't that the concerns of any segment of the GLBTQ (can anyone tell me what the Q is supposed to stand for, btw) don't have valid concerns, far from it.

Let me Google that for you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Morris wrote:
Again, if he'd read the research, he'd note one of the links pointed out something as simple as standard school desks making life difficult for left handed chidren, in the present.

Yeah, um, about that. I have friends who are teachers in three separate schools (2 High Schools, 1 Elementary school), and in classrooms nowadays there are plenty of left-handed desks, more than enough for the percentage of left-handed students. But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

KSF wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Seriously. I think what people do in their bedrooms is their own business, the Folsome Street Fair (So do not google, not safe for work at all) is a bridge too far. I don't 'need' a left handed iconic to feel included, nor do we need to have a 'quota' of lefties. If someone feels more validated that Kyra's gay/bi/whatever, more power to them, but don't get your knickers in a bunch if you don't see your self classification in there.

I appreciate that the sentiment you're expressing is a form of tolerance, which is great. However. being LGBTQ extends beyond "what people do in the bedroom." It's something as simple and mundane as holding hands with your SO while walking down the street, or as serious as hospital visitation rights for same-sex spouses, or, for trans people, stepping outside in regular clothes that match your gender without being harassed, attacked or worse. Or just being able to work at your job without getting fired, legally, because of your gender identity. (Also note that expressing that you yourself are tolerant of LGBTQ people does not solve the problems they face, any more than a white person saying they don't see color solves the problems non-white people face. There can still be a need for discussion.)

KSF, I wanted to comment on this.

I chose two extremes in reference to the BDSM community as an example, and I'm afraid I may not have been clear.

What two (or more!) people do behind closed doors is fine, whether it be two consenting adults, three, two men, two women, involving medical sharpies etc. It is when you look at outragous displays (like the FSF) that turn a into a celebration of offending people that you cross the line is what I'm talking about.

For example, a girl walks into Farm&Fleet wearing a dog collar. She's not offending anyone, not disrupting anything. That's fine. Same girl walks into same Farm & Fleet in a g-string and on all fours on a leash, that's crossing the line.

To use your example, there's a difference between holding hands in public (which should be a non-issue) and having sex in public parks. That standard should hold true for everyone. Bill and Ted should be arested and prosecuted if it's illegal, but at the same time Fred and Dapheny shouldn't be just accosted with an embarressed chuckle and 'run along kids.'


Tholomyes wrote:
But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'

Can't we all come to an agreement that there is probably someone out there who is prejudiced against something we are? Do we need to make "50 Shades of Prejudice" posts?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Tholomyes wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Again, if he'd read the research, he'd note one of the links pointed out something as simple as standard school desks making life difficult for left handed chidren, in the present.
Yeah, um, about that. I have friends who are teachers in three separate schools (2 High Schools, 1 Elementary school), and in classrooms nowadays there are plenty of left-handed desks, more than enough for the percentage of left-handed students. But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'

Hey, guess what!

DADT was repealed!

So by Tholomyes standard, we can stop worrying about fairness for GBLT! Life is a wonderful world. :-(

I happen to come from a rural area, and can tell you that just because you have your data points, doesn't mean that it's universal.

Lefties still face difficulties. Heck, every time I move, I have to reconfgure my desk because the movers' default configuration is for a right handed person.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

magnuskn wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'
Can't we all come to an agreement that there is probably someone out there who is prejudiced against something we are? Do we need to make "50 Shades of Prejudice" posts?

Amusingly, that's my entire point. It's like people getting twisted about bastards of Goalrion. If Paizo tried to print products that were inoffensive to everyone, they'd not print at all.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Lefties still face difficulties. Heck, every time I move, I have to reconfgure my desk because the movers' default configuration is for a right handed person.

Your desk?! How inconvenient :(

You really do have it as rough as us :(


Tirisfal wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
My point wasn't that the concerns of any segment of the GLBTQ (can anyone tell me what the Q is supposed to stand for, btw) don't have valid concerns, far from it.
Let me Google that for you.

On the subject of the Q in LBGTQ, a college acquaintance of mine (and politically active lesbian) posted that even she didn't know what some of the letters meant in LBGTQIA which she was starting to see other people use. Apparently I=intersex and A=ally.

