Archery Items

[CWheezy]

Oil of daylight only works in supernatural darkness when you can find what they cast darkness on

[Haco]

Sorry a couple of questions plz:

Why all the archers buy a darkwood composite longbow, what properties has this material, why not a normal compostie longbow?

Efficient quiver is a named magic item can any buy him in PFS if you don't have them in any of your chronicle sheets?

Is best precise shot or rapid shot for an elf sorcerer archer?

Thanks for all!!

[CWheezy]

Precise shot first, then rapid shot

[SCPRedMage]

Haco wrote:

Sorry a couple of questions plz:

Why all the archers buy a darkwood composite longbow, what properties has this material, why not a normal compostie longbow?

People usually suggest buying your composite bow using prestige; 2 PP will allow you, once per session, to get an item worth up to 750gp for free, which will cover a darkwood composite longbow with a +3 Strength rating (which costs 730gp).

Since darkwood weighs half as much, and it costs 2 PP either way, you might as well get the special material one.

Personally, my arcane archer spent 2PP to get a GREENWOOD composite longbow with a +2 Strength rating (750gp), so that it can heal itself after being sundered.

Haco wrote:

Efficient quiver is a named magic item can any buy him in PFS if you don't have them in any of your chronicle sheets?

Since it's from the Core Rulebook, so long as you have access to it somehow (either via a chronicle sheet, or by having at least 13 fame), you can purchase it.

Haco wrote:

Is best precise shot or rapid shot for an elf sorcerer archer?

Let me answer that with a question: which is better, one hit, or two misses? If you take Precise Shot, you'll get one shot with no penalty, and if you take Rapid Shot, you get two shots, each with a -6 penalty.

[N N 959]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Personally, my arcane archer spent 2PP to get a GREENWOOD composite longbow with a +2 Strength rating (750gp)

yeah, I went that route myself.

SCPRedMage wrote:

Haco wrote:

Is best precise shot or rapid shot for an elf sorcerer archer?

Let me answer that with a question: which is better, one hit, or two misses? If you take Precise Shot, you'll get one shot with no penalty, and if you take Rapid Shot, you get two shots, each with a -6 penalty.

There's little bit more to that analysis. The penalty for not having PS can be overcome through tactics. If the fighter attacks and then takes a 5' step back, you have no penalty. If someone is simply NOT in melee, you have no penalty. And I think that for Large creatures, you can also avoid the penalty if the positioning is right.

Rapid Shot cannot be worked around. There's no tactic that can give you two shots instead of one.

[SCPRedMage]

N N 959 wrote:

There's little bit more to that analysis. The penalty for not having PS can be overcome through tactics. If the fighter attacks and then takes a 5' step back, you have no penalty. If someone is simply NOT in melee, you have no penalty. And I think that for Large creatures, you can also avoid the penalty if the positioning is right.

Except that it relies on your teammates being willing to disengage from the opponent, which not only may not be possible (if they moved into melee that turn), but may not be the smart choice; remember, once they're no longer in melee, there's precious little stopping them from going after that jerk with a bow in the back.

Not to mention the fact that they may well be built as a bodyguard, or they could be built to take advantage of things like Step Up, or any number of other things that require them to be up in the enemy's face to do their job.

You should not expect the other members of the party to NOT do their thing so that you can do yours. That means if you're a ranged character, you shouldn't expect the melee characters to NOT be melee characters.

Take Precise Shot as quickly as you can.

[Luthril]

My summoner has PS, anyone who is going to be shooting things should take PS... nothing else in the game gives you a +4 to hit in a given situation... and yes you should think of it that way. This alone is why Human "Archers" get the jump on everybody else, because at level one they have PS and Point Blank with their 2 feats, even if they never took another ranged feat, they will be darn effective in a fight from 30 feet out

Efficient Quiver is GREAT, another must have, worth every penny, err copper... and ALWAYS have a Spear in there... Spears are a great backup weapon for an "archer"

Tangle Foot plus Throw Anything, because it can't come eat you if it is stuck still, and as a ranged combat guy your ranged touch should be pretty high... Holy water for kicks is also good.

Gloves of Arrow Snaring, stands to reason if you are shooting at people, they are likely to shoot back :) this gives you possible free ammo ;)

Rope of Climbing (everyone should have this) it is a 50 ft long reach out and touch something stick. great for triggering traps, saving your fallen buddy, or making a weird but effective get away.

Iron Rope (everyone should have this too!) cut off 2 feet, wrap it around the bad guy's hands, say command word. that guy is not going to bother you the rest of the scenario, and you didn't have to murder him, or "knock him out"... lots of other uses, use your imagination.

[Belafon]

CRobledo wrote:

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Remember, with composite bows, you also take a minus to hit if your strength isn't high enough.

Note this is only if you natural STR is not high enough. If your strength is lowered due to penalties like ability damage then it does not affect your ability to use a composite bow (other than the actual effects of the ability damage, such as lower ranged attack rolls if your DEX is damaged). If you use a composite bow and you take 2 STR damage, all you loose is 1 damage.

This is of course not the case for ability drain, as drain is an actual decrease of a score.

Source that please, Carlos.

Compostite Longbow wrote:

...If your Strength modifier is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it....

Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain wrote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability...

...Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.

I don't see anything there supporting the argument that you should only look at your "permanent" strength modifier. Possibly a clarification I don't know about...

[N N 959]

SCPRedMage wrote:

Except that it relies on your teammates being willing to disengage from the opponent, which not only may not be possible (if they moved into melee that turn),

Which means they delay until you fire, then you delay until they attack and move back. The following round, they delay until you fire, then they 5' step back into melee and attack. It's called tactics.

Quote:

there's precious little stopping them from going after that jerk with a bow in the back.

Any ranged attacker should make a habit of not standing in a charge line to anyone they are attacking. A simple 5' step can force someone at range to suffer AoO's to get to you.

Quote:

Not to mention the fact that they may well be built as a bodyguard, or they could be built to take advantage of things like Step Up,

Not sure what your driving at. Are you talking about NPC's or PC's? Never seen a PC with Step Up, but maybe that's a higher level thing.

Quote:

You should not expect the other members of the party to NOT do their thing so that you can do yours. That means if you're a ranged character, you shouldn't expect the melee characters to NOT be melee characters.

True. But irrelevant to the point I'm making. Nothing about what I said requires teammates not to be in melee.

