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I am playing through Rise of the Rune Lords. We walked into the room with Malfeshnekor in it and after savaging one of the players he ran out of the room and out of the dungeon. My GM told us that he was supposed to be trapped in the room but he let him out so that he wouldn’t slaughter the party.
I have mixed feelings about this. First, Yay I am not dead. I was freaking out there for a second. Second, Holy balls, doesn’t this mean we just released a really powerful SOB into the world. Third doesn’t the fact that he could have escaped anytime the door was opened radically change the narrative of the story so far? Fourth this kinda takes some of the danger out of the game. If we had a TPK we could have rerolled characters and started the second section with new characters we had killed the aasimar girl.
Thoughts?
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Sometimes GMing is like being a magician. The magic goes away if you show what's behind the curtain.
Even if he didn't have a reason in mind for Malfeshnekor to leave right then except for not wanting to kill the party, he could have come up with one later. LE creatures are all about catches and mysterious overplots.
Instead, he told you that he fudged it in your favor, taking away the sense of challenge, danger, and accomplishment. Plus yes, he's going to have to scramble a little with the plot.
Whenever possible, don't fudge the plots for your players. Don't fudge the rolls. And if you don't want to kill the players and you do re-write something, don't point it out!
I disagree. The dice are a tool, as is the monster statistics. But the GM is the storyteller. You don't let the dice tell the story for you. You let the dice ASSIST you in telling the story... but if you want the story to follow a certain path? Let it.
As the GM, I watched as the group buffed their Barbarian warrior to go into combat against Mal. And then I saw the dice choose to screw with him. After a couple initial hits? Blink kept him safe for round after round after round of combat. He'd have died rounds earlier. The only thing hitting him was the Cleric's Spiritual Hammer... because the Cleric had read a scroll to detect invisibility.
Seeing the Barbarian was fading fast, I sent in Shalelu to attack as well in hand-to-hand, despite that being something she'd normally not do. As Barghasts have a hate-on for elves, Mal switched from the nearly-dead Barbarian to the munchy elf. And then a lucky unfudged roll from the GMPC with Shocking Grasp took Mal down the rest of the way.
The dice were telling a different story than I was interested in. They said "the Barbarian dies" despite the fact I liked the story the Barbarian had been developing (a scholarly Barbarian who is into Thassilonian lore). So I chose as the GM to go a different path.
Your GM chose rather than let Mal kill your group off to have him escape. This does two things. First, it allows the Barghast to become a recurring foe (something that is written into the module for other characters... including Nualia). Second, it allows your group to continue their tale.
Here's one last thing to consider. If you had new characters, why would they care about Sandpoint? Why would they be interested in Thistletop? You had invested in these characters. You created backgrounds for them (I trust), you roleplayed with them, you developed connections with Sandpoint itself. If they die... all that work is gone. And while one character dying is one thing... losing an entire group is far different.
So really, don't think you can't die off. If you do something stupid the GM may very well let you die. He'll probably try not to kill the entire group... but one or two deaths can and likely will happen. That's how a good GM rolls.
BTW, the door was locked, SCPRedMage. It could be suggested that the key combined with the age of the wards allowed Mal to break loose at that point. And Mal will likely initially go off to build a powerbase somewhere as the PCs COULD still be a threat. Besides, Barghasts like toying with goblins.
The problem, Ximen, is that the party gets plenty of info telling them that Malfeshnekor is trapped in there, and that as soon as Nualia can get him out, they're off to go sack Sandpoint.
Him simply being able to walk out of the room at any point the door is open, while the door isn't even LOCKED, is somewhat... well, odd, to put it mildly. If this was the case, why hasn't Nualia simply opened the door and let him out? I mean, they both serve the Mother of Monsters, and are explicitly aligned with one another, so she has literally NOTHING stopping her, if it were that simple...
Like I said, it'll require some plot scrambling, but just because there's nothing stopping her normally, doesn't means there's no additional variables since the GM is rewriting things.
The problem, Ximen, is that the party gets plenty of info telling them that Malfeshnekor is trapped in there, and that as soon as Nualia can get him out, they're off to go sack Sandpoint.
Him simply being able to walk out of the room at any point the door is open, while the door isn't even LOCKED, is somewhat... well, odd, to put it mildly. If this was the case, why hasn't Nualia simply opened the door and let him out? I mean, they both serve the Mother of Monsters, and are explicitly aligned with one another, so she has literally NOTHING stopping her, if it were that simple...
This part could be easily fixed, by, say, deciding that the door could only be opened by a good-aligned character, or if a good-aligned character was willingly present, or that the effect keeping him trapped within would be broken if a good-aligned character stepped through the door.
