Simple Surprise Round Question

[Jack McAllaster]

The reason I'm not posting this is Rules Questions is because I am familiar with the rules regarding surprise rounds, there's just an issue that has come up in a campaign of mine several times and I'd like some feedback.

I'm playing a character whose build is loosely based on Sherlock Holmes. Similar play style, different personality. That sort of thing. So, naturally, his perception is incredibly high. He spots ambushes before the party reaches the point of the ambush more often than not, and rashly tries to ambush the ambushers immediately. There's where my question lies.

If an ambush is set up and everyone on the opposing side is hidden and 'is aware' of my character, is it not safe to assume that they do not expect to be seen themselves? If they do not expect to be seen, then would they not also be surprised when they are spotted and immediately attacked? It's as if I have readied an action to attack if I see anybody set up for an ambush.

Both my DM and I are on the fence on the subject. The best argument against it we've come up with is the fact that they were prepared for combat to begin with. Then again, if I start combat and both my enemies and I are in the surprise round and one or more of my enemies beat my initiative, then they would be acting before I got the chance to take advantage of me spotting them BEFORE our party reached the point of their ambush. Which is obviously impossible.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Morgen]

You both would have surprise round actions, whomever having the higher initiative getting to act on it with the befits more easily. Your flat footed until you get to act so if you have a higher initiative your the one whose going to be really 'ambushing' them. If not then you just weren't fast enough even if you did see them. Just bad luck. After all for them to be ambushing you they have to know someone is coming otherwise it would be just a normal combat.

A better option would be to probably pull your group back a bit if you suspect an ambush and plan a proper counter attack.

[Yora]

My personal view on Suprise as a GM is that it is not so much about being aware of the opponents presence, but being aware of a potential threat.
If someone seems completely harmless and nobody suspects that there could be a violent fight within the next 10 seconds, he can suprise everyone else by doing so.

However, if the attackers are lying in ambush and already have their weapons out and counting down to strike, I would say it's a normal Initiative roll.
If they are just sentries keeping watch and still debating quietly if to attack or not, I might grant a Suprise Round if a player decides to just open fire without warning.

[Jack McAllaster]

I am familiar with what is RAW, but I see what you mean about battle readiness. My issue just lies in their ability to begin acting before me despite the fact that combat started because of my actions. Possible compromise: during such a surprise round, the person starting the combat is treated as if they had rolled a 20 for initiative. That way they act first almost definitely and the ambushers do get to act. And if an ambusher rolls a 20 and beats the original attacker, that represents their incredible reaction speed to getting spotted. Reasonable?

[Grizzly the Archer]

The point of the surprise round is to simulate the quick reactionary type initiatives and perception opposing groups might have. If they hide, and your perception is high enough to see them, then if there is a surprise round that's it. No issues. However, during that surprise round as you mentioned, it depends on who goes first. Thing to remember is though, that you re still acting in the surprise round, so don't feel like because you saw the, first that they go before you do to initiative that it's not possible. It is possible.

You can see a hiding creature. Both go on surprise round since both noticed eac other. Higher initiative is,on the enemy, so they get to react to their perception FASTER than you, which is represented by their higher initiative.

I'm not seeing an issue here. Combat might start from your actions, but that doesn't mean that you go first. You were the cause/ catalyst for the current encounter. That doesn't mean the ambushing enemies can't improvise, or react to such things. Thats why there is a surprise round.

[Lord Pendragon]

Since you are not yet in the area they are actively watching, I'd be inclined to give you a chance to surprise them. Literature is full of ambushers being themselves surprised when their prey turns out to be much stronger than they expected.

That said, your perception doesn't come into it. It'd be *their* perception versus your stealth. If you manage to outflank them and sneak up on them while they're watching the ambush point, you get the surprise round. If not, normal initiative.

[Jack McAllaster]

The issue is the ambushers not expecting to be seen and, thus, not expecting combat when it happens.

I mean, if you imagine that you're waiting in an alleyway to jump someone and before they ever make it to where you were going to jump them, they suddenly see you and shoot you with a handgun, you'd be surprised would you not?

It's really a clarification thing for me, I'm not trying to be difficult. I know that using Pathfinder to model reality is ridiculous, but the closer the better for me.

[trollbill]

If the ambushers are aware of your presence before you reach the actual ambush location then the only way to catch them off guard is for you to make them believe they haven't been spotted yet. That's called making a Bluff check. If the rest of the party is in on it, they will have to make bluff checks themselves. If they aren't in on it, you may have to bluff them, as well, depending on circumstances, and they would likely be surprised as well.

[TGMaxMaxer]

We would play this scenario you described as you, and only you, get to act, your action actually triggering the combat, then rolling iniative from there.

Say, if people were set up to ambush you, and you spotted them in advance, and decided to act, that actions completion triggers the iniative roll. Unless it was something that they had readied the ambush for.

If you spotted them, and fired off a readied weapon, you would make your attack only, not the rest of your group, then after that was completed iniative would be rolled for everyone, and normal surprise round would begin.

If you say, dropped a fireball on them, that would complete, then normal surprise round begins. (although in this case they have a chance to know what you're doing, unless precautions such as still/silent etc are taken)

[Kayerloth]

trollbill wrote:

If the ambushers are aware of your presence before you reach the actual ambush location then the only way to catch them off guard is for you to make them believe they haven't been spotted yet. That's called making a Bluff check. If the rest of the party is in on it, they will have to make bluff checks themselves. If they aren't in on it, you may have to bluff them, as well, depending on circumstances, and they would likely be surprised as well.

More or less this. The Ambushers should have a preset condition(s) upon which they attack. As in 'when the lead character gets to point x' or 'when the last character crosses the covered pit' or even 'when the leader (based on his own similar criteria) drops his hand while shouting "KILL THEM ALL". Spot them before the trigger condition occurs then the ball is in your court and you can attack, possible surprising everyone on both sides, do any of several (and likely opposed by the ambushers) skill checks or anything else you might like to try (most likely under observation by the ambushers).

Quote:

My issue just lies in their ability to begin acting before me despite the fact that combat started because of my actions

And last just because what you do triggers the combat in which you don't win the initiative in the surprise round doesn't mean your foe(s) are acting before you do something. If it helps think of the typical old western gunfight. Youngin' gunfighter A starts drawing his weapon: twitches his eyes, rolls his shoulder or whatever 'tell' the old 'retired' gunfighter B picks up on who then proceeds to pull his gun and shoot the youngin' before he can finish clearing the holster ... who went 'first'? and who won initiative getting off the first effective attack? For me that's more or less how I mentally view it when I lose initiative under those sort of circumstances. My foe picks up on some signal that I'm acting and beats me to the punch despite the fact that he doesn't 'do' anything prior to me starting the fight.