Quote:

Take Precise Shot as quickly as you can.

PS avoids circumstance modifier and can be rendered needless by clever tactics. The same is not true for Rapid Shot. There is nothing you can do tactically to make up for the fact that you don't have Rapid Shot. Nothing.

Does that mean RS is better than PS? No. But an objective analysis goes deeper than claiming it gives you +4 to hit. I've seen plenty of arcane archers and ranged fighters who forgo PS and switch to a reach weapon when everyone is in melee. A polearm can be a very effective way to contribute when your target is blocked by allies.

Obviously you eventually want both, but I'd be curious to see the damage comparison of RS vs PS in the same build and same scenarios over a 10 scenario run.

[SCPRedMage]

N N 959 wrote:

Which means they delay until you fire, then you delay until they attack and move back. The following round, they delay until you fire, then they 5' step back into melee and attack. It's called tactics.

And I know a number of players who would be rather upset that you're making them jump through such hoops because you're not paying your feat tax.

N N 959 wrote:

Any ranged attacker should make a habit of not standing in a charge line to anyone they are attacking. A simple 5' step can force someone at range to suffer AoO's to get to you.

Even if they can't charge you, they can still just walk right up to you, since they're no longer being threatened.

N N 959 wrote:

Not sure what your driving at. Are you talking about NPC's or PC's? Never seen a PC with Step Up, but maybe that's a higher level thing.

By "bodyguard", I meant things like the Saving Shield and Bodyguard feats; the latter allows you to, when an enemy attacks a target that's adjacent to you, use an AoO to aid another to boost the adjacent target's AC against that attack. Seeing as the aid another action is a melee attack, that means you need to be adjacent to the enemy, too.

Basically, the role of the character is to get up in the enemy's face, in order to prevent them from hitting their allies. If they can't be adjacent to the enemy, they literally cannot perform the job they were built to do.

For the record, I've seen two of these characters at the same table, entirely by chance.

N N 959 wrote:

True. But irrelevant to the point I'm making. Nothing about what I said requires teammates not to be in melee.

Actually, yeah, you kinda DID say they shouldn't be in melee, at least when it's not their turn.

N N 959 wrote:

PS avoids circumstance modifier and can be rendered needless by clever tactics. The same is not true for Rapid Shot. There is nothing you can do tactically to make up for the fact that you don't have Rapid Shot. Nothing.

Clever tactics only works so long as the party plays along with your demands, and like I JUST said, there are builds that simply won't function as intended if they do.

Not to mention the fact that some players simply won't play along out of either stubbornness, or simply because they want to be able to make an AoO.

N N 959 wrote:

Does that mean RS is better than PS? No. But an objective analysis goes deeper than claiming it gives you +4 to hit. I've seen plenty of arcane archers and ranged fighters who forgo PS and switch to a reach weapon when everyone is in melee. A polearm can be a very effective way to contribute when your target is blocked by allies.

Obviously you eventually want both, but I'd be curious to see the damage comparison of RS vs PS in the...

Keep in mind the fact that the person who asked the question stated this was for a elven sorcerer archer; that means they have the worst BAB progression, and they're going to need a decent Cha, as well, meaning they can't dump absolutely everything into Dex. Attack bonus matters, here, and that extra -2 from Rapid Shot, by itself, is going to hurt early on.

Also, as an elven sorcerer, if you take Rapid Shot at level one, you're not going to be able to pick up Precise Shot until level five, thanks to its prerequisite.

I've seen a number of low-level archers without Precise Shot, usually because they can't get it yet.

Tangent:

And one player who COULD have, but chose not to. Of course, this was a player who told people how to play their characters (even after being told, in no uncertain terms, that this was pissing said players off), complained any time the party interfered in his attempts to basically solo everything himself (despite him being incapable of actually soloing a wet paper bag), and, in the very first time I'd ever played with him, ATTACKED the hobgoblin my character was interrogating via playing Nice Cop (aka Diplomacy) for a faction mission, and then started complaining when I got another character to Intimidate him out of the room.

Yeah... the spotlight hog stopped showing up...

Anyways, every time I've ever seen this done, it has ALWAYS been excruciating for the archer.

[Eric Saxon]

neferphras wrote:

you are correct i am asking why not allowed? It would make the archer character set more fun and not totally outclassed when compared to the always range touch gunslinger.

I play and alchemist,so i am range touch most of the time anyway, but everytime i see a ranger archer and gunslinger in a party, i feel for the archer (ranger or fighter) Gunslinger hits...pretty much always, because they are range touch. The ranger misses, a lot, because they are not, so why not give them some fun gimmick shots to compensate. Makes zero sense to me why these are not allowed.

If my GM is reading this, he's grinding his teeth. So, I'll ask you why do you think a ranged fighter is outclassed compared to a range touch gunslinger?

Here is some stats from my lvl. 7 ranged fighter.
Aasimar, Azzata Blooded
STR 14
DEX 19 (+1 for lvl. 4, +2 for DEX belt)
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 15

Longbow (+2 STR, Adaptive +3)

Feats:
Fast Learner (because adding Weapon Mastery, would be overwhelming and I didn't want that much cheese)
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Manyshot
Clustered Shots

My attacks at 30 feet are
+13/+13/+8 1d8+11

When I hit all 3 shots I'm doing 4d8+44. And when I crit just one of these shots, I do 6d8+66. This is at lvl. 7. And I rarely miss. And I don't have a problem with DR because of Clustered Shots.

So, on behalf of my GM who gives me the evil eye, for breaking the scenarios. I must ask you, what does a gunslinger do, that would make this look, underpowered? Or is it just that you've never seen a well built ranged fighter at a table?

That happens mind you, not everyone knows how to build a dangerous ranged fighter, if they lack the books or the time to read them.

[anthonydido]

Belafon wrote:

...Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.

I don't see anything there supporting the argument that you should only look at your "permanent" strength modifier. Possibly a clarification I don't know about...

Bolded mine. You missed the pertinent part of that sentence that says it actually reduces the ability score.

[CRobledo]

Belafon wrote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

Also:

Quote:

Longbow, Composite

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it...

Your strength bonus doesn't go down with ability damage. You apply a -1 penalty for every 2. For example, STR damage doesn't affect your carrying capacity.

I am pretty sure there is a black and white clarification somewhere on the forums I can scrounge up later. I'm positive this changed between 3.5 and PF.

[Hobbun]

Yes, this did change from 3.5, I'm certain on it.

