[PFS] Trying out the new early-entry MT

[Jiggy]

So I need to put together a PC out of a GM credit baby slot (2nd level) for a game this Thursday, and having never played a casting-focused character before I thought I'd give this new early-entry Mystic Theurge thing a go.

(If you don't know what I'm talking about, there's a new FAQ that explicitly allows spell-like abilities to qualify for the spellcasting prereqs of prestige classes.)

So I'm going for the spontaneous route of Sorcerer/Oracle. Stats are as follows, using the musetouched aasimar:

STR 07
DEX 14 (12+2)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 20 (18+2)

My race gives me glitterdust 1/day, satisfying the arcane half of the MT's prereqs.

Level 1 is oracle, taking the Blackened curse (from Blood of Angels) and the Wood mystery (the Bend the Grain revelation gets me a 2nd-level divine SLA, leaving only the skill rank prereqs between me and MT1).

Level 2 is sorcerer, taking the Primal bloodline (the Wildblooded version of Elemental), choosing fire to get +1 damage per die rolled. Yeah, I know, worst element blah blah blah. I'm getting burning hands from my curse without having to burn (Ha!) a Spells Known slot, so I thought I'd capitalize on it. All the other arcanas were either weird, bad, or very specialized for niches I don't want to focus on.

The plan is for 3rd level to be Sorc2, then starting in on MT at 4th. I'm currently thinking Magical Knack on oracle so it doesn't lag so far behind, but I could be persuaded otherwise.

So! For my 1st-level spells known, I've got cure light wounds and burning hands as oracle spells for free, then two spells of my choice for each list. Unfortunately, I'm feeling rather indecisive.

Command seems nice and versatile for oracle.

Mage armor seems pretty standard on sorcerer.

Protection from evil could come from either list.

I've also considered bless and silent image.

I want to avoid "low levels only" spells (like cause fear or color spray) as I don't think I get to swap out old spells like a straight sorcerer or oracle would.

I know grease is good, but I'm just soooo tired of seeing that spell...

Anyway, yeah, any help with my indecision would be great. Thanks!

[Cheapy]

Are you trying to playtest it or have fun with it?

[Jiggy]

Some of both? But more toward the fun. :)

[ShadowcatX]

Anything at first level with a save will lag behind, buffs meanwhile (especially party wide buffs with a good duration) never go out of style. Ditto illusions.

Would you consider dual curse? If so you might consider oracle 2 / sorcerer 1, ill omen is a particularly good first level spell and misfortune is an amazing ability that will buff your allies and help keep your lower level spells relevant. (Using extra revelation to get your spell like, obviously.) Oracle 2 also gives you a spell known more than sorcerer 2, since you get your revelation spells at 2 and bloodline spells at 3.

[CWheezy]

Instead of dex, I would just put more points into con.

Don't get mage armor on your list.

Many of the hour/level buffs are bad on you, because they last for so long that a wan would suffice. I wish I had done this on my summoner but I did not. Pick what you want to do as well, if you want to control, pick controlling spells, debuff, pick debuffing, etc. Good spells are ill omen, snowball, summon monster, and others

IMO arcane bloodline is the best, also he has to have the wood mystery so his revelations suck, ha. I would just pick legalistic as your curse, since it doesn't have many drawbacks.

[Akerlof]

Mage Armor and Bless are good wand spells. Shield, on the other hand, might be worth picking up since by second or third level it will be a viable pre-combat buff. (I guess you could say the same thing about Bless, I'm just used to having it on a wand.)

Command is another of those "low level only" spells since the save DC doesn't improve much. (Though Murderous Command looks like tons of fun!)

How about Enlarge Person/Reduce Person? And I second Summon Monster. How is Ray of Enfeeblement for an offensive-ish spell? Maybe Feather Fall? Expeditions Retreat is a good one to have available, though I'm not sure if that's better as a panic button on a scroll.

Cleric-wise: Entropic Shield always looked interesting. Sanctuary is a good one but probably not as good as Protection from Evil, Remove Fear is always good to have.

[Angry Wiggles]

ShadowcatX wrote:

Anything at first level with a save will lag behind, buffs meanwhile (especially party wide buffs with a good duration) never go out of style. Ditto illusions.

I'll second this. A gnomish evangelist cleric/empyreal sorcerer with the effortless trickery and spell song feats could maintain three spells at once, and cast both cleric buffs and sorcerer illusions off of wisdom alone.

If you've got your heart set on oracle/sorcerer I've always been fond of Magic Missile for shutting down opposing spellcasters. Interrogation is fun for flavor and Obscuring Mist never goes out of style, although you could always do a Silent Image of the mist for a similar benefit that your allies can still see through.