Eventually, you have to worry that tendencies to explicitly recognize or validate everyone in an effort to be all-inclusive leads to dilution of your message or at lack of user-friendliness. Focusing on message and terminological simplifications aren't bad things.


magnuskn wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'
Can't we all come to an agreement that there is probably someone out there who is prejudiced against something we are? Do we need to make "50 Shades of Prejudice" posts?

I agree completely, but my point is that the discrimination faced by members of the LGBT community is not equal to discrimination faced by left-handed people, so we should stop acting like they are. I'm not saying that more shouldn't be done (and with regards to left-handedness, this largely comes down to the availability of left-handed products, since most products which work better for right-handed people have left-handed equivalents, just they are less common; And with the increase in prevalence of computers, writing is less of an issue than it once was, and most mice are ambidextrous nowadays), but the comparison is a fallacious one, which makes light of the problems facing LGBT people with regards to discrimination.


Matthew Morris wrote:
KSF wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Seriously. I think what people do in their bedrooms is their own business, the Folsome Street Fair (So do not google, not safe for work at all) is a bridge too far. I don't 'need' a left handed iconic to feel included, nor do we need to have a 'quota' of lefties. If someone feels more validated that Kyra's gay/bi/whatever, more power to them, but don't get your knickers in a bunch if you don't see your self classification in there.

I appreciate that the sentiment you're expressing is a form of tolerance, which is great. However. being LGBTQ extends beyond "what people do in the bedroom." It's something as simple and mundane as holding hands with your SO while walking down the street, or as serious as hospital visitation rights for same-sex spouses, or, for trans people, stepping outside in regular clothes that match your gender without being harassed, attacked or worse. Or just being able to work at your job without getting fired, legally, because of your gender identity. (Also note that expressing that you yourself are tolerant of LGBTQ people does not solve the problems they face, any more than a white person saying they don't see color solves the problems non-white people face. There can still be a need for discussion.)

KSF, I wanted to comment on this.

I chose two extremes in reference to the BDSM community as an example, and I'm afraid I may not have been clear.

What two (or more!) people do behind closed doors is fine, whether it be two consenting adults, three, two men, two women, involving medical sharpies etc. It is when you look at outragous displays (like the FSF) that turn a into a celebration of offending people that you cross the line is what I'm talking about.

For example, a girl walks into Farm&Fleet wearing a dog collar. She's not offending anyone, not disrupting anything. That's fine. Same girl walks into same Farm & Fleet in a g-string and on all fours on a leash, that's crossing the line.

To use your example, there's a difference between holding hands in public (which should be a non-issue) and having sex in public parks. That standard should hold true for everyone. Bill and Ted should be arested and prosecuted if it's illegal, but at the same time Fred and Dapheny shouldn't be just accosted with an embarressed chuckle and 'run along kids.'

And Paizo's approach has been far closer to "holding hands in public" than to "sex in public parks". Which is why I always get confused when people bring up "behind closed doors" in discussions about LTQBG issues in gaming.

Grand Lodge

Cerberus Seven wrote:
For example, what the HECK is that thing next to Thuvia? I keep saying demon, but I have no idea whether and why that would be true. Put the alchemist who discovered the Sun Orchid elixir on there holding up a vial of the same.

My guess is that the monster for Thuvia is supposed to be Ahriman. The evil demigod lord of the Div and general big bad guy for that country. Or maybe it is one of his more powerful Div followers, since he went back to Abbadon.

http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Ahriman

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Tirisfal wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Lefties still face difficulties. Heck, every time I move, I have to reconfgure my desk because the movers' default configuration is for a right handed person.

Your desk?! How inconvenient :(

You really do have it as rough as us :(

And I posted links about leftie oppression in history. How cute.

I suppose I could just try to fit in and conform to a dextronormative worldview. How enlightened and tolerant of you.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Morris wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Again, if he'd read the research, he'd note one of the links pointed out something as simple as standard school desks making life difficult for left handed chidren, in the present.
Yeah, um, about that. I have friends who are teachers in three separate schools (2 High Schools, 1 Elementary school), and in classrooms nowadays there are plenty of left-handed desks, more than enough for the percentage of left-handed students. But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'

Hey, guess what!