But CRobledo is correct on how it works. Ability damage only gives a penalty to skill checks, attack rolls or damage, it does not lower the ability score or even the modifier.

Where with ability drain, that’s exactly what that does. It lowers not only the actual ability score, but the relevant modifier that goes with it. So if you have anything reliant on a certain modifier for that abilty score, like in our Composite Longbow example, it will affect the use of that bow with the -2 to hit. Or if you have a feat that needs a certain ability score, you would be cut off from that feat, as you no longer would qualify for the prerequisite.

[Lormyr]

Eric Saxon wrote:

If my GM is reading this, he's grinding his teeth. So, I'll ask you why do you think a ranged fighter is outclassed compared to a range touch gunslinger?

Here is some stats from my lvl. 7 ranged fighter.
Aasimar, Azzata Blooded
STR 14
DEX 19 (+1 for lvl. 4, +2 for DEX belt)
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 15

Longbow (+2 STR, Adaptive +3)

Feats:
Fast Learner (because adding Weapon Mastery, would be overwhelming and I didn't want that much cheese)
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Manyshot
Clustered Shots

My attacks at 30 feet are
+13/+13/+8 1d8+11

When I hit all 3 shots I'm doing 4d8+44. And when I crit just one of these shots, I do 6d8+66. This is at lvl. 7. And I rarely miss. And I don't have a problem with DR because of Clustered Shots.

So, on behalf of my GM who gives me the evil eye, for breaking the scenarios. I must ask you, what does a gunslinger do, that would make this look, underpowered? Or is it just that you've never seen a well built ranged fighter at a table?

That happens mind you, not everyone knows how to build a dangerous ranged fighter, if they lack the books or the time to read them.

My experience is that when comparing a well-built gunslinger against a well-built archer of any kind, all the archer will ever have over the gunslinger after 13th level is range - and let's face it, that is extremely easy to overcome for high level PCs.

Class to class, it's relatively balanced - in the favor of the archer at very low levels even. Adding in the firearm touch attacks, double attacks from a double-barreled pistol, removing missfire, and completely silly signature deed + up close and deadly shatters that relative balance, however.

I know it's a high level example, but my buddy's PFS gunslinger at 17th level is running an AC of 50, and his attack routine is vs touch to 40 feet at: +25(x2)/+25(x2)/+20(x2)/+15(x2)/+10(x2) for 1d8+30+4d6 (precision from up close and deadly). This is all before he hastes himself for 2 more attacks as well.

A zen archer can come near that damage by boosting their unarmed strike and burning ki for their class feature, but needing to hit non-touch AC tappers off the actual amount of damage they will inflict vs. the gungslinger.

Just some food for thought through example.

[neferphras]

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

For what it's worth, I have a Hawkeye-like archer in a home game with an efficient quiver and nearly every type of special arrow. So far, in three levels, I've used the following:

• Durable (these are the ones I use by default. I have all my special material arrow heads on these)
  
• Blunt (to do bludgeoning damage vs skeletons and do non-lethal at -4 penalty)
  
• Tanglefoot bolt (only twice, not very effective)
  
• Thistle (once, just to force a wizard to make concentration checks based on continuing damage)
  
• Whistling (once, to summon the guard in Magnimar--not specifically needed, but darn it, I really wanted to use one!)
  
• Raining (one fight against hordes of ghouls--I keep forgetting I have these, really)
  

I've never had occasion to use the pheromone arrow (but no animal companion), the smoke arrow, or the splintercloud arrow. The slow burn didn't seem worth the price, to me, but I have an alchemist in the party. I also didn't get the trip arrow because I have a low CMB (if I take the Agile Maneuvers feet, I'll probably pick some up). With a composite longbow, flight arrows or distance arrows are pretty pointless, but if you're using some other type of bow, you might find a use for them.

Durable and Blunt have been my bread-and-butter. Blunt and smoke arrows are available in PFS, and I think thistle are as well. The ones I really miss in PFS play are the durable ones, but I can get magic items/abundant ammunition more easily in PFS to make up for it.

Adaptive bow is definitely the must-have item. Until I can find one/have one made, my archer carries several different strength ratings of composite bows to adjust for buffs and debuffs. Remember, with composite bows, you also take a minus to hit if your strength isn't high enough. She also carries a shortbow to use while riding from place to place. (Yay, efficient quiver!)

Consider "Conserving" on the bow, also, if you don't have access to the Abundant Ammunition spell. For spells, you'll probably want Gravity Bow...

pretty sure Durable, your bread and butter as you say, is not PFS legal per this thread. It only is from the elves module.

[neferphras]

Lormyr wrote:

Eric Saxon wrote:

If my GM is reading this, he's grinding his teeth. So, I'll ask you why do you think a ranged fighter is outclassed compared to a range touch gunslinger?

Here is some stats from my lvl. 7 ranged fighter.
Aasimar, Azzata Blooded
STR 14
DEX 19 (+1 for lvl. 4, +2 for DEX belt)
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 15

Longbow (+2 STR, Adaptive +3)

Feats:
Fast Learner (because adding Weapon Mastery, would be overwhelming and I didn't want that much cheese)
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Deadly Aim
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus (Longbow)
Manyshot
Clustered Shots

My attacks at 30 feet are
+13/+13/+8 1d8+11

When I hit all 3 shots I'm doing 4d8+44. And when I crit just one of these shots, I do 6d8+66. This is at lvl. 7. And I rarely miss. And I don't have a problem with DR because of Clustered Shots.

So, on behalf of my GM who gives me the evil eye, for breaking the scenarios. I must ask you, what does a gunslinger do, that would make this look, underpowered? Or is it just that you've never seen a well built ranged fighter at a table?

That happens mind you, not everyone knows how to build a dangerous ranged fighter, if they lack the books or the time to read them.

My experience is that when comparing a well-built gunslinger against a well-built archer of any kind, all the archer will ever have over the gunslinger after 13th level is range - and let's face it, that is extremely easy to overcome for high level PCs.

Class to class, it's relatively balanced - in the favor of the archer at very low levels even. Adding in the firearm touch attacks, double attacks from a double-barreled pistol, removing missfire, and completely silly signature deed + up close and deadly shatters that relative balance, however.

I know it's a high level example, but my buddy's PFS gunslinger at 17th level is running an AC of 50, and his attack routine is vs touch to 40 feet at: +25(x2)/+25(x2)/+20(x2)/+15(x2)/+10(x2) for 1d8+30+4d6 (precision from up close and deadly). This is all before...

Great example, and never said Archer was under powered, hardly, zen archers are great, but toe to toe with a similarly well built Gunslinger, gunslinger will be better because, its range touch and archers are not, its really that simple. So give the archers some flare with these alternate ammo types to make up for that, let them trip, do a dye, have durable arrows etc....

Again never said the zen archer was bad.

[Belafon]

CRobledo wrote:

Belafon wrote:

Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

Also:

Quote:

Longbow, Composite

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it...

Your strength bonus doesn't go down with ability damage. You apply a -1 penalty for every 2. For example, STR damage doesn't affect your carrying capacity.

I am pretty sure there is a black and white clarification somewhere on the forums I can scrounge up later. I'm positive this changed between 3.5 and PF.

I would certainly say that your strength bonus is "a statistic based on that ability." Again, I'd love to see a link.

Now, if you are at 18 strength and get drained to 17, your modifier immediately goes down. With ability damage, you don't take a penalty until you take 2 points of damage regardless of the starting stat.

[Akerlof]

Eric Saxon wrote:

What are the best PFS legal items for archers and what do they cost vs. what do they do?

Anyone have a list of good items? (non-weapons)

They're actually weapons, but: Chakrams. They're slashing, you can use your ranged feats with them, and you get your strength bonus to them. Great for early levels when DR is a problem.

I second the Efficient Quiver and weapon blanch suggestions. At 5th level, my standard arrows are all cold iron (base arrow) and silver (blanch.) And I've got 10 each blunt, ghost salted (from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, hopefully it's reprinted in the new PFS thing) and adamantine blanched.

As for the Rapid Shot verses Precise Shot question: Rapid Shot _can_ be better for a switch hitter who is only expecting to shoot on the first round: Stay in the front of the group, keep your bow out, and beat your meleers at initiative. Next round you pull out your greatsword and start power attacking.

For dedicated ranged damage dealers, precise shot is definitely better. Even with a coordinated party, (Which is unlikely in my PFS experience. It's hard enough to get the cleric to not stand in front of the archer, much less the barbarian,) you can't gurantee the fight will allow for a 5' step dance game giving you a clear shot. Too many scenarios put fights in 5-10' wide hallways with multiple enemies.

[Eric Saxon]

Lormyr wrote:

My experience is that when comparing a well-built gunslinger against a well-built archer of any kind, all the archer will ever have over the gunslinger after 13th level is range - and let's face it, that is extremely easy to overcome for high level PCs.

Class to class, it's relatively balanced - in the favor of the archer at very low levels even. Adding in the firearm touch attacks, double attacks from a double-barreled pistol, removing missfire, and completely silly signature deed + up close and deadly shatters that relative balance, however.

I know it's a high level example, but my buddy's PFS gunslinger at 17th level is running an AC of 50, and his attack routine is vs touch to 40 feet at: +25(x2)/+25(x2)/+20(x2)/+15(x2)/+10(x2) for 1d8+30+4d6 (precision from up close and deadly). This is all before...

Sounds pretty impressive but like you said its a lvl. 17 comprarison. At lvl. 16, my 15 STR fighter will have a +6 STR/DEX/CON belt and a +5 STR tome. So his base STR is 26 for a +8 dmg bonus from STR. His INT will have the same bonus which means that he's getting a +8 dmg for STR dmg and +8 for INT and +10 dmg for deadly aim.

That's just 2 stats and one feat, making all of his hits 1d8+26, that doesn't even include, things like not having to worry about DR which the Clustered Shots feat overpowers.

So really its a question of how good is your friend's gunslinger, once a lvl. 17 ranged fighter, puts Speed and Fire Burst on his bow? Because at lvl. 17, that's what you'd be comparing against. A Composite Longbow +5 with Fire Burst and Speed and all the other bonuses like Weapon Specialization which at lvl. 17 gives the fighter +4 to hit, +4 to dmg.

If you'd be willing, I'd love to see the gunslinger build and would like to build one myself but I don't know if you have access to your friend's character sheet.

[N N 959]

Akerlof wrote:

For dedicated ranged damage dealers, precise shot is definitely better.

Sure about that? I quickly put together an Excel spreadsheet. And as you might have guessed, RS is better than PS any time your total modifiers give you better than a 50% chance to hit. And that's assuming you are always taking a -6 modifier.

To put this in to specifics, if you have a 1st level wizard with +4 Dex bonus, if the AC of the creature is 12 or less, RS does better expected damage. If you have Point Blank shot or a Bless, then on a 13 or less RS does more damage. This affirms the point I made earlier. There are far more ways to increase your Attack than there are to give yourself an extra attack.

What I didn't factor in is the possible crit benefit of another arrow (though I think that's probably negligible) and the damage differential when you don't have to fire into melee. In fact, when both players need 20's to hit, then RS is also better. Also not factored in is all the times you can't use Rapid Shot because you're moving and the first arrow still takes the -4 penalty.

So PS isn't definitively better, it's a question of circumstances. I'll add that a lot of times once everyone is wrapped up in melee, you're often getting

SCPRedMage wrote:

Not to mention the fact that some players simply won't play along out of either stubbornness, or simply because they want to be able to make an AoO

If you are going to invoke anti-social tactics at the table, then you're also going to have to shoot through Soft Cover, and at low levels point, the archer might be better served to pick up a polearm. Aid Another only requires a hit against AC 10 and is far more friendly to classes with no BAB at level 1.

Again, Precise Shot is great to have (I have it). But it's not as clear cut better than RS as one might think. If all you can do is shoot arrows, then yes, you should go Precise Shot. But if you character has other options, then you might be better going off with the higher damage option and then switching tactics if things get crowded.

[Lormyr]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Sounds pretty impressive but like you said its a lvl. 17 comprarison. At lvl. 16, my 15 STR fighter will have a +6 STR/DEX/CON belt and a +5 STR tome. So his base STR is 26 for a +8 dmg bonus from STR. His INT will have the same bonus which means that he's getting a +8 dmg for STR dmg and +8 for INT and +10 dmg for deadly aim.

That's just 2 stats and one feat, making all of his hits 1d8+26, that doesn't even include, things like not having to worry about DR which the Clustered Shots feat overpowers.

