Fighter archetype -> Changing weapon training -> Gloves of Dueling

[Derrick Harris]

Hello folks. This is in regards to Pathfinder Society play in particular, as the rules generally go by the letter of the wording in the book in society play vs. home games. So. