Do bull rushes stack?


Rules Questions


Okay, I am building a shield basher and running through the mechanics of it I came to the question of whether bull rushes stack?

There is likely not a definite answer to this (maybe there is), but I would like to hear the arguments of those for and against bull rushes stacking.

You might be thinking, under what circumstances would you even run into this issue. Well all of the circumstances that I have hypothesized with this build stem from greater bull rush which gives you and others an attack of oppurtunity on a successful bull rush.

Anyway, so say I bull rush a guy and my teammate bull rushes a guy from an attack of oppurtunity immediately after my bull rush. If both manuevers are successful, how far back does the target go.


Unless I am missing something, you can not make a bull rush as an attack of opportunity. A bull rush is either a standard action or a replacement for an attack during a charge. As opposed to Disarm and Trip, which can be made in place of any melee attack (which includes attacks of opportunity.)


Assume I could for sake of argument. How far would the person travel?

The Exchange

Right; double-check the wording of the Combat Maneuvers. Disarm and trip can 'substitute for an attack' (which allows them to replace a normal attack during an AoO), while most others are a 'standard action', which isn't quite the same thing.


Driver 325 yards wrote:
Assume I could for sake of argument. How far would the person travel?

If my beard were made of green spinach, how much iron would it contain?


Okay, I guess we have to get pass this hurdle before I can get an answer to the question.

Let's say I charge and bull rush. I have greater bull rush so my bull rush makes the target provoke. I shield bash as my attack of oppurtunity. I have shield slam. Shield slam gives me a free bull rush on a successful shield bash. I bull rush.

There you have two bull rushes back to back.

So now my question. How far does the person go back? I would think as far as both bull rushes put together, but I am interested in the possible arguments that say otherwise.


Driver 325 yards wrote:
Let's say I charge and bull rush. I have greater bull rush so my bull rush makes the target provoke. I shield bash as my attack of oppurtunity. I have shield slam. Shield slam gives me a free bull rush on a successful shield bash. I bull rush.

Greater Bull Rush doesn't let you make an attack of opportunity. It lets your allies do so.

Quote:
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Bull Rush. Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).


That is that with regard to me. But lets say my buddy has shield slam. He uses his attack of oppurtunity from my greater bull rush to attack with his shield bash and gets a free bull rush.

Two bull rushes back to back.

How far does the person go.

Sovereign Court

The AoO bull rush result takes precedence because it interrupts yours. Your original bull rush merely causes a provocation but you can't complete it because of the interruption.

So picture it like this you bull rush an orc on a charge causing the orc to become off balance and stumble back into the path of your shield swinging ally who swats him. The off balance orc then pitches in the direction of the shield slam's bull rush and stops the appropriate distance away.

--School of Vrock


So I guess this is the only argument against them stacking.

Bull rushes interrupt bull rushes?


Considering Shield Slam specifically lets you bull rush after each hit with a shield bash, along with other possible ways to bull rush on an AoO like the Push monster/eidolon attack (technically not bull rush, but basically same end effect), it can certainly come up...

I would say the distances would just stack with each other. PF doesn't require you to move with the target to rush them more than 5 ft like in 3E, so it's apparently all about ho much force you can shove them away with. Another bull rusher's effort would add to yours. Since both of you needing to beat enemy CMD and then by 5 more for each additional 5 ft is a high access barrier, straight up adding the bull rush distances together seems fine, and definitely the simplest way of handling it.


Yes, I believe if you stack enough bulrushes, you get a sheaf.


vector addition imo

Liberty's Edge

I think they will not stack.
You ally shield slam don't interrupt your bull rush as it isn't the bull rush that provoke, but the movement of a target after a successful bull rush by a attacker with Greater Bull Rush. The target will move 5' or more away from you.
When your ally make his shield slam attack and his free bull rush attack he change the direction of the target movement, as your can't be on the same axis as the movement you imparted on the target (you would have bull rushed your ally, too). As the new movement is in a different direction, stacking them would generate some very weird move, so the simplest [Edited away on Lincoln Hill suggestion: best] solution is to have the new movement supersede the previous movement.

The Exchange

I agree with Diego Rossi, substituting only "simplest" for the word "best" in the last sentence. (Its simplicity might actually make it the best solution, but "it's a simple solution" is an easier position to defend.)


Diego Rossi wrote:

I think they will not stack.

You ally shield slam don't interrupt your bull rush as it isn't the bull rush that provoke, but the movement of a target after a successful bull rush by a attacker with Greater Bull Rush. The target will move 5' or more away from you.
When your ally make his shield slam attack and his free bull rush attack he change the direction of the target movement, as your can't be on the same axis as the movement you imparted on the target (you would have bull rushed your ally, too). As the new movement is in a different direction, stacking them would generate some very weird move, so the simplest [Edited away on Lincoln Hill suggestion: best] solution is to have the new movement supersede the previous movement.