So really its a question of how good is your friend's gunslinger, once a lvl. 17 ranged fighter, puts Speed and Fire Burst on his bow? Because at lvl. 17, that's what you'd be comparing against. A Composite Longbow +5 with Fire Burst and Speed and all the other bonuses like Weapon Specialization which at lvl. 17 gives the fighter +4 to hit, +4 to dmg.

If you'd be willing, I'd love to see the gunslinger build and would like to build one myself but I don't know if you have access to your friend's character sheet.

I can recreate most of it without issue, but will also ask him for a breakdown of the bonuses.

At 7th level, they will be more evenly comparable due to missfires and feat disparity. I will throw one together real quick using PFS rules and around 36 fame 27,000gp (which is right around average).

I invite you to create a 17th level archer build of your choice to compare. Depending on your choice, damage per hit may be comparable, but amount of hits and number of attacks against a CR comparable foe will be vastly in the gunslinger's favor.

Also, if you are gaining your Int to damage from focused shot, be advised using that is a standard action - so a single arrow.

[andreww]

Eric Saxon wrote:

At lvl. 16, my 15 STR fighter will have a +6 STR/DEX/CON belt and a +5 STR tome.

That's 285k of gear for a character who will have, on average, around 315k wealth. Were you planning on buying anything else, a weapon maybe?

[andreww]

CWheezy wrote:

Oil of daylight only works in supernatural darkness when you can find what they cast darkness on

Why would you think that? The overlap area negate each other.

[Lormyr]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Sounds pretty impressive but like you said its a lvl. 17 comprarison. At lvl. 16, my 15 STR fighter will have a +6 STR/DEX/CON belt and a +5 STR tome. So his base STR is 26 for a +8 dmg bonus from STR. His INT will have the same bonus which means that he's getting a +8 dmg for STR dmg and +8 for INT and +10 dmg for deadly aim.

That's just 2 stats and one feat, making all of his hits 1d8+26, that doesn't even include, things like not having to worry about DR which the Clustered Shots feat overpowers.

So really its a question of how good is your friend's gunslinger, once a lvl. 17 ranged fighter, puts Speed and Fire Burst on his bow? Because at lvl. 17, that's what you'd be comparing against. A Composite Longbow +5 with Fire Burst and Speed and all the other bonuses like Weapon Specialization which at lvl. 17 gives the fighter +4 to hit, +4 to dmg.

If you'd be willing, I'd love to see the gunslinger build and would like to build one myself but I don't know if you have access to your friend's character sheet.

So here is the 7th level build I threw together. As previously said, at this level it's alot more comparable post 13.

Garuda-Blooded Aasimar Pistolero 7

Abilities: Str 10, Dex 23, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 7

Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload
(double-barreled pistol), Rapid Shot

Gear:
+1 distance double-barreled pistol (10k)
belt of incredible dexterity +2 (4k)
cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack rolls) (4k)
2 cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone (storing abundant ammunition and shield) (2k)
amulet of natural armor +1 (2k)
ring of protection +1 (2k)

wands of abundant ammunition, mage armor, shield (6 PP)

So this characters attack options are (all considered point blank range):

+16/+11 ranged touch (1d8+8/20 x4)
+14/+14/+9 ranged touch (1d8+8/20 x4) with Rapid Shot
+12/+12/+7 ranged touch (1d8+12/20 x4) with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot
+8 (x2)/+8 (x2)/+3 (x2) ranged touch (1d8+12/20 x4) with Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, and using both barrels

Lacking clustered shots can be hard at that level, but again, post 13 it's a whole new ball game. I personally would take 6 touch attacks/round over range almost any day for pure power purposes. I will post the higher level stuff later on.

[SCPRedMage]

N N 959 wrote:

Sure about that? I quickly put together an Excel spreadsheet.

So... if 4e is WoW, does this mean PF is... Eve Online?

Spreadsheets... in... SPACE!

EDIT:

N N 959 wrote:

If you are going to invoke anti-social tactics at the table, then you're also going to have to shoot through Soft Cover, and at low levels point, the archer might be better served to pick up a polearm. Aid Another only requires a hit against AC 10 and is far more friendly to classes with no BAB at level 1.

Aid Another is against AC 10, but all the standard modifiers, such as cover, still applies. Considering that reach weapons determine cover the same way ranged weapons do, you're still looking at hitting AC 14, which undoubtedly is better than trying to hit the creature outright, to be sure, but it IS something to consider.

My point is that if you're sitting down at a table with a bunch of players you don't really know, they're probably not going to be terribly happy when you ask them to delay their turns just so YOU can not be gimped, all because you chose not to take what amounts to a mandatory feat. A lot of players will hear that request and immediately think "and risk giving the enemies more turns? I don't think so!"

So, again: you should not plan your PFS build around the expectation that your fellow players will go out of their way to accommodate you. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. You can't count on it, so don't expect it.

[Akerlof]

N N 959 wrote:

Akerlof wrote:

For dedicated ranged damage dealers, precise shot is definitely better.

Sure about that? I quickly put together an Excel spreadsheet. And as you might have guessed, RS is better than PS any time your total modifiers give you better than a 50% chance to hit. And that's assuming you are always taking a -6 modifier.

To put this in to specifics, if you have a 1st level wizard with +4 Dex bonus, if the AC of the creature is 12 or less, RS does better expected damage. If you have Point Blank shot or a Bless, then on a 13 or less RS does more damage. This affirms the point I made earlier. There are far more ways to increase your Attack than there are to give yourself an extra attack.

What I didn't factor in is the possible crit benefit of another arrow (though I think that's probably negligible) and the damage differential when you don't have to fire into melee. In fact, when both players need 20's to hit, then RS is also better. Also not factored in is all the times you can't use Rapid Shot because you're moving and the first arrow still takes the -4 penalty.

So PS isn't definitively better, it's a question of circumstances. I'll add that a lot of times once everyone is wrapped up in melee, you're often getting

SCPRedMage wrote:

Not to mention the fact that some players simply won't play along out of either stubbornness, or simply because they want to be able to make an AoO

If you are going to invoke anti-social tactics at the table, then you're also going to have to shoot through Soft Cover, and at low levels point, the archer might be better served to pick up a polearm. Aid Another only requires a hit against AC 10 and is far more friendly to classes with no BAB at level 1.

Again, Precise Shot is great to have (I have it). But it's not as clear cut better than RS as one might think. If all you can do is shoot arrows, then yes, you should go Precise Shot. But if you character has other options, then you might be better going off with the higher...

