Humans and the feat: Fast Learner

[poundpuppy30]

Doesn't a human get Skilled--they gain 1 skill rank per level they gain and they also get favorite class to get the +1 hp or skill per level in that class, so what is the purpose of the feat: Fast Learner because as long as a human stays one class he gets favorite and skilled each time they level or does getting this feat mean you can get +1hp, +1skill, and also +1skill as long as you stay with just one class?

[Leisner]

Normally, when you get a new level in a favourite class, you get either +1 skill rank or +1 Hp. With this you get both, which is downright awesome.

On top of that, humans gain +1 skill rank each level, but this has nothing to do with what class they take, and is purely because they are humans. Humans can get 2 extra skill ranks each level above what the class and their intelligence could give them.

[poundpuppy30]

Yeah this is for sure going on my level 1 wizard, so he can get a total of 8 skill ranks per level total.

[Karaethon]

poundpuppy30 wrote:

Yeah this is for sure going on my level 1 wizard, so he can get a total of 8 skill ranks per level total.

It's best just to take toughness at first, you can get one skill point with your favorite class or one hit point. Fast learner lets you get both one skill point and one hit point, toughness gives you three hit points at level one and one more at fourth and each level there after, and you can still grab the skill point from your favorite class. If you want more hit points take Fast learner after toughness.

[Troubleshooter]

Karaethon wrote:

poundpuppy30 wrote:

Yeah this is for sure going on my level 1 wizard, so he can get a total of 8 skill ranks per level total.

It's best just to take toughness at first, you can get one skill point with your favorite class or one hit point. Fast learner lets you get both one skill point and one hit point, toughness gives you three hit points at level one and one more at fourth and each level there after, and you can still grab the skill point from your favorite class. If you want more hit points take Fast learner after toughness.

Toughness is also more likely to be a prerequisite for other feats than Fast Learner is. Don't know of any offhand though.

[Wu Nakitu]

Troubleshooter wrote:

Toughness is also more likely to be a prerequisite for other feats than Fast Learner is. Don't know of any offhand though.

Toughness opens up Draconic Defender and Reverse-Feint(Plus a bucket of 3PP stuff, but I couldn't see any other Paizo feats).

DD's pretty good, but 17 Con's a pretty steep req. Reverse-Feint is Orc-only, which limits it a fair amount.

Fast Learner is a prereq for Improvisation and it's improved version. So neither is a better gateway feat.

[Artanthos]

If you're a human wizard, you could take both toughness and fast learner at level 1.

[thejeff]

Artanthos wrote:

If you're a human wizard, take both toughness and fast learner at level 1.

If you really care about the extra skill point. You're a human wizard. You've got plenty of skill points from Int already. Another is nice, but is it worth the feat? 2+1(human)+4(18 Int) is already 7.

Take toughness and put your favored class bonus in hp.

[Artanthos]

Depends on the direction you want to build your character.

Personally, I take the Additional Traits feat before I take Fast Learner. The +4 bonus to two skills is more effective at low level than a couple of extra skill points.

[houser2112]

Or, you could take Open Minded, which has no pre-reqs at all.

[Nipin]

Karaethon wrote:

poundpuppy30 wrote:

Yeah this is for sure going on my level 1 wizard, so he can get a total of 8 skill ranks per level total.

It's best just to take toughness at first, you can get one skill point with your favorite class or one hit point. Fast learner lets you get both one skill point and one hit point, toughness gives you three hit points at level one and one more at fourth and each level there after, and you can still grab the skill point from your favorite class. If you want more hit points take Fast learner after toughness.

That depends on whether Fast Learner would add 1hp for previous levels taken. As written I would assume it only adds for levels taken starting when you gain the feat. This would mean you should take Fast Learner at 1st level to gain the most benefit from it. Toughness gives the same number of hp regardless of when it is taken.

[thejeff]

Nipin wrote:

Karaethon wrote:

poundpuppy30 wrote:

Yeah this is for sure going on my level 1 wizard, so he can get a total of 8 skill ranks per level total.

It's best just to take toughness at first, you can get one skill point with your favorite class or one hit point. Fast learner lets you get both one skill point and one hit point, toughness gives you three hit points at level one and one more at fourth and each level there after, and you can still grab the skill point from your favorite class. If you want more hit points take Fast learner after toughness.

That depends on whether Fast Learner would add 1hp for previous levels taken. As written I would assume it only adds for levels taken starting when you gain the feat. This would mean you should take Fast Learner at 1st level to gain the most benefit from it. Toughness gives the same number of hp regardless of when it is taken.

OTOH, Toughness gives 3hp up front, helping you survive that first level. If you're only going to take one, take Toughness and take it at 1st level. If you really want more hp, take both and probably take Fast Learner first.

Though in honesty, I expect Fast Learner should provide retroactive bonuses. Pretty much everything else in the game does. Where you end up isn't supposed to depend on what order you took things.

[Craig Mercer]

It might be there to help those people who keep complaining about a lack of skill points with their Fighter.
Fast learner requires Int 13, so Int can't be the dump stat.
It gives them the HP they always take for favored class.
So instead of having 2 skill points (1 for Int 7 and 1 for Human), they have 5 skill points (3 for Int 13, 1 for Human and one for Fast learner).

[thejeff]

Craig Mercer wrote:

It might be there to help those people who keep complaining about a lack of skill points with their Fighter.

