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Hello,
I'm new to PFS but not RPGs. Just started PF in a private group but am thinking PFS would be fun.
A character I'm fleshing out in my mind would be a good fit for a Beguiler, but I'm not sure that class is allowed in PFS.
Can anyone confirm?
Classes from the Pathfinder core rulebook, Advanced Player's Guide, Ultimate Magic and Ultimate Combat are legal choices for Pathfinder Society. Classes from other publishers and other editions of the game are not valid choices.
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It's not recommended to multiclass in PF since your character might be weaker and you might be displeased with the result. If you do plan to multiclass at least take two classes that get spells faster and one of them gains BaB at full speed. For example fighter/wizard.
I support however going for Bard class. It has many different archetypes.
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It's not recommended to multiclass in PF since your character might be weaker and you might be displeased with the result. If you do plan to multiclass at least take two classes that get spells faster and one of them gains BaB at full speed. For example fighter/wizard.
I support however going for Bard class. It has many different archetypes.
I disagree. Some of the most effective characters I have seen have been multiclassed because they are min-maxed. Barbarians with a level of cleric to get the travel domain, etc. It all depends on the build.
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Bards are much better than in 3.x, and do most of what a Beguiler could do without losing BAB/CL from multiclassing (assuming you might want to hit in combat or penetrate spell resistance.)
If it's Beguiler's spells you like (and tons of skills) go this route.
If you don't plan on rolling an attack roll/SR roll, rogue/sorcerer works, maybe going into Arcane Trickster. In PFS, a lot of people play combat characters, so as 'lame' as your PC would be, you'd actually get a lot of noncombat mileage out of it, and most PFS scenarios have a call for such talents.
I'd only do this later, once you're more familiar with the sacrifices you're making, and know the player base you might end up teamed with.
It'd take finesse to succeed with this.
Also, in PF, since the skills system works so differently than in 3.x, you can take 1 level of Rogue (or 2 for Evasion and a neat trick), and gets lots of +3 bonuses for class skills (once you have a chance to put a skill point in them). Your skills will be modest (but useful) across the board, but with the trait (now legal) that allows you to cast at +2 Caster Level (up to character level as max) you won't fall behind on CL, though you'll have fewer spells known (including 1 spell level behind) so you've got a limp, but PFS isn't that hard you can't stumble through IF you know the risks.
Also, if you just want a few skills to augment your spellpower (instead of many like with the Bard), you can take traits to make them class skills and have a full blown sorcerer (perhaps with a bloodline that augments your skills/Beguiling nature even more). Full casters are rare around my parts, and this would be a welcome addition to most melee heavy groups here.
Also, in PF, anybody can detect traps equally, and except for magic traps, anybody can defuse traps equally.
If you want to throw spells every round, and only need Stealth, Bluff, and a few others skills at max, then I'd advise this route (assuming you're spell savvy).
Cheers, JMK
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I'm looking for a skill money with some casting ability. Open to suggestions.
If you do want to do a Sorcerer based Arcane Trickster, here's how I recommend going about it.
Rogue1/Sorcerer4/Sleepless Detective1/Arcane TricksterX
This lets you qualify for Arcane Trickster as soon as the Wizard3/Rogue3/Arcane TricksterX and not lose out on caster levels. You'll lose out on evasion, but you'll be enjoying Arcane Trickster sooner.
Also, I believe that Sleepless Detective is the only PrC that gives sneak attack at level 1 which doesn't already require 2d6 sneak attack.
The best arcane trickster if your optimizing is a vivisectionist/Wizard if I remember correctly, but vivisectionist isn't allowed in society play sadly.(It had intellect synergy and you got a spell list from both classes!) You can however play a straight wizard or sorcerer with a spell list devoted to illusion/charms, and bard and its archetypes are can be very similar to the spellthief and beguiler.
Note that the Sandman bard archetype is somewhat similar to the 3.5 Beguiler class. It has trapfinding and an ability very similar to the Beguiler's Cloaked Casting ability. It also has abilities somewhat similar to the 3.5 Spellthief class, for what it's worth.
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Thanks for all the suggestions.