In PFS, and this conversation is happening in the PFS forums, my experience is that your target ALMOST ALWAYS has cover. Not just because your party doesn't understand how to work with archers, but because there are 6 people at the table more often than not and combats take place in close quarters.

Precise Shot doesn't bump you to -6, it keeps you from dropping to -10.

If you have BAB 1, 18 dex, 10 str and Point Blank Shot (1d8+1 or 5.5 dmg/hit), the enemy has AC 14 (the median AC from the bestiary) you're looking at:

Without cover, but in combat with an ally, Rapid Shot without Precise shot gives you a 44% chance to hit with at least 1 arrow and 3.5 DPR. Precise shot with no Rapid Shot gives you a 60% chance to hit each round averaging 3.2 DPR. DPR is slightly higher on average with Rapid Shot, but spikier, you're more likely to hit with Precise Shot.

With cover, Rapid Shot alone has a 28% chance of hitting with at least 1 arrow for 1.5 DPR while Precise Shot alone has a 40% chance of hitting, yielding 2.2DPR.

IF you can get a clear line of sight and IF you can get your meleers to 5' step away from your targets before you shoot, Rapid Shot is better than Precise Shot. (Which is why I recommended it for switch hitters.) If only one of these conditions can be met, Rapid Shot is about 10% more damage on average but you only hit about 3/4 as often as someone with Precise Shot.(*) (That 6% of the time you hit with both arrows makes up the damage difference.) The rest of the time, which is VERY common especially in PFS at low tier tables (where you not only have random people, you have a much higher proportion of new people with poor system mastery,) Rapid Shot alone is worse in every way than Precise Shot alone.

In my experience in PFS, attacking a target who isn't engaged in melee and doesn't have cover is the rare exception, the vast majority of the time I have to deal with both. I can't tell you how often I've run into encounters in 10' wide hallways with 2 monsters side by side and a meleer or two up front.

Outcomes:

No cover, not in combat, 1 arrow: 3.2175 DPR (Probability hit = 60%)
No cover, not in combat, Rapid Shot, 2 arrows: 5.445 DPR (Probability at least 1 hit = 69.75%)

No cover, in combat, no Precise Shot, 1 arrow: 2.2275 DPR (Probability hit = 40%)
No cover, in combat, no precise shot, Rapid Shot 2 arrows: 3.465 DPR Probability at least 1 hit = 43.75%)

No cover, in combat, Precise Shot, 1 arrow: 3.2175 DPR (Probability hit = 60%)
No cover, in combat, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, 2 arrows: 5.445 DPR (Probability at least 1 hit = 69.75%)

Cover, in combat, no precise shot, 1 arrow: 1.2375 DPR (Probability hit = 25%)
Cover, in combat, no precise shot, 2 arrows: 1.485 DPR (Probability at least 1 hit = 27.75%)

Cover, in combat, Precise Shot, 1 arrow: 2.2275 DPR (Probability hit = 40%)
Cover, in combat, Precise shot, 2 arrows: 3.465 DPR Probability at least 1 hit = 43.75%)

(*)Out of 100 rounds of combat, without cover but with enemies in combat with allies:
Precise Shot will shoot 100 arrows, hit with 60 in 60 rounds and do 322 damage on average (including crits.)

Rapid Shot will shoot 200 arrows, hit with 1 arrow 38 times, hit with both arrows 6 times and miss completely 56 times, doing 346 damage (including crits.)

Hitting in 44 rounds is hitting about 73.3% as often as hitting in 60 rounds. You're doing a little bit more damage but missing completely far more often.

[Hobbun]

I have to agree with Akerlof, especially in regards to the attacking a target not engaged in melee. Encounter distance is often quite short in PFS, and if your initiative is lower, then by the time you can attack with your bow other party members are usually engaged with the enemy.

I chose the TWF combat style for my Ranger, but I still use my bow relatively often , especially at the beginning of combat. And I did select Precise Shot as there have just been too many times I’ve fired into melee and missed because of the -4.

[N N 959]

Akerlof wrote:

...my experience is that your target ALMOST ALWAYS has cover.

And my experience is vastly different. From the very first PFS mission I ran, I asked the fighters to make sure and leave me an alley to shoot and they didn't have a problem with it. In fact, I've never had blow back from any player about giving my ranger a clear shot. Obviously I don't ask when it's not possible.

Most PFS encounters don't take place in a 10' hallway. In fact, the vast majority take place in large room or outdoors. Let's look a the First Step series and there is exactly one encounter that takes place in a hallway. Every other encounter is either in a room or outdoors. It's the rare, rare exception that I have to shoot through teammates an entire battle.

Shooting into melee is much more common. So I'll have to categorically disagree with your presenting it as -10.

SCPRedMage wrote:

My point is that if you're sitting down at a table with a bunch of players you don't really know, they're probably not going to be terribly happy when you ask them to delay their turns just so YOU can not be gimped,

Occasionally asking the fighter or cleric take a 5' step back is helping everyone, not just my character. The party is all on the same side. The more damage we do, especially at level 1, the safer everyone is. I've never seen any player take the jackass attitude you are describing. I've never had a problem with players understanding the concept of tactics to improve damage. Maybe I just explain it better or maybe you're exaggerating the anti-social attitude players show up with.

[Eric Saxon]

N N 959 wrote:

SCPRedMage wrote:

Not to mention the fact that some players simply won't play along out of either stubbornness, or simply because they want to be able to make an AoO

If you are going to invoke anti-social tactics at the table, then you're also going to have to shoot through Soft Cover, and at low levels point, the archer might be better served to pick up a polearm.

Again, Precise Shot is great to have (I have it). But it's not as clear cut better than RS as one might think. If all you can do is shoot arrows, then yes, you should go Precise Shot. But if you character has other options, then you might be better going off with the higher...

I have both RS and PS, I'd say that PS is better over all. Not by much but PS doesn't leave you dependent on the willingness of others to do nothing, until you get your shot off.

My GM is already ticked off that I keep one-shot breaking his scenarios. So I honestly can't imagine what he'd say if I asked the other players to let me go first before they went.

From his point of view, my pulling a Rambo on the BBEG is considered anti-social behavior because it doesn't allow others to shine, so I try not to do so.

But if you suggested that people not letting you shoot first, is them being anti-social, I'm not sure if you'd be invited to another session. But this is just my experience, where I game.