Edit: Or something else that makes sense in context of who originally trapped Malfeshnekor. It can be fixed, is the point :)
Yes it's a plot hole, no it's not a major one.
Yes your DM should have let the outsider kill your characters, because in order to TPK from that encounter the party should either be a)stupid*, b)very very badly built or c)both.
*seriously, how can you not figured out (even by running away) that the scary outsider demon-dog-thingy can't leave the room?
@Are
I don't think that this excuse can work in the context of greedy thassilonian wizards.
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You know, sentiments like this are why I don't play in games anymore, only GM them. It's a control thing, yes, but it's also because I've been in games where the GM was a dick who forced things down players' throats. I once had a character die and was told to start off at 1st level - despite everyone else being a minimum of 7th level, and quite a few in their teens. (I rolled up a stack of characters because I knew. I went through half of them. What I should have done was stood up, said "f##k this, f##k your game, and f##k you," and walked out. If I wasn't stuck at Amherst until the other players in my group were finished playing hours later, I'd have done just that.)
The reason for playing the game IS TO HAVE FUN. Wiping out an entire party because "they didn't think of retreating" isn't fun (unless you're playing Paranoia, Call of Cthulhu, or a specific scenario in which the players know they're not going to get out alive). It's the GM having a power trip and abusing his players.
I prefer a different path. It's more fun for my players... and you know something? I enjoy myself much more as well. :)
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That is a good philosophy to have and one I try to keep in my practice as GM. The only thing that I still have trouble with is when someone's idea of fun, makes the game not fun for other players or myself, as a GM.
I find that if I am happy, I do a better job as GM, but also too, I find, if my players are not happy, then I am not happy.
It's a vicious cycle! :p
I warn my players ahead of time OOC when they're entering the Danger Zone, so that they can have backup characters at hand and mentally brace for character loss should they decide their characters would venture forward.
Which reminds me, I have an email to send. :)
@Tangent101
I don't know if your last post was aimed at me but if it was:
I never have my players start at a lower level than the rest of the party*, always at the same as the rest (and i try very hard to give him equally the same wealth).
No your character wouldn't have died because you didn't think of retreating your character died becuase the party didn't think of retreating and/or because the party couldn't figure out that there was something special with that door (that really seems very different than the rest) and never checked the magic on it** and/or the party wasn't good enough to actually defeat it.
So yes, if a party is that bad i prefer to have PC deaths or even a TPK now that both the characters and the story is fresh, so that the players can make a better party, so they don't have deaths or TPK later in the game where it's usually a lot harder to introduce a new PC and the players are (most likely) more invested in their PCs.
In summary i prefer to make the game a little worse early on in order to make the better later.
*that's just idiotic in my opinion, because the character starting at a lower level than the rest because of dying has more chances to die again.
**Just for the record my party managed to both learn about the magic that kept the Malfeshnekor inside the room and defeat him just fine, but then again the party managed to defeat Xanesha (the original) without a single death. So i guess that my views might not apply to all groups.
Disclaimer: The above do not apply if you have new (to tabletops) player(s).
Yes, my comments were meant somewhat toward you and toward similar sentiments I've heard multiple times from multiple sources in the forums. My apologies if I sounded squirrely; insufficient sleep, several energy drinks and cups of coffee, and the weather were factors.
As for your comments... I prefer to be very cautious as to situations that would allow a TPK or even character death in general until characters are over level 7. The reason for this is simple: Once you have a level 7 Druid or level 9 Cleric, death is but a brief delay. My players know (and are told) that the kid gloves do come off at that point.
And I've had experiences, both positive and negative, with character death. The positive was with higher-level characters... in a game where I didn't allow resurrections due to the thematic nature of the game (the God of Healing was killed by the three children of the Goddess of Death, and until she found a way to restore the mantle of the God of Healing to another worthy entity, she would do the healing... but not allow death to be reversed). After going on a quest, the group was able to empower the scroll of the dead God of Healing to bring back their fallen comrade.
Ironically, the same group (in a different, lower-level campaign) came to blows with me when, after warning them I was not going to be gentle, I killed a character by legitimately dropping him to -9 hit points and then having him drop to -10 the next round. This caused an outcry because the Paladin did a double-move to reach him and then argued the rules with me that he should be able to lay-on-hands. (That was, in fact, the last game with that group. Soon after, two of the players rolled a critical failure in their marriage; she was given half the group in the separation and divorce, he was giving a burnt-out GM (me) and the one female player the rest of them disliked.)
No apologies needed, i also wasn't on my best when i read your post (though it was alcohol for me).
I also had both positive and negative experiences with character death, i also had group breakdown (although the reasons were nothing compared to a divorce), but as you can see i have reached to a different opinion than you.
I hope that you understand that our goal is the same, to make the better and more fun for everyone, we just use different methods to get there.