Some things I should let everyone know:
1. I don't mind not being a wheeling death machine in melee combat. I'm assuming someone (or everyone) will have this role largely covered.
2. I have played rogues historically, and have been successful due to creative ideas and using skills/abilities.
3. Sneak attack would be nice. Would also like to add some spell casting to spice things up.
4. This character is essentially a Lawyer/Bounty Hunter/Investigator who fixes problems for those able to afford him. He deals in information, altering perceptions and manipulating people.
5. Prestige classes I'm considering are Sleepless Detective or Bloodhound.
6. Classes/Archetypes I'm considering for the character below are: Bard Detective, Bard Sandman, Urban Ranger or possibly Urban Ranger/Sorcerer, Rogue Investigator/Sorcerer
7. I prefer playing/running cerebral games with an emphasis on role playing and creative solutions. I realize that (sadly) many adventures will be combat heavy instead of having a complicated story unfolding around the party. I'm cool with that.
With that in mind, I'm conceiving a versatile character with a complicated past. Let me tell you about him:
R. D. was a boy whose parents (a local attorney and a seamstress) died in a fire (he later learns was arson) leaving him begging in the streets. After being caught stealing and begging, he was sent to a crowded, dangerous orphanage for several years.
While incarcerated he survived by his wits and ability to create opportunity where none previously existed.
As an adolescent, fortune smiled upon RD. A wealthy uncle from Absalom arrived one Saturday. He explained that he had been told everyone had died in the fire. Later learning that RD had survived the fire. he had spent considerable time locating and arranging guardianship of him.
Overjoyed, RD went to live with his uncle. With some money spread around and favors called in, RD's criminal history vanished and he was able to enjoy the best education available.
As a young man RD took work in his uncles offices, apprenticing as an attorney, bail bondsman, skip tracer, and investigator. However, their primary business was making ugly messes go away and "fixing" problems.
As a man, RD is calm, cool under pressure, opportunistic and has a knack for improvising. His presence has an air of gravitas, self mastery and confidence and sometimes inspires confidence and other times irritation.
Perhaps you were wronged and seek information for revenge, or perhaps you are a clergyman and find yourself in bed with a dead prostitute, perhaps you are a museum curator who's masterpiece is stolen, or perhaps you want the thief who stole your family heirloom identified or captured, perhaps you are being framed for a murder...or perhaps you are guilty of murder..being blackmailed or extorted..
No matter the unfortunate situation, the truth can be "adjusted". Perceptions can be controlled and justice can be arranged....often through alternate channels and at a high price... monetarily, via a boon or both.
Using a combination of guile, interpersonal connections, gold and exchanging favors and information, the business is perpetual and unpredictable.
One week RD could be defending or prosecuting in a courtroom, the next he could be covering up an evening of indiscretions for a noble, the following weeks he could be man-tracking a criminal.
The one constant in RD's life is his support of the local street kids and orphanages, where he tutors children and makes donations.
At times RD will go on walkabout to clear his mind. He enjoys capturing his thoughts and the details of his journeys in a journal containing sketches, maps and verse.
All that being said, I'm wanting some kind of caster/rogue, thinking of the Beguiler, but there are some feats in the Bard Detective that seem useful. Prestige classes I find interesting are Bloodhound or Chronicler.
I could use some help with synergistic feats, skills, etc..
Any thoughts?
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Not sure what this Bloodhound prestige class is, so make sure it's PFS-legal before you consider it.
One note you touched on was creative skill use. Creative skill use can be, depending on the DM, very helpful in Faction Missions. Faction missions are little faction-based missions given in each scenario until S5 starts that give you the ability to buy better things later, get free purchases, etc. etc. Having a smattering of skills like a social skill, a knowledge (or bardic, in many of your cases), and something like Sleight of Hand may not be always useful for you, but it could be useful for somebody and people are often ready to pay back favors like that in earnest.
Additionally, you've also got to think about your faction; the associated group that sponsors your character. With the given backstory, I could see it easily fit into Sczarni, Andoran, or Taldor with no trouble depending on the tone of the character (and possibly Cheliax, though that one may be a little rougher.)
