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Riddles and puzzles are okay, if used sparingly. I try to keep it to one per game session. I think my sessions are on the short side, though.
How about asking your players how they feel about riddles?
It could turn into a good roleplaying exercise Perhaps if the Int 5 Barbarian's player figures it out, he tells the Int 19 Wizard's player, and they cooperate to find a good way to roleplay it out.
Maybe the Barb player could roleplay an inadvertent hint that would make the wizard yell, "That's it, Korg! You're a genius!"
Then Korg's all, "What?"
Also, it could be a memorable moment if big dumb Korg stumbles upon the answer...
I like the idea of giving the players Int or Wis rolls for hints, but make sure you have some hints ready. At least two more than you'd think you need. It's easy to underestimate the difficulty of a riddle when you already know the answer.
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I meant to use some combination of those options. Plus there is always the brute-force option.The true solution would be to use their character abilities to find the answer: Maybe they can cast Speak With Dead on a nearby corpse. Or there is a slip of paper where someone wrote the password earlier in the dungeon. Or maybe they can use Detect Magic to reveal an invisible arcane mark a foolish minion used to record the password, since they had a bad memory. Heck, the party can use their adamantium pick axe to tunnel through the door.I hate this kind of situation, because there is usually only one way to get out, usually really not obvious (except to the GM of course) and/or that escapes you because you did not roll high enough on your skill check.
The party ends up being punished (sometimes even killed) for not being able to read the GM's mind.
No! Not the BFI option!
Sorry, but I just finished Delirium's Maze. Way too much delirium, and not enough maze. I expected going in to have a nice change of pace from the usual hack and slash party. I was hoping for a good maze, with actual mapping required, some traps and riddles, and just enough combat to make it exciting.
If you doing a maze game, or a puzzle game or a riddle game, then the players' mapping skills and logic skills that should be involved in finding the solution. However, if you want to roll play it, then you let the players metagame it, so that when the 6 INT barbarian answers the riddle metagaming as a player, the 18 INT sorcerer actually gives the party's selected answer "in game". Also, the entire party missing the puzzle should be something a bit less stringent than a TPK encounter or a total mission fail, but should definitely reduce the GP or XP rewards for the scenario. Too bad you missed the riddle, you would have found a +2 Croquet Mallet of the Red Queen
By the way, some of us LIKE to make maps, and solve riddles and puzzles and logic problems, and not just roll dice and be told. Gygax invented this game system, and Tolkien immortalized the medieval fantasy genre in a way that sparked Gygax's inventiveness, and both of them liked riddles.
Speak friend and enter.
Riddles are like jokes, they've all been told before, you just have to find a new twist to them so they doesn't sound so familiar, or doesn't quite have the same answer. Like making the party figure out exactly how many kits, cats, sacks and wives that fellow had who was leaving St. Ives.
Or it can be an easy riddle,
"Riddle me this, Batman.
"When is a door not a door?
which is just a vague hint as to the real solution: take the urn (a jar) that just happens to be laying on the floor nearby and put it on the pedestal, which activates a secret door. This is something that "could" be by-passed through in-game Skill checks, but it wouldn't be as much fun.
@OP: It depends on how good your players are at this type of thing and how much/well they RP, of course, but generally speaking I think it's too easy. And as other posters have suggested, I'd recommend a very hard puzzle which can be made easier through hints gained from successful checks and "good thinking" in general. If this is well balanced, the PC statistics remain mechanically relevant and you can still give the players a challenge, just as a PC's statistics and the player's skill with tactics both matter in combat.
On another level, though, I don't necessarily think Intelligence always helps with riddles. It's very possible to over think things and miss a simple answer. Puzzles and riddles are not about pure intellectual power, they are about thinking sideways. I don't think there's an attribute for that, nor should there be. I don't find anything immersion breaking about an Int 7 Barbarian solving a riddle an Int 22 Wizard couldn't figure out.
A bit OT, but I have to ask: which ability score or combination of ability scores would you use to represent a character's IQ, and why?
I can agree that finding the correct answer to a riddle may sometimes largely depend on being creative and having sufficient knowledge of the relevant language and the cultural context (thus being able to read "born" as a synonym to "produced" or "created", using the truly wonderful fart riddle by a previous poster as an example). But AFAIK, puzzles such as the one described in the OP are indeed about "pure intellectual power", if my interpretation that this refers to cognitive ability is correct. I mean, unless you're dyslectic or similar, your ability to solve the puzzle and the time you require to do so is to at least 99% a product of your capacity for logical reasoning, one of the aspects of IQ, typically measured with rather similar puzzles.
And IMHO, no real world attribute is as obviously and exclusively tied to one single PC ability score as IQ.