DADT was repealed!

So by Tholomyes standard, we can stop worrying about fairness for GBLT! Life is a wonderful world. :-(

I happen to come from a rural area, and can tell you that just because you have your data points, doesn't mean that it's universal.

Lefties still face difficulties. Heck, every time I move, I have to reconfgure my desk because the movers' default configuration is for a right handed person.

Ok, you still want to argue this point? I have a friend who's both left-handed and transgender; let me call her up and ask which has been harder for her.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Morris wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Again, if he'd read the research, he'd note one of the links pointed out something as simple as standard school desks making life difficult for left handed chidren, in the present.
Yeah, um, about that. I have friends who are teachers in three separate schools (2 High Schools, 1 Elementary school), and in classrooms nowadays there are plenty of left-handed desks, more than enough for the percentage of left-handed students. But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'

Hey, guess what!

DADT was repealed!

So by Tholomyes standard, we can stop worrying about fairness for GBLT! Life is a wonderful world. :-(

I happen to come from a rural area, and can tell you that just because you have your data points, doesn't mean that it's universal.

Lefties still face difficulties. Heck, every time I move, I have to reconfgure my desk because the movers' default configuration is for a right handed person.

Lefties, like myself, don't face any difficulties. At best your talking about mild inconveniences. Why are you trying to make a non-issue into some kind of weird discrimination that doesn't exist?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tholomyes wrote:
Ok, you still want to argue this point? I have a friend who's both left-handed and transgender; let me call her up and ask which has been harder for her.

Chonically missing the point again.

The point, which has been so clearly stated, is "Yes, Matt's being sarcastic, he's trying to get a point across about how silly it is that people are berating this company for their supposed bigotry."

So now you're reduced to "I should get more attention, because my tale of woe is so much greater than yours! Pay attention to me because my life is so much worse than yours!"

Me, I'm more of a 'discrimination sucks. Paizo's decided to put content in their books to support their POV, good for them.' IT's a good thing they're addressing issues, rather than simply going "No, you shut up, you don't know how hard it is."

Now that I've had my point proved, I'll bow out of the thread and let you discuss who has more oppression., G, L, B, or T. After all, you're already saying that the ones with the greatest grievance get the bullhorn with your post here.

Thank you again Tholomyes for proving my point wonderfully!

Senior Editor/Fiction Editor

5 people marked this as a favorite.

To jump back to something someone said earlier about the girdle of opposite gender: It was indeed unfortunate that we forgot to move that out of cursed items when we moved from 3.5 to Pathfinder. I presume that the thinking was "well, it's still cursed because you often put it on without knowing what it does and then have a hard time removing the effects," but the term "cursed" is loaded and problematic.

On the plus side, my understanding is that of the several times the girdle's shown up in adventures or setting books, its been to help folks transition. So regardless of where it's listed in the book, there are certainly folks in-world who don't think it's cursed!


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Matthew Morris wrote:
KSF, I wanted to comment on this...

Thank you for the clarification. However, no one in the thread seems to be talking about that sort of thing. No one is asking for that. So when you go for such an extreme counterexample, I'm not sure it actually contributes much to the discussion, or will serve to convince those who disagree with you (assuming that's an actual goal). It seems inflammatory, in a way.

Question: How successful has your tactic been in the past, not in terms of receiving the support of those who agree with your position, but in terms of convincing those who disagree with you? (If I understand you correctly, your position is, "Everything's fine so be quiet," while the other position is either "Can you reassure me about the company and their products," or, "You're doing good, but I think there's room for improvement" on the other.)

Maybe it's time to come up with a more effective counterargument? Maybe something that's not so slippery slope?

I actually think, in this thread, there are a lot of base-level agreements, and similar values being held. And personally, as someone who fits into one of the groups you seemed to refer to as "special snowflakes" in an earlier post, I'm happy with the level of engagement I've seen from Paizo in this thread and elsewhere. I'm generally satisfied. They do listen. And since they do, there's nothing wrong with engaging in conversation on these matters when one sees an area where Paizo might be able to improve on the very good job they already do.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
We wouldn't even be having this conversation if Paizo hadn't gotten a bit lazy and put vikings in the north, quasi-Egyptians into the corner where Egypt would be on Garund and Quadira into the perfect position that it would appear to be the "middle eastern" nation. The rest of the nations of Avistan and Garund are not even remotely proper analogs to their real-world companions.
What you call lazy I call "honoring real-world geography." AKA: Part of what makes "vikings" feel like vikings is that they're in the north.