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Not sure what this Bloodhound prestige class is, so make sure it's PFS-legal before you consider it.
One note you touched on was creative skill use. Creative skill use can be, depending on the DM, very helpful in Faction Missions. Faction missions are little faction-based missions given in each scenario until S5 starts that give you the ability to buy better things later, get free purchases, etc. etc. Having a smattering of skills like a social skill, a knowledge (or bardic, in many of your cases), and something like Sleight of Hand may not be always useful for you, but it could be useful for somebody and people are often ready to pay back favors like that in earnest.
Additionally, you've also got to think about your faction; the associated group that sponsors your character. With the given backstory, I could see it easily fit into Sczarni, Andoran, or Taldor with no trouble depending on the tone of the character (and possibly Cheliax, though that one may be a little rougher.)
Good points about the skills. That is exactly the route I'm considering.
As far as factions, I hadn't thought much about it, but after a look I think Andoran, Taldor, Osirion or Shadow Lodge would all have interesting possibilities. I'm not sure which is most practical in creation of meaningful gameplay though.
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What is the major disadvantage of multiclassing?
If I start with Rogue or Urban Ranger, then move into sorcerer later, can I still advance in each?
How will that affect gaining spells, feats and class attributes? My understanding is that you can still advance in each, but at essentially half the rate.
Are there other drawbacks I'm missing?
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What is the major disadvantage of multiclassing?
If I start with Rogue or Urban Ranger, then move into sorcerer later, can I still advance in each?
How will that affect gaining spells, feats and class attributes? My understanding is that you can still advance in each, but at essentially half the rate.
Are there other drawbacks I'm missing?
when you sit down at a table with us, and you are a 3/3 Rogue/Sorcerer, you'll need to realize that you are basicly a Rogue with a few spells. And worse yet, a rogue with fewer skills maxed out.
As a spell caster you will have 1st level spells only, (and 3rd level bloodline powers).
As a rogue you will have 18 skill points less than a rogue of 6th level (and one sneak dice less), in other words 3 maxed out skills that you don't have points for.
basicly, you are going to be less able to do the things a rogue can do, will being MUCH weaker as a spell caster.
Does this mean I am adviseing against this? heck no!
I myself have a Wizard/Rogue/Arcane Trickster (3/3/3) who's a lot of fun to play! But I realize that when I sit at a table, I'm just a Rogue with some spells, and the ability to use wands without UMD.
I am assuming you are coming from 3.5 where multi-classing was often helpful. In PF the system has enough changes that multiclassing often makes you weaker than if you had not multiclassed and you are only allowed to use PF(Pathfinder) material so no 3.5 Prestige classes, feats, and so on. If Pathfinder has their own version of such things, then you can use the Pathfinder version.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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What is the major disadvantage of multiclassing?
If I start with Rogue or Urban Ranger, then move into sorcerer later, can I still advance in each?
How will that affect gaining spells, feats and class attributes? My understanding is that you can still advance in each, but at essentially half the rate.
Are there other drawbacks I'm missing?
The biggest issue with multiclassing is for spellcasters. Take more than a one or two level dip outside your casting class, and you're looking at some pretty second-rate casting. It's not as bad for martials: BAB stacks, so if you're a Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian/Gunslinger/Cavalier/Whatever, you still have full BAB, same as if you were Fighter6 (epic Fort save, though).
But if instead you're a wizard/sorc/cleric/oracle/druid/witch, you're still just casting 1st-level spells (at CL1 each) while your monoclassed peers are about to reach 4th-level spells. Magic missile for 1d4+1 is gonna feel pretty lame compared to a 6d6 fireball, especially given the other guy can also cast magic missile but for triple the damage. Not to mention you're 6th level with +0 BAB and therefore can't so much as draw a weapon at the same time you move (epic Will save, though).Of course, those are the extremes. Somewhere in the middle is an assortment of very satisfying multiclass builds, including with spellcasters. I have a very successful Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight, for example. There's always the Arcane Trickster as well.
You just have to be careful and deliberate is all.
Does BAB stack for multiple attacks? Never got that quite right.