My group got their bottoms handed to them three times by Malfeshnakor. Multiple characters unconscious, spellcasters exhausted, morale in the dumper. The third time they finally finished him off (because he only heals his hit dice overnight), just barely.
The funny thing? It never occurred to anyone in the group that he was trapped in that room. They never backed off enough for that to become evident. (Well, except the two times they backed off for the night.) That's with seven players. SEVEN.
One thing I've learned after suffering a number of TPKs as a player is that what is obvious to the writer and DM is not necessarily obvious to the player. I won't shy away from killing a PC if the situation calls for it, or even a TPK, but I'm always conscious of stuff like this. Running away may never be considered an option... no, the players may think they'll get chased to death. They thought he was so powerful that he was able to toy with them.
I wouldn't've let him loose but there's still some useful points in the thread.
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@Anguish: You have good points, but that habit is what I am trying to break with my characters. That sometimes it is better to give up, and fight again another day, or run away...
It makes for better story, and allows for scenes that are not possible otherwise.
Plus, it is nice to give your PCs a chance to see how much they can kick A even without their magic items against minions.
You have to allow your players to feel like heroes before you throw them up against the wall of crazy death! :p
At least, that is the philosophy that I try to have when approaching the fine art of GMing.
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I'v let Malfeshnekor on rampage honestly, even leaving the room (he would have started eating the dropped players otherwise which I didn't consider fun at that moment) and the battle was pretty epic. There was literally one man standing at end with Malfeshnekor being at 1-2 hp left and he couldn't hurt him since he had "defenses" so he used Hero Point to heal and raise up the party wizard who blasted him with his last spell down.
Players still talk about that epic fight.
I'v let Malfeshnekor on rampage honestly, even leaving the room (he would have started eating the dropped players otherwise which I didn't consider fun at that moment) and the battle was pretty epic. There was literally one man standing at end with Malfeshnekor being at 1-2 hp left and he couldn't hurt him since he had "defenses" so he used Hero Point to heal and raise up the party wizard who blasted him with his last spell down.
Players still talk about that epic fight.
I congratulate you for making an epic and memorable fight for you and your players but it's still a plot hole.
PS. No irony or condescension intented.
Gamemasters are wise to NEVER let the players know they "gave 'em a break". That gives the players the feeling that they'll be rescued when they get in too deep.
Given the circumstances described, as Mal left the area, I'd have had him soliloquize "At last, through your ignorant meddling, the curse of 10,000 years has been lifted! I shall soon regain my full powers! Goodbye, fools! When next we meet, I shall devour your very souls!"
I'd follow that by allowing some Spellcraft rolls or Knowledge (arcana) checks that would reveal how some recent action on their part had shattered the ancient binding that held the barghest. If only they had stopped to read the warning script (somewhere nearby)... (Sigh!)
I find that when faced with a monster trapped in a room, & capable of taking out the whole party, the best way to avoid a tpk is step out of the room.
To Sir_Wulf, I wouldn't say "never." It all depends on context and expectations. Just recently while running the beginning of Kingmaker, I told them afterward I pulled out a few punches. Main factor? Some were 12 years old and were new to tabletop games. They also had invested significant time into their back stories and this was only our second session. I said this was their "warning" and since they were new to their characters and didn't fully know their own abilities, I made clear that I gave them a pass, but that later on, once they had some experience, I would not play nice :).
Two of the other kids who have played under me and seen me kill their characters nodded and said, "Yes, he will!" That adjusted their expectations, shall we say!
Character deaths and TPKs all depend on context. The same death, with one player who had no idea what they were signing up for when they'd entered my game, leads to bitterness and arguments. In another context, after expectations have been properly calibrated, the same thing can add to the experience and thrill of the game.
In the situation in the OP, IF it had been clear to the players from the beginning that the barghest couldn't leave the room, I would have been not as gentle. Then they should have figured out how to use ranged tactics.
When I actually ran this encounter, the kid who would later give the warning above had actually sneaked into the room alone and was caught flat-footed by the barghest. The party saw it had damage reduction -- they hadnt invested in magic weapons -- and immediately thought they had no chance. They bargained with it saying they would leave it alone. The barghest, knowing it could not follow them out the room, figured that was a fine arrangement and told them to "leave my complex." So now they have appropriated the fort with a big monster in the basement. They still don't know why it stays down there! :)
I honestly don't know why anyone believes the Barghest is "stuck" in the room. Once they unlocked it, as far as they know it's been freed. The only reason they'd NOT know this is because it doesn't chase them out of the room IF they retreated.