Well, I might argue that what makes Vikings feel like Vikings is that they are associated with fjords, mountains, tundra and the like. Meaning they could just as easily be found on the southern polar climes as the northern ones, but probably not so much on the equator.

You could argue they drank red wine and lived with elephants, but that don’t make it true.

If you’re gonna slap a Dev on the fingers you might wanna check out the facts first.

James Jacobs 1 - Adamantine Dragon 0

Associated with tundra? LOL.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tholomyes wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
But then again, I don't need my identity issues validated by game content changes. I'm comfortable enough in my own skin as it is, it's not required for everyone else to accommodate my identity issues.
The difference is, you're (presumably) not in the same situation as many LGBT people are in, where society treats them as abnormal or unnatural, simply for being who they are; It's great that you are comfortable in your own skin, but that's not the issue. The issue is the fact that there are many groups, such as the LGBT community, for whom that is an uphill battle, in the context of modern society.

I know very few people who don't feel that society discriminates unfairly against them for some reason. Very few. Maybe none actually. Everyone has some self-identity issue that they feel is unappreciated by the mainstream. I also have hired and worked with individuals from just about every background you can imagine, including LGBT individuals, and have never had an issue with anyone's identity issues on any of my teams. I really just don't care about what people do in their personal relationships so long as everyone involved is mature, responsible and nobody gets hurt.

As far as modern society and identity issues are concerned, I'm an old dude who grew up partly in the South in the sixties.

People who complain about identity issues today would do well to take a trip down memory lane and see how things were fifty years ago. Maybe they'd appreciate the progress made a little more than they seem to.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Tholomyes wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
But then again, I don't need my identity issues validated by game content changes. I'm comfortable enough in my own skin as it is, it's not required for everyone else to accommodate my identity issues.
The difference is, you're (presumably) not in the same situation as many LGBT people are in, where society treats them as abnormal or unnatural, simply for being who they are; It's great that you are comfortable in your own skin, but that's not the issue. The issue is the fact that there are many groups, such as the LGBT community, for whom that is an uphill battle, in the context of modern society.

I know very few people who don't feel that society discriminates unfairly against them for some reason. Very few. Maybe none actually. Everyone has some self-identity issue that they feel is unappreciated by the mainstream. I also have hired and worked with individuals from just about every background you can imagine, including LGBT individuals, and have never had an issue with anyone's identity issues on any of my teams. I really just don't care about what people do in their personal relationships so long as everyone involved is mature, responsible and nobody gets hurt.

As far as modern society and identity issues are concerned, I'm an old dude who grew up partly in the South in the sixties.

People who complain about identity issues today would do well to take a trip down memory lane and see how things were fifty years ago. Maybe they'd appreciate the progress made a little more than they seem to.

Yeah, you kids today don't know how good you have it. Be thankful you're not being beaten as often as you used to be and shut up about wanting more.

Ignore that it was people not being satisfied with the status quo that's led to the progress made.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

7 people marked this as a favorite.

A few quick notes.

Yes, there is a transexual iconic. No, we didn't mention that in their background, because just like mentioning Merisiel is bisexual or Kyra is gay, that element is not all that relevant to their background as an iconic character. When the time is right, IF the time is ever right, we'll delve more into that storyline, but as it stands right now the ONLY place where we're telling iconic stories is in the Comic book line and that's not going to cover all the iconics.

As for keeping track of what hand anyone is, including an iconic... not only does tracking that kind of detail go too deep into the "things you have to keep track of in game during play," but since the game doesn't really bother with hit locations and specific damage to limbs, and since switching weapons between hands is a free action, I really can't see a reason why knowing this would really ever come up. I'm sure there are reasons... but they're not nearly common enough to justify the extra complication.