[David_Bross]

If your enemies aren't getting cover fairly often you're either off in a corner away from the party or your GM doesn't know the cover rules very well. Every corner of their square. Precise shot is much better than rapid shot. I did the math myself before picking which one I took at level 1, and someone earlier in this post already did the math for it.

[SCPRedMage]

N N 959 wrote:

And my experience is vastly different. From the very first PFS mission I ran, I asked the fighters to make sure and leave me an alley to shoot and they didn't have a problem with it. In fact, I've never had blow back from any player about giving my ranger a clear shot. Obviously I don't ask when it's not possible.

And in my experience, many fights don't last much beyond the first couple of rounds. With the first round involving closing into melee, frequently the melee characters don't have a lot of flexibility of how they can get close enough AND still get an attack off that round.

Also, in my experience, the party almost always ends up clustered together at the start of a fight. If the melee characters move straight forward to get into melee, then chances are you're going to need to flank (general term, not the game term) the enemy in order to get that clear shot, in which case you're not going to be able to use Rapid Shot, anyways.

N N 959 wrote:

Occasionally asking the fighter or cleric take a 5' step back is helping everyone, not just my character. The party is all on the same side. The more damage we do, especially at level 1, the safer everyone is. I've never seen any player take the jackass attitude you are describing. I've never had a problem with players understanding the concept of tactics to improve damage. Maybe I just explain it better or maybe you're exaggerating the anti-social attitude players show up with.

Yeah, except you were talking about asking for a LOT more than just a five foot step, you were also talking about asking them to delay their turns back and forth in order for the archer to avoid taking the penalty.

Again, the point I keep trying to make (and you keep avoiding addressing) is simple:

SCPRedMage wrote:

So, again: you should not plan your PFS build around the expectation that your fellow players will go out of their way to accommodate you. Sometimes they will, sometimes they won't. You can't count on it, so don't expect it.

[Jiggy]

David_Bross wrote:

Precise shot is much better than precise shot.

*scratches head*

[Akerlof]

Jiggy wrote:

David_Bross wrote:

Precise shot is much better than precise shot.

*scratches head*

It's the capital P, proper capitalization is worth at least a 10% bump in DPR, the dice gods Just Know whether or nor you're a capitalizer. That's why I always capitalize my feats.

/The more you know!

[N N 959]

SCPRedMage wrote:

And in my experience, many fights don't last much beyond the first couple of rounds. With the first round involving closing into melee, frequently the melee characters don't have a lot of flexibility of how they can get close enough AND still get an attack off that round.

I agree that most fights don't last that long. Which means that a high dex character who can win init, and get two shots off before anyone else moves into melee, is at a huge advantage.

Quote:

Also, in my experience, the party almost always ends up clustered together at the start of a fight.

As far as melee not having much flexibility, again, that hasn't been my experience. The way the squares line up, you can have four melee targets all around one NPC, all getting flanking bonuses, and none of them causing Soft Cover penalties.

Quote:

Also, in my experience, the party almost always ends up clustered together at the start of a fight. If the melee characters move straight forward to get into melee, then chances are you're going to need to flank (general term, not the game term) the enemy in order to get that clear shot, in which case you're not going to be able to use Rapid Shot, anyways.

I use Rapid Shot a ton. I may spend a round to get into position, or to improve it, but it's a tremendous feat for an archer.

Quote:

Yeah, except you were talking about asking for a LOT more than just a five foot step, you were also talking about asking them to delay their turns back and forth in order for the archer to avoid taking the penalty.

Let's clarify some things here. First, I'm only talking about doing this with one or two other meleers, not six. Second Twoor three people can delay one after the other and nobody loses an attack. As a Delay, you can always take your turn right after someone else's.

And I'll disagree with your point about accommodation. RPG's are group activities. The party is a team. Teammates work together. If you, as a player, aren't willing to help facilitate other players' to succeed and contribute (at no cost to you) then you are playing the wrong game. I absolutely build my characters based on people working together.

[N N 959]

David_Bross wrote:

Precise shot is much better than rapid shot. I did the math myself before picking which one I took at level 1, and someone earlier in this post already did the math for it.

The math is very simple. As soon as you have a 50% chance or better to hit with the penalized Rapid Shot, it exceeds Precise Shot in utility. The question is how often is that the case?

At level 4, I'm getting +11 to hit in some cases. When fighting creatures with an AC of 15 (which still seems to come up), I'm FAR better off with Rapid Shot over Precise Shot. And that's assuming I don't get to fire on them flat footed. Obviously I want both.

For some builds/styles of play Rapid Shot may be better. EDIT: If you had to choose. Anyone who is planning on a ranged build should have both.

[Gwen Smith]

neferphras wrote:

Dorothy Lindman wrote:

Durable and Blunt have been my bread-and-butter. Blunt and smoke arrows are available in PFS, and I think thistle are as well. The ones I really miss in PFS play are the durable ones, but I can get magic items/abundant ammunition more easily in PFS to make up for it.

pretty sure Durable, your bread and butter as you say, is not PFS legal per this thread. It only is from the elves module.

You are correct. That's why I said that I miss them. :-)

Fortunately, in PFS, a wand of Abundant Ammunition is 2 PP, always available, and usable by 5 different spellcasting classes. That's also why I said you can make up for it pretty easily. (Of course, that comment was buried fairly deeply; thank you for pointing it out.)

A PFS version of my archer would probably carry 40 normal arrows, 20 blunt, and maybe 3-5 each of mithral (for silver), cold iron, and adamantine along with an abundant ammunition wand. Past level 8, I'd look at getting a Conserving bow, since she'll be using 4-5 arrows per round. (I'm still weighing the benefit of Conserving vs. Endless Ammunition for the bow enhancement. Conserving is only a +1, and you can use any type of ammo with it. It only recovers missed shots, though.)

[ArmouredMonk13]

To the Rapid Shot vs. Precise Shot discussion:
1.)Capitalize feats because you always want to have the dice gods happy.
2.)Rapid Shot and Precise Shot are different feats with different advantages. Neither one is better than the other. Clever tactics can get around the penalty, but can be negated by a first level druid spell (Entangle). Two shots at once is nice, and there are no tactics to give you this, but still you can wait a few levels to get this vs. waiting a few levels to stop asking teammates to jump through hoops to make you happy.