What do you mean? If you have 10 strength and your a wizard 3/Ranger 5, you get one attack at +6 and another at +1. +6/+1. If that's what your asking...
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Forget about which classes your BAB comes from (except in determining your base BAB) for figuring when you gain an extra attack - once it hits a TOTAL of +6 you get an extra attack at +1. You don't need to track BAB separately as it stacks from each source.
So just look at the BASE BAB (the 1st number on the chart) for each class at that classes level you're at & add them up. Once that hits +6 you get one extra attack at base BAB -5. If it's at +11 you get two extra attacks, one at BAB -5 and one at BAB -10.
Would, for example, a Fighter 5/Hellknight 5 have a +10/+5, or just a +10?
He would have +10/+5, to clarify. If he then for some reason dipped into ranger he would have +11/+6/+1. Doesn't matter where you got your BAB from. Otherwise no melee would dip, or at least less so than they already do.
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After pouring through archetypes and classes, I can't find anything that fits the need without multiclassing.
The problem, in character, is that he is on the underbelly of nobility and the legal system and is in the middle of webs of secrets of powerful people. He's going to need something foreboding about him to keep from being seen as a loose end that needs tying up.
I considered the Bard Detective or the Urban Ranger, then later taking Shadow Dancer. That seemed to somewhat fit and could be interesting.
The problem is, I don't think either get access to Rogue Talents, like Follow Clues, that will be critical to playing the character.
I'm considering Rogue(Investigator)/Sorcerer(Abyssal). Should be a very dark, mysterious guy who could be formidable by mid-levels.
Thoughts or ideas?
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You could go ninja. They don't get spellcasting - but they do get Ki powers if you're looking for something supernatural to go along with your sneaking.
Also - ninja might be a better bet than rogue to multiclass with sorceror if you do decide to go that way - they both use Cha as a primary stat (ninjas for Ki points/powers).
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You could go ninja. They don't get spellcasting - but they do get Ki powers if you're looking for something supernatural to go along with your sneaking.
Also - ninja might be a better bet than rogue to multiclass with sorceror if you do decide to go that way - they both use Cha as a primary stat (ninjas for Ki points/powers).
Does the Ninja have access to the Rogue Talents/Advanced Rogue Talents?
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The other thing for PFS is the fact that there is no "Extra Ninja Trick" feat, and they have yet to errata Extra Rogue Talent to count for it.
Note that "Ninja Trick: Rogue Talent" doesn't give you the "Rogue Talent" class feature.
OK, lets approach this from a different angle.
If you were trying to build a character for PFS with the following requirements, how would you do it without multiclassing?
1. Ability to Gather Information to locate people/places/things
2. Ability to stealthily take down targets (both people/things/information)
3. Ability to survive combat encounters in PFS
4. Have a dark, supernatural component.
5. Have descent skill variety.
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Piece by piece, here's how I'd do it (or at least respond to being presented the challenge.)
1. Ability to Gather Information to locate people/places/things
This is either Diplomacy or Knowledge Local, so any Int or Cha-based classes that get either as a class skill. If by some miracle you didn't pick a class that gets that, Ease of Faith gives you +1 to Diplomacy checks and makes it a class skill.
2. Ability to stealthily take down targets (both people/things/information)
Note that I'm entirely sure how information can be interred as "take down targets", but I'd like to note that in more cases than not, the PCs are going to get jumped by the enemies with very little variation. Being a lone wolf sniper is going to either get you killed by pulling encounters together or be entirely useless until you can get greater invisibility. This isn't really achievable in early PFS levels, I feel.
Later on, being a Rogue or Ninja -> Shadowdancer (or merely taking the Hide In Plain Sight Advanced Talent at 10th) can achieve this. Getting Strength drained to 0 makes someone incapable of talking, which is pretty quiet.
3. Ability to survive combat encounters in PFS
Playing smart, a 5 Con Elf Diviner Wizard can survive the most difficult of encounters. A better build helps, but isn't tied to one specific class.
4. Have a dark, supernatural component.
If you want to go stereotypical, Tiefling. Heck, you get Darkness 1/day as a spell-like ability.