There's a real-world reason for not tracking what hand is the dominant one for our characters too—art. Often a piece of art gets flipped/mirrored so that the shape of the piece of art fits the page better. We try to not do this often, because in the case of asymetrical characters, it can cause problems. For example, up until the last minute, Ameiko Kaijitsu had a snake tattoo on her right shoulder—that's the shoulder it was always on before we illustrated her on the cover to the first Jade Regent, and that's the shoulder Wayne painted it on. But when it came time to lay out the cover, her position was simply not right for the cover's aesthetic look, and so the art department flipped her around, mirroring the art. Which makes the layout of the cover work MUCH better, but unfortunately switched her snake tattoo from her right shoulder to her left one. I had to scramble at the last minute to comb through the entire volume to make sure that I changed all references in the text to match the new art, and for the rest of the AP we had to make sure that when we sent her as reference for new art, we sent the flipped art and not the original art so that other illustrations of her would have her snake tat on the right side.

If we tracked dominant hands for characters, we'd appear to get it wrong a LOT, is what I'm saying, since art gets flipped like this an awful lot, and it's pretty much out of editorial's hands when it happens. And so not nailing that down helps to obfuscate things when now and then Kyra's pictured with her scimitar in the other hand, etc.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
My point wasn't that the concerns of any segment of the GLBTQ (can anyone tell me what the Q is supposed to stand for, btw) don't have valid concerns, far from it. However, I don't think they're being improperly addressed in this thread. When you have a very progressive and customer-focused company like Paizo that goes out of their way to be inclusive to people and ideas native to your interests and group, you don't start complaining when every little thing they do doesn't please you. You also certainly need to name specific,realistic examples of your grievances backed up with facts rather than just make general accusations.

The Q stands for either Queer (as in, you don't quite fit into any of the other four categories) or Questioning (as in, you're still trying to figure yourself out, but you know you fit in there somewhere).

I agree that Paizo is a very progressive and customer-focused company. They're great.

The thread actually started with a specific example (the ISWG poster) and a request for more information. It could have been phrased better, I agree, but that was the start of the thread. I think the only other person here really criticizing Paizo was Annabel, and when prompted, she did offer specific examples, which then received reasonable replies from Paizo. (And I agree that she did eventually misread one of Paizo's responses, after which she seems to have left the thread. But that's a separate thing.)

Personally, as someone who likes Paizo and their products quite a lot, and does not think they're racist (or heterosexist, or cissexist), I think the OP had a legitimate concern, and that there may have been a better way to put together that poster. I could see where it would give the impression it received, even as I understand the logic behind its production offered by Sean. A few people on the thread agreed with the OP, and did so without attacking Paizo. I also think the things both the OP and Annabel brought up are valid points of discussion, and bringing them up or pointing out missteps in any of these areas is not the same thing as demanding Paizo cater to their whims.

Cerberus Seven wrote:
Hence, my agreement with Matthew Morris and Adamantine Dragon on this matter. Yes, Matt's being sarcastic, he's trying to get a point across about how silly it is that people are berating this company for their supposed bigotry Maybe Paizo has made a couple small missteps here and there (SKR's explanation on why the girdle is a cursed item should stand from a gameplay perspective, though), it happens when you're trying to run a company that puts out that much material on a decent schedule every year. They should be extended the benefit of the doubt just like any other person or group that hasn't proven themselves bereft of the capability to responsibly handle the concerns of their customer base. Disappointingly enough, some people in this thread refuse to do that...

Not everyone in the thread is doing that. I think most people aren't doing that. I agree Paizo should most definitely be extended the benefit of the doubt. However, the OP wasn't that familiar with their products, hence her question. The initial response, from some of the people on the board, was to jump all over her. Both sides could have done better there.

Cerberus Seven wrote:
I love discussing Golarion, but I never thought anyone who actually uses Paizo's products would need to defend them against their own fans and consumer base. It's disappointing, unnecessary, and I hope people will give them the benefit of the doubt for any small mistakes from now on.

You're right, they shouldn't be jumped over for small missteps. Totally agree. But pointing out those missteps is not, in and of itself an attack on Paizo.


thejeff wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


People who complain about identity issues today would do well to take a trip down memory lane and see how things were fifty years ago. Maybe they'd appreciate the progress made a little more than they seem to.

Yeah, you kids today don't know how good you have it. Be thankful you're not being beaten as often as you used to be and shut up about wanting more.

Ignore that it was people not being satisfied with the status quo that's led to the progress made.

