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Ok I have re-read the sorcerer and under there spell section they word it in such a way that it lead you to believe that you can learn cleric spells. Wait please let me explain.
"sorcerers gain spells normally from the Wizards/sorcerers spell list OR unusal spells through some study."
This is not a exact quote because i dont have the book in front of me but this statement tells me that they can gain ANY spell in the book. I asked some friends here and they agree so i am no the only person that is reading it this way.
So what are your thoughts on this? I know there are people on here smarter then I.
I think what that bit means is elaborated on, slightly, on page 220:
With permission from the GM, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they come across while adventuring.
That's not an endorsement of pulling spells off the cleric, druid, or whatever list. Rather, it's a way for sorcerers and bards to pick up reasonably appropriate spells that aren't on the sorcerer/wizard list - such as uniquely researched spells that some wizard came up with and the sorcerer wants to copy.
No sane GM would allow cleric spells. To me that just means that sorcerers too can research spells just like everybody else.
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ok Drachasor
So if I follow you correctly you would allow off class spells if they could/should make since to the bloodline of the sorcerer. (E.g. celestial bloodline) healing spells.
I know you guys are getting tired of me saying healing spells I just don’t want to change the example that’s all I am asking this for all spells across the board not just cleric. There are spells that some classes get that also would be cool to have as a sorcerer (Druid, Bard, Paladin, ect.) it’s just that I am trying to get a feel from the masses.
IMHO I feel that yes this is something a sorcerer should be able to do if he takes a “divine” like spell (cure light wounds) it’s a arcane version and is subject to ALL arcane limitations. With the sorcerers limited amount of spells known I don’t see it being a huge issue but I also see the up side of this as the rules read.
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Stalariou,
If a player in a game I was GMing came to me with a Sorcerer or wizard and asked for a cure spell I would say "Get Out! No cure spell for you!". Yes I would be a "spell Nazi".
Now if your player's sorcerer had invested in the Use Magic Device skill and had a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, and could make the DC 20 roll to activate the wand.....that's another matter.
If there was a blood line the player wanted to take, and it was outside of the core rule book, I would ask them to show it to me, so I could read it over and decide if it won't upset the game and be too powerful etc. If the bloodline isn't too powerful, ( Litmus test: you would be stupid for not taking this because it is clearly better then anything else) and if the player comes up with some interesting back story then I'll let the blood line in.
Sorcerer's can also do spell research. For that I would get out my Ultimate Magic book and go over the section about creating spells with the player and use the benchmarks provided in the book to decide how to go about making the spell.
Oh one thing to consider Devine spells come from some sort of God/ spirit/ ancestor/ nature/ powerful outer planar being (angel/devil/demon/ genie/ fae.....and for some campaigns, GMs allow belief /philosophy to be a source for spells. But these spells are "granted" through prayer/meditation. There are limitations and strings attached to this power.
With Arcane Magic, there are no such limitations. Even with a witch the understanding is that you have made your pact and received your power. With Arcane magic, the magical power is yours to do with as you please.
So Sorcerers do have access to spells on other spell lists ( the Druid the cleric) through their blood lines.
I would suggest if you would like playing an arcane caster with access to cure light wounds play a witch. If you want to try some healing, try the Hedge witch with the healing patron.
I hope this helps.
Elyas
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Ok so it seems that people feel like I am trying to get a sorcerer to gain cleric spells this is an understandable misconception. I have been using it as my example this whole time but I am trying to say that if a sorcerer were to “study” and gain understanding of say the human body and how it works then but the wording of the spells section he should be able to “create” a healing spell equivalent as to a cleric spell of the same level.
I keep using this because after reading it and having it dawn on me the meaning of the statement and description that was the first example to leap into my mind. I have also thought of druid spell which I know is another divine user. If I had stated that a sorcerer could learn entangle I don’t believe I would have so much push back in this subject(again this is my opinion) but if through study they can learn unusual spells would not learning an arcane way of making a divine spell count?
EDIT:
I am not trying to be arguementive i am trying to understand this and if i come off mad im not i am actually enjoying the conversation. ;P
"Or Unusual spells" part means spell that appear in supplements for wizards/sorcerers that aren't on the normal, spells that are specially produced like an acid version of fireball (with DM approval), etc. It doesn't mean (necessarily) that you can take cleric or other divine spells. In fact, a GM should in general not allow it. If you want access to several divine spells you should play a divine caster. If you want to heal you should learn Infernal Healing, and by that I mean you should buy lots of wands of it.
Edit: I can't recall where it was stated, but I believe somebody (maybe either JJ or SKR) once made a post about how arcane magic shouldn't really ever be allowed to get healing spells. The made a really good case for it, saying that it was just a fundamental difference in the types of magic, and that an arcane version of CLW would prbably take up a 6th level spell slot which would just not provide enough benefit for the cost. It made sense, and its good from a balance stand point, otherwise you make the cleric and other classes less necessary or popular because suddenly the wizard can do it all.
The "or unusual spells" clause should not be taken as a unlimited ability to steal spells from other classes, but rather a careful option to slightly expand beyond what is normally offered, like an acid version of Fireball.
As an additional warning, and especially for full caster classes, the majority of power of spell casters is in the spells they have. Allowing them access to non-standard spells increases their power even further in a game where spell casters already are far more powerful than non-casters or minimal (4th level spell) casters. The learning of spells not on a class' spell list should be very carefully considered before being allowed. As an example, the game I am currently a player in the GM allowed spells from One Thousand and One Spells. And it has literally ruined the game. The casters are so overpowered to a point where the non-caster might as well not even bother to show up because the 2 casters can handle it all on their own.