I'll second the suggestion of Bless, it's useful more or less forever when you've got time to prepare for a battle, and Sanctuary is great if you want to be a support/non-violent caster. Might also consider Moment of Greatness if you're going to have Bless or some other Morale bonuses available

I posted a cleric/sorcerer/mystic theurge a bit ago in another thread that I'm going to spoiler here, just in case it helps with ideas.

Aasimar theurge of Asmodeus:

Race: Aasimar with the Incorruptible alternate racial trait, to gain a level 2 divine SLA.

Magical Knack trait for your preferred casting class to get back 2 caster levels.

Strength 8, Dexterity 10, Constitution 14, Intellect 12, Wisdom 18, Charisma 16 after racial adjustments

Level 1: Cleric with the Evangelist Archetype. Trickery domain for a level 2 arcane SLA. 1st level feat for Lingering Performance.

Level 2: Sorcerer with Empyreal bloodline for wisdom as casting stat

Level 3: Monk for wisdom to touch AC. Sohei archetype to always act in a surprise round. Bonus feat to snapping turtle style for additional AC. Level feat to Spellsong.

Level 4-12: Mystic Theurge with whatever metamagic feats tickle your fancy.

The goal here is to get as much out of wisdom as possible to make upgrading your casting with gear and spells as quick and cheap as possible. Intellect is boosted to 12 to get some much needed skill points and Charisma is used to get additional uses of Performance, which, combined with Lingering Performance and Spellsong, allow you to to maintain bardic performances during combat, concentrate on spells as a move action, and disguise spellcasting as a performance to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity or triggering readied actions against spellcasting. With both the full sorcerer and cleric spell lists available to you, you have a massive repertoire of healing and buffing spells, and given your abilities to avoid provoking attacks, always act in the surprise round, and occasionally not die due to buffed AC, you'll be very reliable in setting up these buffs for combat. Unfortunately, you'll never get channel energy, and you miss out on the familiar from the Arcane Bloodline.

[Bigdaddyjug]

I highly recommend going Empyreal sorcerer/cleric for a couple of reasons.

First, you don't have to worry about what spells you know on the divine side. You know them all. It's just a matter of which ones you prepare that day. Yes, you'll get one less spell per day of each level from 1st through 4th, but the access to every spell on the cleric list is very tempting.

Second, the wood mystery revelation you're forced to take is terrible. With cleric, you're forced into the Fate inquisition, but you still get to select any other domain you want, which will include the first level domain power. Fire adds burning hands to your list and gives you the Fire Bolt domain power, which equals the benefits you would have gained through the blackened curse, except now you can still use a ranged weapon without the -4 penalty.

Third, even though you won't ever take more cleric levels, you will still be able to channel for 1d6 at least a few times per day. No reason you can't get a 10 or 12 in Cha to allow yourself 3 or 4 channels. It may not seem like a huge deal, but it's more than nothing.

Fourth, you're not saddled with a curse that will never progress.

[Jiggy]

@Bigdaddyjug - You make some excellent points. However, they're not necessarily for me, and here's why:

First, I understand the advantage of cleric casting - my 8th-level cleric makes excellent use of that versatility. However, for this PC, I prefer the more relaxed play experience of having my spells known settled before I even sit down and just casting whatever I need from among them. So spontaneous casting suits my personal preferences here.

Second, you're right that the Wood mystery is terrible; however, my goal with this PC is to cast lots of spells, so the loss of a 1st-level revelation means essentially nothing to me as it wasn't something I wanted in the first place. Similarly, the -4 to weapon attacks is also meaningless, as I don't plan on using actual weapons, ever. If I need to just put out some ranged damage, it'll be a wand of magic missile, not a crossbow.

Third, again, for this PC it's all about the spells, not the class abilities.

Fourth, the curse *does* progress, albeit at half speed. So eventually, I'll be able to use my oracle slots on flaming sphere and scorching ray, which is not a bad thing (even if I also take one or both of those spells on the sorcerer side).

So really, the question is still what it was in the OP: what 1st-level spells should I take right now?

[Cheapy]

If you're trying to playtest it, then I'd recommend using more balanced stats, as that lets the things you are testing shine a bit brighter.

[Bigdaddyjug]

So you just want to know 2 oracle and 2 sorcerer spells to take at level 1?

Sorcerer: obscuring mist/mage armor

Mage armor is better cast than wanded because by level 5 or 6 you'll be able to cast it once and have it last the entire scenarion. Shield is a better wand spell to get since a minute will last most combats and even 12 minutes probably isn't lasting multiple combats.

Oracle: shield of faith/magic weapon

Shield of Faith is a great scaling buff to cast on the wo-handed weapon using BDF. Magic weapon is one of those "be prepared for anything" spells.