Nice way to illustrate my point thejeff.

In fact I do think it is good that "you're" not being beaten up as often as "you" used to be. Progress is happening. Extremely rapidly from any normal historic perspective.

I have no doubt that's not enough for you. But it remains progress regardless.

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Tholomyes wrote:
Yeah, um, about that. I have friends who are teachers in three separate schools (2 High Schools, 1 Elementary school), and in classrooms nowadays there are plenty of left-handed desks, more than enough for the percentage of left-handed students. But let's just ignore that because you want to feel like your discrimination is equal to other peoples'

I can recall ONE left-handed desk in my elementary school (1976-1980), and perhaps TWO in my junior high and high schools (1980-1988). I don't have population numbers for elementary and junior high, but my high school had about 1,500 students. Two left-handed desks for ~150 left-handed students.

This was in San Diego. Not a small town.

I'm also lucky to be just young enough that I didn't have to deal with the whole "force lefties to be right-handed" disciplining.

(Not that I think any left-handedness problems are anywhere near as difficult as LGBTQ people have to deal with, but that doesn't mean you should summarily dismiss them.)

(And not that I think this discussion should be "my specific group has/had it worse than your group." We're all a bunch of socially-ostracized gamer nerds who couldn't get a date in high school. Well, except for Sutter, who everyone finds irresistible. Damn him.)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
thejeff wrote:
Ignore that it was people not being satisfied with the status quo that's led to the progress made.

There is "fighting for a more progressive world" and there is "Yelling at the already most progressive company in the field "YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"". You guys are coming off as people who will never be satisfied with even the best item on the menu.

Also, I hate thought police.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


People who complain about identity issues today would do well to take a trip down memory lane and see how things were fifty years ago. Maybe they'd appreciate the progress made a little more than they seem to.

Yeah, you kids today don't know how good you have it. Be thankful you're not being beaten as often as you used to be and shut up about wanting more.

Ignore that it was people not being satisfied with the status quo that's led to the progress made.

Nice way to illustrate my point thejeff.

In fact I do think it is good that "you're" not being beaten up as often as "you" used to be. Progress is happening. Extremely rapidly from any normal historic perspective.

I have no doubt that's not enough for you. But it remains progress regardless.

Progress is happening, but people are also still being beat up, in some cases, still in terrible or severe ways. Can't one acknowledge both of these things? It's not either/or.


KSF wrote:


Progress is happening, but people are also still being beat up, in some cases, still in terrible or severe ways. Can't one acknowledge both of these things? It's not either/or.

I believe I have acknowledged both of these things. That wasn't enough.


KSF wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Adamantine Dragon wrote:


People who complain about identity issues today would do well to take a trip down memory lane and see how things were fifty years ago. Maybe they'd appreciate the progress made a little more than they seem to.

Yeah, you kids today don't know how good you have it. Be thankful you're not being beaten as often as you used to be and shut up about wanting more.

Ignore that it was people not being satisfied with the status quo that's led to the progress made.

Nice way to illustrate my point thejeff.

In fact I do think it is good that "you're" not being beaten up as often as "you" used to be. Progress is happening. Extremely rapidly from any normal historic perspective.

I have no doubt that's not enough for you. But it remains progress regardless.

Progress is happening, but people are also still being beat up, in some cases, still in terrible or severe ways. Can't one acknowledge both of these things? It's not either/or.

Exactly. It's important to release that progress is being made, otherwise it gets to depressing to continue. It's also important to give credit where it's due.

But it's crucial not to let "It's better than it used to be" turn into "So why are you complaining. Stop rocking the boat. Can't you ever be satisfied?"


thejeff wrote:

Exactly. It's important to release that progress is being made, otherwise it gets to depressing to continue. It's also important to give credit where it's due.

But it's crucial not to let "It's better than it used to be" turn into "So why are you complaining. Stop rocking the boat. Can't you ever be satisfied?"

thejeff, this is my point exactly. And Paizo is, if anything, a shining example of WHERE the progress is being made.

The problem with beating up on Paizo, or other companies that have led the way for acceptance of identity issues, is that it comes across as ungrateful. Plus it can be counter productive since a reasonable human reaction to getting beat up is to say "oh yeah? Well... in that case..."