A bit OT, but I have to ask: which ability score or combination of ability scores would you use to represent a character's IQ, and why?
Oh man, I have no idea how to answer this--as you intended, or the literal answer.
I think IQ is a terrible judge of anything. IQ is a measurement originally designed to measure how "not retarded" you are. It's much, much more useful for measuring results below 100 than above, and it gets arbitrary at the higher end.
So, I think IQ is a BS measurement in general (no, this is not me bitter about a low score--I have a genius level IQ, but that doesn't mean I think it's useful to know that).
But AFAIK, puzzles such as the one described in the OP are indeed about "pure intellectual power", if my interpretation that this refers to cognitive ability is correct. I mean, unless you're dyslectic or similar, your ability to solve the puzzle and the time you require to do so is to at least 99% a product of your capacity for logical reasoning, one of the aspects of IQ, typically measured with rather similar puzzles.
I don't agree. Now, this is going to be a weird phrasing, but I don't know a better way to say it:
Solving logic puzzles is a lot less about solving the puzzle and a lot more about figuring out how to solve the puzzle.
The world's most powerful calculator can't solve a word problem if you don't put the equation in right.
So, sure, the speed with which you brute force the answer to the puzzle above might be a question of logical processing power, but anyone would get it eventually. The real trick is figuring out how to brute force it (i.e. to look at the outcome if each statement were true until there are no conflicts) or noticing the shortcut (that two statements conflict, so one must be true, but that it doesn't matter which one because it means the "not X" statement means X is the answer).
That said, if you were to ask me what attributes measure a character's logical processing power, their cleverness, or whatever other sort of thing you've attributed to "IQ," I would say that no combination of attributes do. In fact, I think it is conspicuous and purposeful in its absence, because I think that aspect of your character is supplied by the player.
If you look at what Intelligence covers, it's more about your education, knowledge, experience--it strikes me as a stat that covers work ethic and focus more than logical processing. And originally, it was basically just "the magic stat" anyway.
Wisdom to me is a stupid stat and always has been. I know from 3rd edition on, Wisdom has become "Perception and Willpower," but it originated as "Oh crap, what if we want kind old priests that lack education as clerics? Better add a Piety stat without actually using the word Piety." I know a lot of people consider it the common sense attribute or the riddle stat (since you're "seeing through the trick" or zen meditation or whatever), but I don't but I don't buy it.
I figured out the riddle in approximately 10 minutes. All it took was some logic and reasoning. As far as riddles, it's an easier one, but not obviously easy.
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Riddles are stereotypically Wisdom related, not Int. Is it the brilliant scientist or the old secluded martial artist who conveys his teaching through riddles?
I agree. Better yet, it seems even more applicable that the Cleric would teach through riddles and parables, and the like. Definitely Wisdom, with Int maybe for some of the more logic and math based ones.
Riddles are stereotypically Wisdom related, not Int. Is it the brilliant scientist or the old secluded martial artist who conveys his teaching through riddles?I agree. Better yet, it seems even more applicable that the Cleric would teach through riddles and parables, and the like. Definitely Wisdom, with Int maybe for some of the more logic and math based ones.
It takes intelligence to solve them, but most think of those who teach with them as being wise. In reality I think of many people who teach with them as appealing to mysticism and the the sharpshooter fallacy; if they were really intelligent they could get their point across much more succinctly. ;P
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I'd still see that as Wis personally, and Cha to get it across. There's room for both, I think, depending on the type of riddle, and would probably require both.
Intelligence = Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.
Wisdom = Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition.
Int check revealed that they where statues of the two deities.
Wis checks would reveal two where Bahamut and two where of Pelor. Bahamut is known as the "Father of Dragons" while Pelor is a central sun deity.
A Wis check could also be given to catch that it should the "The Sun proceeds the Father", and to solve it you just needed to put the statues in order of Pelor, Bahamut, Pelor, Bahamut. It was a combination of perception, intuition, understanding, and reasoning.
Your underhanded jab at faith aside, I disagree. A year or two back, there was this long debate about this, but I still think that it makes much more sense for a Cleric, Druid, and Monk to have a better understanding of riddles, puzzles, and the like, in general, than it does for a Alchemist, Magus, Summoner, or Wizard. The Cleric, Druid, and Monk are taught this way much more commonly, focusing on understanding and piecing it together, while the Alchemist and Wizard types train much more one formulaic, scientific theory and fact. Underlying possibility vs absolute. AT the same time, it also makes a lot more sense in my opinion, that the Cleric, Druid, and Monk (more Wis based) as classes also have broader ranges of study and training would have a better understanding and be able to relate their combat training to developing art, and their understanding of history, sort of a more well rounded "classical education" vs the Alchemist or Wizards primarily book learning and individual experimentation, specialized/focus education.