[ShadowcatX]

I'd probably go:

Sorcerer: Silent Image /

Oracle: Shield of Faith / Bless

The last sorcerer slot could be anything, protection from evil is always going to be useful, and mage armor is always a great spell (though as has been put forth, arguably better on a wand).

[Jiggy]

Thanks for the help everyone, though upon reflection I don't like all the concept details this requires (I'd prefer a human, for instance), so I might just go plain old sorcerer after all. :P

[Kudaku]

Have you considered doing a "halfie"?

Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 1 / MT would still qualify for MT via the spell-like ability from Wood mystery on the divine side, it doesn't have a race requirement, and you get a pretty decent spell progression.

Alternately Sorcerer 1 / divine class x / MT Y limits your race to those with spell-like abilities (Tiefling and Aasimar off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others), but you can take whatever curse, mystery, or divine class you want.

[Jiggy]

I suppose some options do open up if I relent on the "spontaneous only" thing. Hrm.

Arg! Decisions! And I only have today/tonight to decide!

[Kudaku]

If Oracle doesn't rock your boat but you want the spontaneous casting list you could replace it with another spontaneous divine class - how about inquisitor?

How do you find out if a spell-like ability is divine or arcane in nature? Tieflings get Darkness, which is on both divine and arcane spell lists. If a tiefling can decide if his SLA is arcane or divine in nature then that opens up a lot of possibilities.

[Jiggy]

Kudaku wrote:

How do you find out if a spell-like ability is divine or arcane in nature? Tieflings get Darkness, which is on both divine and arcane spell lists. If a tiefling can decide if his SLA is arcane or divine in nature then that opens up a lot of possibilities.

There's a FAQ on that; you use the same core-class hierarchy that you use to determine spell level: use the sorc/wiz version if it's on that list, then if it's not, default to the (if I'm remembering the order correctly) cleric list, then druid, and so forth.

[Kudaku]

Interesting! That does limit things a bit though...

Idyllkin would open druid via its SLA (Summon Nature's Ally), but then you're back to aasimar and we're straying a bit from the beaten path class-wise.

Sage Sorc / Druid / MT could work but druid loses a lot of its toys (Animal companion, wildshape etc), and we've completely given up on Charisma.

I think Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 1 / MT is your best bet if you really want spontaneous casting on both sides and you want some more freedom in the build. The race can be whatever you want, though you are limited to a mystery that gives you a 2nd level SLA.

Sorcerer 1 / Oracle 4 / MT works as well, but I get the feeling that you want the sorcerer spells to do the heavy lifting... Not the best option for that.

[Bigdaddyjug]

I still contend that a cleric with the Fate inquisition and the Trickery domain qualifies for MT without help from any other class. This would allow you to be any race you wanted.

Fate gets you augury as an SLA and Trickery gets you an SLA that "functions as mirror image". According to the FAQs, that's more than enough to get you in.

Then all you need is to select an arcane class and meet the skill requirements.

[Jiggy]

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I still contend that a cleric with the Fate inquisition and the Trickery domain qualifies for MT without help from any other class. This would allow you to be any race you wanted.

Fate gets you augury as an SLA and Trickery gets you an SLA that "functions as mirror image". According to the FAQs, that's more than enough to get you in.

Then all you need is to select an arcane class and meet the skill requirements.

This would be what I was thinking of when I said "I suppose some options do open up if I relent on the "spontaneous only" thing". ;)

[Bigdaddyjug]

Jiggy wrote:

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

I still contend that a cleric with the Fate inquisition and the Trickery domain qualifies for MT without help from any other class. This would allow you to be any race you wanted.

Fate gets you augury as an SLA and Trickery gets you an SLA that "functions as mirror image". According to the FAQs, that's more than enough to get you in.

Then all you need is to select an arcane class and meet the skill requirements.

This would be what I was thinking of when I said "I suppose some options do open up if I relent on the "spontaneous only" thing". ;)

I wasn't sure if you agreed that the Copycat ability (Trickery domain) qualified as an arcane spell-based SLA or not.

[Jiggy]

If you can't know how a spell-like ability works without reading the spell referenced in the SLA's text, then it's pretty hard to argue that it's not based on that spell. ;)

[Bigdaddyjug]

Jiggy wrote:

If you can't know how a spell-like ability works without reading the spell referenced in the SLA's text, then it's pretty hard to argue that it's not based on that spell. ;)

Very well said.

And quit winking at me. :p

[Peet]

BTW I'm pretty sure that Magical Knack is not legal for PFS.

Peet

[Bigdaddyjug]

Magical Knack was ruled legal for PFS a couple of months ago. Hip hip hooray!