Fast learner requires Int 13, so Int can't be the dump stat.
It gives them the HP they always take for favored class.
So instead of having 2 skill points (1 for Int 7 and 1 for Human), they have 5 skill points (3 for Int 13, 1 for Human and one for Fast learner).

Or they could take Toughness and put the favored class point into skills for the same result and take a 12 Int instead of a 13.

[Craig Mercer]

thejeff wrote:

Craig Mercer wrote:

It might be there to help those people who keep complaining about a lack of skill points with their Fighter.

Fast learner requires Int 13, so Int can't be the dump stat.
It gives them the HP they always take for favored class.
So instead of having 2 skill points (1 for Int 7 and 1 for Human), they have 5 skill points (3 for Int 13, 1 for Human and one for Fast learner).

Or they could take Toughness and put the favored class point into skills for the same result and take a 12 Int instead of a 13.

They seem more inclined to take the HP from Toughness and the HP from Favored class, given the choice.

[strayshift]

Firstly it is one of my favourite feats, secondly it (obviously) is best when you plan on staying on a single class throughout your entire career, thirdly (and more subtly) it depends on the role your skills will play in your character as to whether this is worth it.

For example a friend has a human fighter who is good at Use Magic Device and Perception (they are both class skills from traits for him) and so needs the extra skill points whereas a human wizard may well not need the skill points because of their high Intelligence, racial bonus and the focussed nature of the character.

Ultimately the value of the feat is related to how you see skills operating for your character and the long term development of the character within a single favoured class.

[Michael Sayre]

Note, Fast Learner is not retroactive, so if you're going to take it, try to take it right off the bat and then pick toughness up later, since Toughness is retroactive.

[thejeff]

strayshift wrote:

Firstly it is one of my favourite feats, secondly it (obviously) is best when you plan on staying on a single class throughout your entire career, thirdly (and more subtly) it depends on the role your skills will play in your character as to whether this is worth it.

For example a friend has a human fighter who is good at Use Magic Device and Perception (they are both class skills from traits for him) and so needs the extra skill points whereas a human wizard may well not need the skill points because of their high Intelligence, racial bonus and the focussed nature of the character.

Ultimately the value of the feat is related to how you see skills operating for your character and the long term development of the character within a single favoured class.

Do you also take Toughness?

If not, you should take it instead.
Then you don't have to worry about staying single classed and you get the first 3 hp up front.

Other than as a prereq, Toughness is strictly better than Fast Learner.

[Michael Sayre]

thejeff wrote:

Do you also take Toughness?

If not, you should take it instead.
Then you don't have to worry about staying single classed and you get the first 3 hp up front.

Other than as a prereq, Toughness is strictly better than Fast Learner.

Toughness' usefulness for prereqs is actually what would make it better. It seemed like the OP's focus was on increasing his skills and hp simultaneously though, for which taking Fast Learner first would give the edge (at least in skill gain since it's not retroactive like Toughness). Generally I wouldn't bother with a Wizard taking Fast Learner though since they're already typically gaining 5-6 skill points a level and can bypass many areas that would require skill checks with spells. Fast Learner is something I'm much more likely to take with either a Fighter or a Ranger who I want to be able to fill the skill monkey role and for whom I planned on picking up Toughness down the road.

[strayshift]

I don't take toughness for the retro-active reasons stated previously in this thread and unless I am going to engage in regular front line combat I don't take toughness as a caster.

Hit Points are important yes, but toughness only has the advantage there for the first 2 levels, which tend to be the quickest to progress from - if I am a caster I am not going to spend 2 feats on extra hit points, 1 will suffice subject to the preconditions I mentioned previously (single class and need of skill points).

Personal taste though.

[thejeff]

Taking Toughness and putting your favored class point into skills is exactly the same as taking Fast Learner, except that you front load a couple of hp. And you still get 1hp when you multiclass. It also has the advantage that you can choose to ditch the skill point for hit points on a level by level basis. Flexibility is good.

There is no reason to take Fast Learner unless you also take Toughness. In which case you should probably take Fast Learner first. Unless you're really worried about those extra hp at 1st level.

[EgyptFanatic]

Well I am off to go brew up a Barbarian with 20 CON/13 INT, Toughness and Fast Learner at 1st, Invigorating Rage at 3rd for more CON.

[Ravingdork]

What is Invigorating Rage?

[Diego Rossi]

Nipin wrote:

Karaethon wrote:

poundpuppy30 wrote:

Yeah this is for sure going on my level 1 wizard, so he can get a total of 8 skill ranks per level total.

It's best just to take toughness at first, you can get one skill point with your favorite class or one hit point. Fast learner lets you get both one skill point and one hit point, toughness gives you three hit points at level one and one more at fourth and each level there after, and you can still grab the skill point from your favorite class. If you want more hit points take Fast learner after toughness.

That depends on whether Fast Learner would add 1hp for previous levels taken. As written I would assume it only adds for levels taken starting when you gain the feat. This would mean you should take Fast Learner at 1st level to gain the most benefit from it. Toughness gives the same number of hp regardless of when it is taken.

For ease of calculation all bonus of this kind give the same benefits that you would have got having them from first level. Here Ravindork link a few posts from developers that say that.

[Mergy]

The only reason to take Fast Learner over Toughness is because of Improvisation. Have you ever wanted to be able to roll every single Knowledge, Profession and Perform? Now you can!

[blackbloodtroll]

Invigorating enchantment?