That said... we've all been running the Barghest incorrectly. I realize this after running the encounter... and after looking at what other people said about it. The room is too small for the Barghest to remain in its natural form. It will take damage from the fire pit. Thus it should transform itself into one of its other smaller forms, such as the goblin or wolf (and in wolf form it retains its bite attack and thus its greater damage).
So either you have it turn into the larger monster... and start taking fire damage each round... or have it stay smaller and be less lethal. It is still quite dangerous considering that Blink and other abilities will make it quite difficult to kill... but it'll be dishing out less damage as a result and the PCs may very well not know what they're dealing with.
You can even have it turn big one round to cause mayhem and then wincing from the fire shrink... or force itself into the smaller area and take penalties to its armor class and attacks.
I honestly don't know why anyone believes the Barghest is "stuck" in the room. Once they unlocked it, as far as they know it's been freed. The only reason they'd NOT know this is because it doesn't chase them out of the room IF they retreated.
That said... we've all been running the Barghest incorrectly. I realize this after running the encounter... and after looking at what other people said about it. The room is too small for the Barghest to remain in its natural form. It will take damage from the fire pit. Thus it should transform itself into one of its other smaller forms, such as the goblin or wolf (and in wolf form it retains its bite attack and thus its greater damage).
So either you have it turn into the larger monster... and start taking fire damage each round... or have it stay smaller and be less lethal. It is still quite dangerous considering that Blink and other abilities will make it quite difficult to kill... but it'll be dishing out less damage as a result and the PCs may very well not know what they're dealing with.
You can even have it turn big one round to cause mayhem and then wincing from the fire shrink... or force itself into the smaller area and take penalties to its armor class and attacks.
Or it could levitate and mess the party up from the ceiling.
You mean attack while "standing" on the ceiling? I'd give it a penalty to hit in that case because it's attacking from a position that it is not used to. Even if it's just a -1. Alternatively if it's levitating a foot off the ground, then after its first hit it suffers increasing penalties to hit, I believe, because of its inherent instability.
Really, it's much easier for it to go wolf and attack that way. Hell, if you really wanted to have fun, have it turn itself into a goblin, raid the chest with the magic ring (so it has some armor), grapple with someone to steal their weapon, and then go to town using the group's own melee weapon. ;)
"How is this damn goblin doing this to us? Gah! Retreat! Retreat! Oh good, it's not following us... GAH!" *Crushing Despair*
You mean attack while "standing" on the ceiling? I'd give it a penalty to hit in that case because it's attacking from a position that it is not used to. Even if it's just a -1. Alternatively if it's levitating a foot off the ground, then after its first hit it suffers increasing penalties to hit, I believe, because of its inherent instability.
I'll give him a +1 for attacking from a higher position :P
So you're going to take a foe that has caused multiple Total Party Kills and make it even deadlier. Well done. I'm sure you'll be putting a TPK on the Obituary Thread in a bit.
So you're going to take a foe that has caused multiple Total Party Kills and make it even deadlier. Well done. I'm sure you'll be putting a TPK on the Obituary Thread in a bit.
The :P in the end was meant to be an indicative of a joking sentence ;)
Huh. I'd forgotten to double-check the map from when I ran it and was thinking of what other posters had said.
My bad!
This does, however, emphasize one important thing about the game: you should use maps and counters, miniatures or something to represent players and monsters. That way you KNOW where people can go and where critters can go as well.
Here's an interesting question to consider: can the Barghast physically attack outside the doors? Its spells can reach apparently (which seems odd that a Hedging Binding would allow spells to exit it but the combat section rules stated it's doable) but as it can't leave the room physically... at what point does its claws end? At the doors? Or beyond it? It does have reach as a Large monster....
Here's an interesting question to consider: can the Barghast physically attack outside the doors? Its spells can reach apparently (which seems odd that a Hedging Binding would allow spells to exit it but the combat section rules stated it's doable) but as it can't leave the room physically... at what point does its claws end? At the doors? Or beyond it? It does have reach as a Large monster....
Does it? I thought it was a quadrupedal large creature. Those doesn't have reach, unless specifically stated in their stat block.
I would rule that he can't leave the room, but he can attack to people standing next to the door. Not that it matters, though, as he can Charm Monster them and lure into the room...
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Good points in spades here.
The story never tells us exactly how he is trapped, or how Nualia expects to be able to free him. Except for the tactics blurb I'd agree that it isn't obvious.
As for a plot hole, I am not sure I agree. What's he going to do, exactly? And for how much longer is he even going to remain a threat to the party? I suspect that if he got cleanly away and was never heard from again that the players may well forget. There's some stuff about to happen that's probably more important...
In that Mal was imprisoned by Karzoug's agents, he has a downer on Karzoug. So he might end up leading an army of goblins to attack Mokmurian. I shall leave it as an exercise for the reader to see how that pans out.