Okay, the arguments against so far are as follows:

1)Bull rush interrupts bull rush; and
2)Adding bull rushes that are not on the same axis is too difficult so ignore the first bull rush to make it simplier.

Interesting, though I will note that vector addition would not be difficult at all. You simply perform both bull rush movements back to back and end up with the correct movement (simple math). So a push north by 10 ft and a push east 10ft equals a push northeast 10 feet (I should say simple physics).

That aside, you can get two bull rushes that go in the same direction. So I unveil scenario number two. A guy with a ramming shield and with the shield slam feat.

So, with a ramming shield, if you shield bash on a charge you can attempt a bull rush as a swift action. Also, as I have pointed out earlier, if you have shield slam and connect with a shield bash you get a free bull rush.

So there you have it. Two bull rushes back to back from the same spot pushing the target in the same direction. That is super easy math and/or physics.

Any new arguments against the two bull rushes stacking.


Yeah, my entire post could've just been summarized as "vector addition," I just kind of blanked on that.

It is very easy, and seems the fairest way to handle it. Although maybe it'd be better to use Pythagorean theorem for the hypotenuse between the two vectors. *shrug* When distance is done in whole 5 ft increments, perhaps that level of detail is best left out...

Liberty's Edge

No, you don't move your target the full movement from the first bull rush in one direction and then the full movement from the second shield bash in another direction. Doing it that way you generate a false set of movements.
The only way to do that that try to respect how adding vectors work is the use of "the Pythagorean theorem for the hypotenuse between the two vectors" as StreamOfTheSky suggested, but then you would have the problem to adapt that to a square grid.
You can get an approximation of that finding the final point of the creature movement sung the method that Driver 325 suggested and then moving the target there along a straight line and not along two different movement paths, but again you have the problem of the square grid. Almost certainly your target would still move in a strange way unless the two vector are at 90° of each other. Someone would have to choose in which square he would move at each step of his movement, and if that is a good way to generate infinite discussions at the table.

The shield slam on a charge+ramming shield idea is questionable. It could work only because the ramming ability is badly written and don't say that you have to take your swift action bull rush immediately after hitting with the shield slam during a charge.

Sequence of events:
1) charge,
2) shield bash when you reach the target
3) bull rush from your Shield Slam feat
4) the target move (the movement is a direct effect of your attack and happens as soon as you hit the target)
5) you can take your bonus shield bash from the ramming ability as a swift action but first you must resolve the previous action
6) bull rush say "You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so." so, if you have enough movement you can follow the target.
7) when the target stop, thanks to the hole in the ramming ability description, if you are in range, you can use the swift action bull rush granted by the shield.
But even with that hole, you aren't adding the effect of two bull rushes together, you are resolving two separated bull rush.


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Driver 325 yards wrote:
Assume I could for sake of argument. How far would the person travel?
If my beard were made of green spinach, how much iron would it contain?

What do you mean, "if"?

Liberty's Edge

LOL. But yours seem to be made more of white spinach.


Diego Rossi wrote:


The shield slam on a charge+ramming shield idea is questionable. It could work only because the ramming ability is badly written and don't say that you have to take your swift action bull rush immediately after hitting with the shield slam during a charge.

Sequence of events:
1) charge,
2) shield bash when you reach the target
3) bull rush from your Shield Slam feat
4) the target move (the movement is a direct effect of your attack and happens as soon as you hit the target)
5) you can take your bonus shield bash from the ramming ability as a swift action but first you must resolve the previous action
6) bull rush say "You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so." so, if you have enough movement you can follow the target.
7) when the target stop, thanks to the hole in the ramming ability description, if you are in range, you can use the swift action bull rush granted by the shield.
But even with that hole, you aren't adding the...

Yes, I already know that you believe that the math is too hard. I wanted to address your sequence though. Just so that we are on the same page, the sequence would go as follows:

1) charge
2) shield bash
3) bull rush with ramming effect as a swift
4) bull rush with shield bash as a free action

Nothing stops you from doing the swift action bull rush before the free action bull rush that I know of. So you have two bull rushes back to back. This is obviously quite different from the bull rush sequence you describe.

Liberty's Edge

PRD wrote:

Shield Slam (Combat)

In the right position, your shield can be used to send opponents flying.

Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat). This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance. You may choose to move with your target if you are able to take a 5-foot step or to spend an action to move this turn.

Read the feat. The bull rush get from the shield bash isn't a free action [it is free, not a free action]. It isn't even an action. It is part of the shield bash action you do, it even use the same attack roll.

So you can't take it later, after the swift action, you take it as part of the shield bash.

When you try this kind tricks read the rules carefully.


Free and free action are the same thing. Otherwise, accepting you interpretation would mean that a person who takes the shield slam feat is forever forced to perform a bull rush after a shield slam. Feats add options to a character, they don't force options onto a person.

Anyway, after reading what a swift action is (basically an immediate action that occurs on your turn, you could perform the ramming effect bull rush as a swift action immediately after the free bull rush and before the target is pushed back.

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