To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
-The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
-The user must have the spell on her class list.
-The user must have the requisite ability score.
Suppose a summoner with 12 Cha finds a scroll of Haste scribed by a 5th level wizard. Can the summoner use the scroll (without using UMD, etc.)? A Cha of 12 is enough for a summoner to cast Haste, but it's not enough to cast 3rd level spells and Haste is a 3rd level wizard spell.
(Don't need answer fast, just curious how other people would rule.)
The summoner needs to have haste as a spell on their known spells list. If you do not, then you will have to use UMD I believe.
A Charisma of 12 is not high enough to cast Haste. You would need to UMD it.
Haste is a second-level spell for summoners, so a summoner with 12 Charisma can certainly cast Haste as a summoner spell. He wouldn't necessarily be able to cast the wizard spell Haste, of course.
But scrolls aren't broken into "summoner scrolls" and "wizard scrolls"; they're all just arcane scrolls.
There is already a lot of misniformation on this thread, in just a few posts, so here is what you need to know:
To activate a spell from a scroll:
1) The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
2) The user must have the spell on her class list.
3) The user must have the requisite ability score.
So for the summoner:
1) The scroll must be Arcane. It obviously is. Check.
2) Haste must be on the summoner class list. Note, the summoner does not need to personally know Haste, it only needs to be on his class list. It is a level 2 summoner spell. Check.
3) The summoner must have a CHA capable of casting level 2 spells. This summoner has a CHA of 12, exactly what he needs. Check.
So the summoner can use this spell from the scroll with no difficulty.
[..]
3) The user must have the requisite ability score.So for the summoner:
[..]
3) The summoner must have a CHA capable of casting level 2 spells. This summoner has a CHA of 12, exactly what he needs. Check.
The snag, of course, is that it just says "requisite ability score" without saying what it's the requisite for. Casting the spell in general? Casting this particular version of the spell? Something else?
(I agree that yours is the most logical explanation, but I don't think it's exactly cut and dried.)
This is what happens when you have spells that exist on multiple spell lists at varying levels. ;) PFS deals with this by stating that all scrolls are created by specific classes.
The real question that you're asking, then, is something like:
When scroll use notes a "requisite ability score", is that the ability score required to cast the spell as it exists on your class's spell list, or as it exists on the spell list of the creator of the scroll?
Example, of course, would be Haste.
Since the creator of the scroll is usually unknown, I would say the former. I've never seen a published adventure that lists "a scroll of haste scribed by a sorcerer" or "a scroll of cure moderate wounds scribed by a druid." Even when the chamber in question was a druid's library.
ETA, I appear to have responded to a deleted post. But it's a good post and phrases the question well.
That's part of the... um... disgruntlement some folks have with summoners; they're "partial casters" who only have up to 6th-level spells, but a bunch of those spells are actually much more powerful spells that have been squeezed down in level just so summoners can have them (certain 9th-level spells are now '6th level'!) It's created a bit of a furor, since it affects the creation and purchase costs of several arcane scrolls, wands, and various other items...
You left out potions.
And it plays merry hell with the costs and usefulness of the metamagic rods as well.
I don't think summoner in particular is any worse than some of the other issues (lesser restoration at first level for a wand-crafting paladin)? But it's certainly no better, either.
@Orfamay: It showed on my screen that it double-posted, and so I deleted one - and apparently it was really the only one.
So to restate:
This is what happens when you have spells that exist on multiple spell lists at varying levels. ;) PFS deals with this by stating that all scrolls are created by specific classes.
The real question that you're asking, then, is something like:
When scroll use notes a "requisite ability score", is that the ability score required to cast the spell as it exists on your class's spell list, or as it exists on the spell list of the creator of the scroll?
Example, of course, would be Haste.
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The real question that you're asking, then, is something like:
When scroll use notes a "requisite ability score", is that the ability score required to cast the spell as it exists on your class's spell list, or as it exists on the spell list of the creator of the scroll?
To be super-specific:
When scroll use notes a "requisite ability score", is that the ability score required to cast the level of spell as it exists on your class's spell list, or the level of spell as it exists on the spell list of the creator of the scroll?
I'm going to have to disagree with Blake on this one (just in part).
The summoner could use possibly use a scroll of Haste, but he can't use this scroll of haste, because it is a 3rd level spell, in fact, on the scroll. That requires a 13 Cha or Int.