To the Archer vs. Gunslinger discussion:
1.)Anything you can apply to a fighter (archer) you can apply to a gunslinger. The Archer just gets feats sooner. Gunslinger has an advantage from ranged touch. However, if you discover the fact that the archer can take a level of any arcane caster and enter a Prestige Class that lets him treat all of his arrows as +1 flaming burst arrows, It seems like a nice trade off.

To the Actual Topic of this Thread:
Bow
Arrows
Efficient Quiver
Special Arrows
Bracers of Archery
Belt of Incredible Dexterity +x
Wand of Abundant Ammunition and nice Use Magic Device check if you can't cast Abundant Ammunition.
Bag of Holding
Anything else that helps with ranged attacks or ammunition storage.

[CWheezy]

andreww wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Oil of daylight only works in supernatural darkness when you can find what they cast darkness on

Why would you think that? The overlap area negate each other.

Sorry, meant Deeper Darkness

[SCPRedMage]

CWheezy wrote:

andreww wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Oil of daylight only works in supernatural darkness when you can find what they cast darkness on

Why would you think that? The overlap area negate each other.

Sorry, meant Deeper Darkness

Doesn't matter, daylight and deeper darkness will still cancel each other out where they overlap, as per the description of the daylight spell.

[David Bowles]

You're thinking if you want to use it as a direct counter. Which no one ever does, because the range is touch.

[Eric Saxon]

SCPRedMage wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

andreww wrote:

CWheezy wrote:

Oil of daylight only works in supernatural darkness when you can find what they cast darkness on

Why would you think that? The overlap area negate each other.

Sorry, meant Deeper Darkness

Doesn't matter, daylight and deeper darkness will still cancel each other out where they overlap, as per the description of the daylight spell.

Yup. The only way for an NPC to cancel your Daylight or Oil of Daylight, is to actually do a touch attack against the surface that you applied the Daylight spell to.

Which is why smart parties will often find out who has the highest Touch AC in the group and apply Daylight to them, when facing Deeper Darkness.

And casting Deeper Darkness x 3 is still negated by a single Daylight, they don't stack.

[David Bowles]

Actually, NPCs can cast dispel magic at range to bring down daylight as well. They also can physically cover the source of the daylight.

[kinevon]

A couple of things for a sorcerer to think about that make Precise Shot almost infinitely better for them than Rapid Shot could ever be.

Precise Shot applies not just to longbow/shortbow attacks, but it also applies to ray attacks.

And using Ray of Frost, just as an example, is a better choice, overall, for a sorcerer than using a bow of any sort. It may be less damage per hit, but it ignores DR and goes against Touch AC. It also does nto cost very much in the way of resources, as compared to a bow.

One cantrip slot, as compared to an ever-mounting cost for the bow, arrows, and magical enhancements to the bow, and carrying not just a single batch of arrows, but the various special ammunition types.

And, because it applies to any Ray spell, Precise Shot can be used with spells of any level, like, say, Scorching Ray, just for one example off the top of my head.

Rapid Shot, on the other hand, won't affect the sorcerer's spells in any way. And, apparently, it does stack with Haste, but the sorcerer is probably going to be the person casting Haste, when the level gets that high.

Rapid Shot, really, is not a good feat, especially if you aren't a full BAB type with a primary attack stat that focuses toward ranged attacks. Deadly Aim, also, is a pretty bad feat if you don't have a good BAB.

On Gunslingers, remember that they only get attacks against Touch AC from the first range increment. To be honest, that can be from as little as 20' away from their target. That is going to be within Tumbing range for many opponents, and worth the chance of an AoO for any high AC, low Touch AC targets likely to be the Gunslinger's bread and butter. Heck, at higher levels, that is going to be within the threatened area for the target. And, also, within range of negative channeling, and other burst effects.

And your buddy's 17th level Gunslinger needs to show how he can get so many attacks when he needs to have a hand free to reload, and there are a limited amount of free actions, and only one swift action, in a turn.

Also, overall, I would rather be 100' away from an enemy with my longbow, than 20' away from an enemy with my pistol. Especially if the enemy is intelligent, because sundering a firearm is not going to be a big deal....

[andreww]

Precise Shot is still terrible for sorcerers. You have precious few feats and using them to offset a relatively small penalty (given how low touch AC's tend to be) in order to boost a small handful of your spells known is a terrible deal.

[Eric Saxon]

kinevon wrote:

And your buddy's 17th level Gunslinger needs to show how he can get so many attacks when he needs to have a hand free to reload, and there are a limited amount of free actions, and only one swift...

Yeah, I was originally wondering that myself but I decided to let it go, since its not likely to be a PFS legal PC but rather a homebrew one. Or maybe he just carries 20 pistols with him.

[Lormyr]

kinevon wrote:

And your buddy's 17th level Gunslinger needs to show how he can get so many attacks when he needs to have a hand free to reload, and there are a limited amount of free actions, and only one swift...

Rapid reload + alchemical cartridges are what make reloading a free action.

Past that, what actions are considered free is a very strict list. But past that, their is no stated limit on free actions per turn other than GM decision.

I would argue that if drawing an arrow to fire through a bow (which is a free action) can be done up to full attack, than loading your gun (which is also a free action through feats + items) and firing should be equally valid up to full attack.

[Lormyr]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Yeah, I was originally wondering that myself but I decided to let it go, since its not likely to be a PFS legal PC but rather a homebrew one. Or maybe he just carries 20 pistols with him.

He is a perfectly legal PFS PC with a single double-barreled pistol.

[Eric Saxon]

Lormyr wrote:

Eric Saxon wrote:

Yeah, I was originally wondering that myself but I decided to let it go, since its not likely to be a PFS legal PC but rather a homebrew one. Or maybe he just carries 20 pistols with him.

He is a perfectly legal PFS PC with a single double-barreled pistol.

How many hands does he need to fire a double-barreled pistol?

[Lormyr]

Eric Saxon wrote:

Lormyr wrote:

Eric Saxon wrote:

Yeah, I was originally wondering that myself but I decided to let it go, since its not likely to be a PFS legal PC but rather a homebrew one. Or maybe he just carries 20 pistols with him.

He is a perfectly legal PFS PC with a single double-barreled pistol.

How many hands does he need to fire a double-barreled pistol?

One. It is a single handed firearm. And yes, double-barreled pistols are extremely stupid.

I'm not saying I like them or think they are balanced - I'm just saying his character is 100% PFS legal, and he is perfectly capable of performing as I described.