Alright, here is the question I have:
Let's say you are a Vampire (or any other undead monk), and then you reach level 20 and get perfect self.
So you are undead, and gain some outsiders thing, especially that part:
"She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects"
So what does that mean exactly? Are you not vulnerable to undead specific spells anymore?
Can you still be healed by Negative energy?
Does Paladin Smite good does double damage to you on its first attack?
What exactly change or doesn't?
|
You would probably have to go into the epic levels to do that, level 21+, because going vampire gives you a racial HD or two (I think...) Double check that.
RAW, it'd get complicated, because your a magical beast and undead, or one of those two. Vampires can be made from monstrous humanoids, but that type is replaced when they become a vampire.
If they stack, I'd say that you gain the effects of everything, so you'd still be subject to double damage unless it specifically said it doesn't effect outsiders, because you follow the most specific rule (In this case, the fact it deals double damage to undead).
Same with any other spell.
Hope that helps.
You know, that makes me think there must be room for an undead-themed monk archetype. That way the capstone could make you undead with a twist, similar to the immortal capstone some other monk archetypes have - rather than reincarnating, you become a lich and can regenerate yourself through a phylactery...
You know, that makes me think there must be room for an undead-themed monk archetype. That way the capstone could make you undead with a twist, similar to the immortal capstone some other monk archetypes have - rather than reincarnating, you become a lich and can regenerate yourself through a phylactery...Hungry Ghost Monk?
I was thinking something more....undeady. Sort of like a necromancer path monk, if you get my meaning.
This is an odd situation. For the record, Vampires do not gain racial HD. They get a CR increase, but no racial HD. So FrodoOf9Fingers is incorrect that this would require breaching level 20.
I'd argue that they are no longer undead, since the class ability came after the vampire turn - a 20th level monk who is turned would become undead (augmented outsider) instead of outsider. But in becoming an outsider, they'd presumably be resurrected - regaining their Con score, for one. Oddly, many of the abilites of the vampire template are implied to be because of the type change to undead, but don't actually say that. So they'd still use Cha instead of Con for bonus hp, for example.
I look at it that you should apply the template affect afterwards, or else you should gain no benefit from the template at all. So in essence, you have a 20th level monk, and then apply the Vampire template. Seems to be the most logical way to do it.
So a human monk would have started life as a humanoid(human). At 20th level his type changes essentially to outsider(native) (like Aasimar). Then apply the Vampire template and you have undead(augmented outsider(native)).
Makes sense to me.
Monks don't actually become Outsiders, they're just treated as Outsiders for the purposes of spells and effects.
An Undead Monk is no different. You still have the Undead type, but for spells (like Cure Light Wounds) that work differently for Outsiders as they do Undead, you're treated as an Outsider not an Undead. Similarly, for effects (like Channel Energy or Smite Evil) that work differently for Outsiders as they do Undead, you're treated as an Outsider not an Undead.
For other things not spells or effects, like not having a CON score, you're still an Unead, so they're not an issue.
I look at it that you should apply the template affect afterwards, or else you should gain no benefit from the template at all. So in essence, you have a 20th level monk, and then apply the Vampire template. Seems to be the most logical way to do it.
So a human monk would have started life as a humanoid(human). At 20th level his type changes essentially to outsider(native) (like Aasimar). Then apply the Vampire template and you have undead(augmented outsider(native)).
Makes sense to me.
What about a Ghoul or Mummy, or other non-templated Undead?
Should they be any different than templated Undead?
I think I am leaning towards the theory that regardless of the order in which you acquire the traits, templates are applied on top of your other traits.
Templates have always been strict about application. A set of templates applied in one way works, that same set of templates applied in another way invalidates some templates.
In a situation like this, the template exists and later the class grants some abilities which may or may not seem worth it or do anything because of the template. Redundancy happens in this game.
Very curious corner case that's come up in my own theory crafting with Mythic Vampires this morning. My personal interpretation is that they wouldn't cease being undead, merely be treated as Outsiders for those kind of effects.