Similarly, an 11 Cha Oracle could cast a Paladin's scroll of lesser restoration, but not Cleric's or Oracle's scroll of lesser restoration. Scrolls do not have any inherent spell list associated with them, and in PFS they don't even have arcane/divine, but they always have spell level (could matter for things like Lesser Globe of Invulnerability).
Bonus question:
Gandalf is a 15th level wizard and Simon is a 16th level summoner. Gandalf has the feat Extend Spell and the trait Magical Lineage (Incendiary Cloud) and he decides to make a scroll of Extended Incendiary Cloud (which takes up an 8th level spell slot for Gandalf). Then he gives the scroll to Simon.
What is the minimum Charisma score that Simon needs in order to use the scroll of Extended Incendiary Cloud?
(a) 16
(b) 17
(c) 18
(d) 19
(e) none of the above
;-)
Do I get 15 points for writing my name on the test sheet?
Scrolls are not listed as "Scroll of Summoner Haste" or "Scroll of Paladin Lessor Restoration". They are just arcane or divine. Period. Therefore, your ability to cast a scroll has nothing to do with who wrote it. It doesn't matter if the Haste spell is written by a wizard, bard, sorcerer, witch, or summoner, or any archtype, or whatever. It's still just Arcane Haste and you can use the scroll normally if you are an arcane caster with Haste on your class list and whatever ability score YOU use is high enough to cast Haste the way your class does.
When Paizo starts publishing adventures with treasures such as scrolls of "Summoner Haste", etc., then I'll worry about whether each spell is written differently by everybody who creates a scroll. Until then, it's very obvious that this is not the case.
Haste is Haste.
Scrolls are not listed as "Scroll of Summoner Haste" or "Scroll of Paladin Lessor Restoration". They are just arcane or divine. Period.
At the very least, a CL 5 summoner scroll of Haste would have a different price/cost from a CL 5 wizard scroll. So if you're reading an adventure that says "a scroll of Haste worth 375 gp", by definition it's not a summoner-scribed scroll.
When Paizo starts publishing adventures with treasures such as scrolls of "Summoner Haste", etc., then I'll worry about whether each spell is written differently by everybody who creates a scroll.
I don't think Paizo even bothers with the arcane/divine distinction most of the time. I agree that most of the time it doesn't matter, of course, so it's safe to assume that most scrolls are made by wizards or clerics (which is what happens, IMO). Of course, that results in a little weirdness if wizards or clerics aren't the users...
Blake is correct. Otherwise bards would have similar issues. There is also and foremost the fact that the rules call out caster type. not caster class .
... 3) The summoner must have a CHA capable of casting level 2 spells. This summoner has a CHA of 12, exactly what he needs. Check.So the summoner can use this spell from the scroll with no difficulty.
I'm learning up on scrolls right now, and I keep seeing this type of stuff everywhere, saying casters need a CHA or WIS score to cast certain spells. Where is this in the CRB?
Where do I find these "requisite ability scores" mentioned in the scrolls section? Is this something different than the caster level?
Someone else mentioned Haste requiring a CHA or INT score of 13. How do you know this? I feel like I'm missing out on a big part of spell-casting!
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It's an extension of the rules for spellcasting in general. Every spellcasting class has a piece of text like this:
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric's spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric's Wisdom modifier.
I keep seeing this type of stuff everywhere, saying casters need a CHA or WIS score to cast certain spells. Where is this in the CRB?Here for casting from a Scroll. Oddly enough, the rule that you need a minimum Ability Score to cast spells altogether isn't a generic magic rule, but gets repeated in the class descriptions. So for instance:
To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.
Where do I find these "requisite ability scores" mentioned in the scrolls section? Is this something different than the caster level?You can't find it directly.
- You have to check the Class' spell list, to see at which level it gets the spell in question.
- Then you have to check which Ability Score that Class actually uses to cast.
- And then you need to see if the Ability Score of the PC is greater or equal to the Spell Level + 10.
Someone else mentioned Haste requiring a CHA or INT score of 13. How do you know this?
Most Classes that have Haste on their Spell List, get it as a third level spell. So a Sorcerer (who casts using Charisma) needs a minimum of 3 + 10 = 13 to cast the spell from a scroll. And a Wizard needs an Intelligence that high for the same reason.
I feel like I'm missing out on a big part of spell-casting!
Possibly, but don't sweat it. Just work your way through the options, and don't hesitate to ask "stupid" questions.
Potions are the simplest items to get the hang of. Then Scrolls, Wands... and then it gets really messy...
Thank you!! This is precisely what I needed. Curious why they put it in the class section and nowhere in the magic/spells/items/scrolls/etc. questions.