Ok so it seems that people feel like I am trying to get a sorcerer to gain cleric spells this is an understandable misconception. I have been using it as my example this whole time but I am trying to say that if a sorcerer were to “study” and gain understanding of say the human body and how it works then but the wording of the spells section he should be able to “create” a healing spell equivalent as to a cleric spell of the same level.
I keep using this because after reading it and having it dawn on me the meaning of the statement and description that was the first example to leap into my mind. I have also thought of druid spell which I know is another divine user. If I had stated that a sorcerer could learn entangle I don’t believe I would have so much push back in this subject(again this is my opinion) but if through study they can learn unusual spells would not learning an arcane way of making a divine spell count?
EDIT:
I am not trying to be arguementive i am trying to understand this and if i come off mad im not i am actually enjoying the conversation. ;P
This basically boils down to the "If you're trying to make something new, it shouldn't equal/outdo what an already established/base things does." Like, if you're creating a new stealth class, it shouldn't be better at sneak attacking than a Rogue.
If you're creating a "Mend Wounds" spell or something like that for arcane casters, sure it could make some thematic sense. But when you're making it, it probably shouldn't be as effective as the divine Cure spells. Six-sided dice instead of eight. Maybe it can't overcome magical statuses that prevent healing (whereas Cure spells can if you succeed on a CL check). Etc. That sort of stuff to distinguish it from the divine side of things. Even then, you might have to do some convincing to get your GM to allow it.
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Claxon thank you for your edit! and that last sentense i 100% back I dont feel that the sorcerer's should have unlimited access to the others spell list at all either. abd i would like to try and find the link your talking about.
*sigh* ok im going to have to change my example or not use one at all. I am really talking about the ability for the sorcerer to "create" spells he doesnt have access to under the wizard/sorcerer lists thats all. lol I am not trying to undermine the divine caster one lick just saying that i think you SHOULD be able to create a arcane version of a divine spell or any spell outside there wizard/sorcerer list(i include all books if they add new spells to the list they are not unusal). (trying not to single out any one spell.)
Works the same way I mentioned. You can research it if you like. Just talk about it with your GM. If it's something pretty iconic to another class (Healing for Clerics, Damage Spells for Wizards, Stealthiness for Rogues, Tracking for Rangers, etc.), what you're doing shouldn't be on par.
But, if you think your Sorcerer should have a version of Entangle (or possibly even Entangle itself), then it can probably work. You'd have to justify it thematically, I think (for me, anyway). Random Sorcerer shouldn't be able to learn Entangle (just go with Web or whatever). But if your character is woodsy, has some ranks in survival/knowledge (nature), a background to support it more than "because I want to be able to cast it!", etc., as a GM I would say it could make sense for your character to develop a spell that works that idea in.
But that last bit is a purely personal thing, which is why I said you'd need to discuss it with your GM.
Ok so it seems that people feel like I am trying to get a sorcerer to gain cleric spells this is an understandable misconception. I have been using it as my example this whole time but I am trying to say that if a sorcerer were to “study” and gain understanding of say the human body and how it works then but the wording of the spells section he should be able to “create” a healing spell equivalent as to a cleric spell of the same level.
I keep using this because after reading it and having it dawn on me the meaning of the statement and description that was the first example to leap into my mind. I have also thought of druid spell which I know is another divine user. If I had stated that a sorcerer could learn entangle I don’t believe I would have so much push back in this subject(again this is my opinion) but if through study they can learn unusual spells would not learning an arcane way of making a divine spell count?
EDIT:
I am not trying to be arguementive i am trying to understand this and if i come off mad im not i am actually enjoying the conversation. ;P
It is basically there to say the GM can allow such spells if he wants to. It not there for the player to choose any spell he wants. :)
As an example if I have a sylvan bloodlined sorcerer a GM might allow me to take a druid spell that I can't have by the rules or he may allow me to research a spell or make an arcane nature based spell of my own design.
So, I found the post (the one with the really long quoted section) I was talking about but it wasn't JJ or SKR, but does provide a pretty insightful and reasonable evaluation of why arcane casters shouldn't be given healing spells. It could reasonable be extended to many other divine spells too, but everything is really at the behest of your GM.
Further it doesn't cover what you were really after which is the general meaning of the phrase, but more specifically why wizards and sorcerers shouldn't be given healing spells.
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I would allow a sorcerer to research and invent a spell to emulate CLW, given the right circumstances. The right circumstances, however, would be onerous. First, the sorcerer must have an appropriate bloodline (probably celestial or empyreal). He would need to ave ranks in Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (planes) and Spellcraft. He would have to have previously used a wand or scroll of CLW. Finally, the old AD&D rule was that it took one week and 1000 gp per level of the new spell to do the research. This spell would be second level for a sorcerer, I think.
Could he do it? Yes (in my home game).
Would he want to? Probably not.
Can we make Bards into Divine Casters (again?) I didn't play at before 3.0, but I've gleaned from comments that prior to that bards used a druids spellist and where divine casters, is that true? Just seems like it makes more sense to me especially with as much support as bards do, they feel much more like a divine class that is similar to the Druids "I get my power from nature", the Bards gets his power from something frilly like that too. As far as witches and healing...well that does confuse the crap out of me.