The problem here is the term "supernatural." This is Golarion, a world soaked in magic. If a town doesn't have magic, it's a rarity.
5. Have decent skill variety.
Bards, Rogues, Ninja all get good skill points. Alchemist is good on the stealth aspect by being able to get Invisibility later, but also being able to crank up their Dexterity and Strength to gross amounts with Extracts and Mutagens.
Alchemists can also make Batman-tier lists of "Emergency Alchemical Items" and Extracts. Need to have a really good perception? Acute Senses. Going to fight invisible things? See Invisibility. The list continues, etc. etc.
As for race Tieflings have an inherit bonus to Int as well as this brooding antihero feel you're going for. Regular humans are versetile enough with Skilled which give them an ADDITIONAL skill point per level, on top of whatever they're already getting (which would be a lot as any of the above skill-getting classes.)
Hopefully this helps some.
OK, lets approach this from a different angle.
If you were trying to build a character for PFS with the following requirements, how would you do it without multiclassing?
1. Ability to Gather Information to locate people/places/things
2. Ability to stealthily take down targets (both people/things/information)
3. Ability to survive combat encounters in PFS
4. Have a dark, supernatural component.
5. Have descent skill variety.
For 1, 3, 4 and 5, you have lots of alternatives (bard, alchemist, ninja). I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "take down targets (both people/things/information)", though.
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You might be looking for an Inquisitor. They get:
-Bonus to tracking
-Wis modifier to Knowledge rolls to identify monsters
-Lots of skill points for Stealth, Diplomacy, Knowledge (local), etc.
-Tons of class skills
-With the right build, you can use Wisdom for Diplomacy as well
-You can get your powers from an evil god
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1. Ability to Gather Information to locate people/places/things
Have diplomacy as a class skill
2. Ability to stealthily take down targets (both people/things/information)
Have stealth as a class skill. Either get a class with it as a skill or pick up a trait to make it one.
3. Ability to survive combat encounters in PFS
decent armor and good offense.
4. Have a dark, supernatural component.
Tiefling
5. Have descent skill variety.
Ranger
Tiefling ranger with the extremely fashionable trait.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I'd second RDN's inquisitor idea, and also add the Archaeologist Bard. You'll be able to gather info via Diplomacy with solid CHA, you'll likely be DEX based for good Stealth and such, you can contribute to combat with ANY Pathfinder class, you'll be magical and can roleplay it darkly (especially with the right spell selections), and have tons of skill variety.
You'll even gain access to Rogue Talents.
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I'd second RDN's inquisitor idea, and also add the Archaeologist Bard. You'll be able to gather info via Diplomacy with solid CHA, you'll likely be DEX based for good Stealth and such, you can contribute to combat with ANY Pathfinder class, you'll be magical and can roleplay it darkly (especially with the right spell selections), and have tons of skill variety.
You'll even gain access to Rogue Talents.
How can Bards gain access to Rogue Talents?
How can Bards gain access to Rogue Talents?I'd second RDN's inquisitor idea, and also add the Archaeologist Bard. You'll be able to gather info via Diplomacy with solid CHA, you'll likely be DEX based for good Stealth and such, you can contribute to combat with ANY Pathfinder class, you'll be magical and can roleplay it darkly (especially with the right spell selections), and have tons of skill variety.
You'll even gain access to Rogue Talents.
There is a bard type that gets access to rogue talents. I think it is the archaeologist.
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Rogue Talents: At 4th level, an archaeologist gains a rogue talent. He gains an additional rogue talent for every four levels of archaeologist gained after 4th level. Otherwise, this works as the rogue's rogue talent ability.
Once you hit 4th, your feats can also get Rogue Talents, since it functions like a Rogue's Rogue Talent ability.
Additionally, put me in the camp where multiclassing is okay. It's just... a little rougher on caster classes.
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Can I start PFS at 2HD, or do I need to start at 1st level?All new characters start at 1st level (0 XP).
That being said, you could GM three games and apply the GM credits to a first-level character, of course. It's a good way to keep those characters that don't really work until 2nd level alive/useful through their career. *cough*twfrangers*cough*