This evening, our game ground to a halt over the precise understanding of how cleaving finish can be used - and whether or not, when a player killed an opponent who moved through their threatened space, with an attack of opportunity strike, whether he was also then allowed to attack another opponent, who had not moved/ done anything, but who was within range of his reach weapon, with 'Cleaving Finish'.
Which rule has primacy? My view was that the text of the AoO rules has supremacy over the Cleaving Finish - but I could well be wrong.
AoO state:
"An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you"
and later - as regards Combat reflexes -
"Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity".....
Thus you cannot make more than one attack per opportunity - and can only take an AoO on an opponent who is taking certain actions in your threatened square
BUT Cleaving Finish states:
"If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat."
Thus......
Can Cleaving Finish be used as an AoO against a foe within your threatened squares but who has not done anything to provoke an AoO?
My view is no.... but the player in my gang was adamant that I am wrong!!
Has there been an official ruling on this or is this a house rule situation?
Your player is right. The extra attack from Cleaving Finish is not an opportunity attack, so there's no "conflict of primacy".
Cleaving Finish is not an Attack of Opportunity, so whether or not the adjacent foe triggered an AoO is moot. It triggers off of a melee attack, which is what an AoO is. And, thematically, it sounds pretty awesome. So long as the character is not exceeding the once per round limitation, it should work.
I agree with Pupsocket and your player. There is no reason that the additional attack would be an opportunity attack that I can see.
I agree with Pupsocket and your player. There is no reason that the additional attack would be an opportunity attack that I can see.
Thanks for your input - but I still am doubtful since the Cleaving Finish action is taking place within an Attack of Opportunity action in effect - on someone who has not threatened/ provoked an AoO.....
If it was a cleaving finish on someone else who was threatening/ provoking the AoO this would be fine/ clear.... surely?
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PF's 'Cleaving Finish' is effectively how the D&D 3E version of 'Cleave' used to work (a free attack, after downing a foe).
Cleave was reworked in PF Core (a double-swinging combat style you committed yourself to before attacking), to be of more use to higher-level meleeists who were facing less and less enemies who were one-shot kills, and to help with the problem of losing attacks when moving over 5 feet.
As such, the interpretation by your player is how D&D 3E 'Cleaves' used to be triggered from successful AoO. And as such, is a valid use of PF 'Cleaving Finish'.
PF's 'Cleaving Finish' is effectively how the D&D 3E version of 'Cleave' used to work (a free attack, after downing a foe).
Cleave was reworked in PF Core (a double-swinging combat style you committed yourself to before attacking), to be of more use to higher-level meleeists who were facing less and less enemies who were one-shot kills, and to help with the problem of losing attacks when moving over 5 feet.As such, the interpretation by your player is how D&D 3E 'Cleaves' used to be triggered from successful AoO. And as such, is a valid use of PF 'Cleaving Finish'.
Certainly - I agree on reflection- it is fun, empowers the pc to use their feat, keeps combat flowing.
I am still uncertain if the AoO rules allow a non-AoO provoking combatant to then be attacked in this action - but - what the hell. This game is far too legalistic for me - and on reflection I should have put FUN before nit-picking over what can / can't be done in an AoO.
Thanks for the background on the origins of CF. 'preciated. :)
The attack from cleaving finish isn't the same action as the AoO. It's a seperate action triggered because of the resolution of the first.
Cleaving Finish triggers off dropping your to 0 or below HP with a melee attack, which an AoO is. Now, he can't do it more than once per round, so it isn't too devastating and can't trigger off of itself. The Cleaving Finish attack can be made at anyone within range, regardless of the fact that it triggered off an AoO.
Granted, perhaps if the RAI was to have CF only available on your turn, it should get errata'd appropriately. As is, it simply triggers whenever you drop a foe, regardless of how.
Yes, Cleaving Finish can activate off of the melee attack from an Attack of Opportunity.
Sorted then!! Thanks!!