I think every Paizo contributor on this thread has been exemplary in how they are dealing with this issue. My reaction to this whole thing from a Paizo response perspective is that it would be hard to imagine how they could be more supportive and accommodating.

And yet there are still some on the thread rubbing their noses in past mistakes.

Just doesn't make sense to me.


magnuskn wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Ignore that it was people not being satisfied with the status quo that's led to the progress made.

There is "fighting for a more progressive world" and there is "Yelling at the already most progressive company in the field "YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"". You guys are coming off as people who will never be satisfied with even the best item on the menu.

Also, I hate thought police.

I don't believe anything I've said in this thread would qualify as "Yelling at the already most progressive company in the field "YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH!""

I agreed with the OP who pointed out a misleading ad that it could be taken as racist. And tried to counter claims that she must be racist to see racism in the poster.
I stated early on that I thought it was not intentional on Paizo's part and that they do a very good job on such issues. I've repeated that more than once.

If that hasn't come across to the staff, I'll repeat it: You are great. You do a great job handling these potentially divisive issues and it's one of the reasons I've gotten hooked on PF. You also engage with the issues on this site, which is much appreciated.

Pointing out where I think they've screwed up is intended as constructive criticism, not as an attack. They're human, full of the biases all of us have been exposed to since birth. Pointing out ways that something you've done can be taken as racist or sexist can help avoid similar problems in the future. Or not, if they think we're being too sensitive on this one.


thejeff wrote:

Exactly. It's important to release that progress is being made, otherwise it gets to depressing to continue. It's also important to give credit where it's due.

But it's crucial not to let "It's better than it used to be" turn into "So why are you complaining. Stop rocking the boat. Can't you ever be satisfied?"

Agreed.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Exactly. It's important to release that progress is being made, otherwise it gets to depressing to continue. It's also important to give credit where it's due.

But it's crucial not to let "It's better than it used to be" turn into "So why are you complaining. Stop rocking the boat. Can't you ever be satisfied?"

thejeff, this is my point exactly. And Paizo is, if anything, a shining example of WHERE the progress is being made.

The problem with beating up on Paizo, or other companies that have led the way for acceptance of identity issues, is that it comes across as ungrateful. Plus it can be counter productive since a reasonable human reaction to getting beat up is to say "oh yeah? Well... in that case..."

I think every Paizo contributor on this thread has been exemplary in how they are dealing with this issue. My reaction to this whole thing from a Paizo response perspective is that it would be hard to imagine how they could be more supportive and accommodating.

And yet there are still some on the thread rubbing their noses in past mistakes.

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Well, at this point I'm not intending to "rub Paizo's nose in past mistakes" as to respond to all the people saying "No there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Anyone who thinks there is just wants to see racism everywhere."


thejeff wrote:
Well, at this point I'm not intending to "rub Paizo's nose in past mistakes" as to respond to all the people saying "No there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Anyone who thinks there is just wants to see racism everywhere."

This is a reasonably good example of how each of us applies filters in our communications. We have outgoing and incoming filters. What someone intends to say frequently comes out slightly differently than they intended, and what someone reads is frequently interpreted slightly differently than it is actually worded.

And that's how flame wars begin.

Again I have to say that I have been very impressed with the Paizo staff in this thread. This is a really difficult, emotionally charged issue and every single one of them has treated it respectfully, carefully and properly.

Which is just more indication to me that Paizo is actually a pretty enlightened group of people.

I'm not in the habit of sucking up to Paizo staff. In fact I can be quite critical. But you guys have earned your pay for the week on this thread.

Kudos. Seriously. Well done.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Again I have to say that I have been very impressed with the Paizo staff in this thread. This is a really difficult, emotionally charged issue and every single one of them has treated it respectfully, carefully and properly.

Which is just more indication to me that Paizo is actually a pretty enlightened group of people.

I'm not in the habit of sucking up to Paizo staff. In fact I can be quite critical. But you guys have earned your pay for the week on this thread.

Kudos. Seriously. Well done.

Agree with that as well. Additional kudos to the Paizo folk.

301 to 350 of 520 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Lost Omens Campaign Setting / General Discussion / Is The Pathfinder Setting Ethically Problematic? All Messageboards