I do think, particularly for riddles and puzzles, (and even more so ones in the game), that Int can actually get in the way just as much as it might help. Int will have you overthinking things, miss the obvious, and fail to see the underlying point, and might even make it harder to understand the riddle itself.
I am the beginning of eternity, and the end of time.
Equally in both life as I am death,
Never in war, but twice in peace.
You will ever find me at birth, nor burial,
But twice in the preaching, and once in the listening.
A small Int based reference for showing the difference, in my opinion. I just sort of made it up.
I will always follow the eye when I head to sea,
but once I see, will set the eye behind me.
What am I?
If you try to rationalize or find something that is true for all these things, you will probably fail for overthinking it. Pattern recognition may help, as will simply stepping back and looking at it with common sense and a different perspective, it's pretty simple.
Riddles are stereotypically Wisdom related, not Int. Is it the brilliant scientist or the old secluded martial artist who conveys his teaching through riddles?
Yes, riddles are probably mostly Wis related. But puzzles? These typically challenge logical and/or spatial abilities. If a PC ever had to make a check in order to solve one of these, I think it would be really weird to base that check on anything other than Int.
A bit OT, but I have to ask: which ability score or combination of ability scores would you use to represent a character's IQ, and why?Oh man, I have no idea how to answer this--as you intended, or the literal answer.
I think IQ is a terrible judge of anything. IQ is a measurement originally designed to measure how "not retarded" you are. It's much, much more useful for measuring results below 100 than above, and it gets arbitrary at the higher end.
So, I think IQ is a BS measurement in general (no, this is not me bitter about a low score--I have a genius level IQ, but that doesn't mean I think it's useful to know that).
I agree to/know about much of this (and believe lots of people and organizations still have a myopic and slightly elitist focus on IQ). Still though, I cannot deny that IQ is one of the most (or THE most) well researched field in psychology, and a low or high score has been proven to have a rather significant impact on many important things in real life. For example, my own years in grade school would probably have been much happier and productive (instead of mostly boring and borderline destructive) if the teaching had been better adapted to each pupil's cognitive ability (IQ).
(Side note: most IQ tests (such as WAIS III/IV) have been proven to be very accurate up to results of 130, which is very far from "not retarded". IOW, the arbitrary "higher end" applies to less than 1% of humanity.)
But AFAIK, puzzles such as the one described in the OP are indeed about "pure intellectual power", if my interpretation that this refers to cognitive ability is correct. I mean, unless you're dyslectic or similar, your ability to solve the puzzle and the time you require to do so is to at least 99% a product of your capacity for logical reasoning, one of the aspects of IQ, typically measured with rather similar puzzles.I don't agree. Now, this is going to be a weird phrasing, but I don't know a better way to say it:
Solving logic puzzles is a lot less about solving the puzzle and a lot more about figuring out how to solve the puzzle.
The world's most powerful calculator can't solve a word problem if you don't put the equation in right.
And the world's most powerful calculator would also have a ridiculously low IQ.
So, sure, the speed with which you brute force the answer to the puzzle above might be a question of logical processing power, but anyone would get it eventually. The real trick is figuring out how to brute force it (i.e. to look at the outcome if each statement were true until there are no conflicts) or noticing the shortcut (that two statements conflict, so one must be true, but that it doesn't matter which one because it means the "not X" statement means X is the answer).
I take it you don't remember much about the IQ test you've taken, because this - "figuring out the real trick" - is exactly one of the aspects specifically measured in most IQ tests. It's the very definition of logic and, for 99% of humanity (i.e. individuals having an IQ below 130), it's measured very well in IQ tests. This isn't my opinion BTW, it's an indisputably well proven fact.
That said, if you were to ask me what attributes measure a character's logical processing power, their cleverness, or whatever other sort of thing you've attributed to "IQ," I would say that no combination of attributes do. In fact, I think it is conspicuous and purposeful in its absence, because I think that aspect of your character is supplied by the player.
If you look at what Intelligence covers, it's more about your education, knowledge, experience--it strikes me as a stat that covers work ethic and focus more than logical processing. And originally, it was basically just "the magic stat" anyway.
Well, let's have a look a the PF definition of Int (my emphasis): "Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons." Again, exactly what IQ is an accurate measure of.
It takes intelligence to solve them, but most think of those who teach with them as being wise. In reality I think of many people who teach with them as appealing to mysticism and the the sharpshooter fallacy; if they were really intelligent they could get their point across much more succinctly. ;P
Heh, never heard of this fallacy before, but it's spot on!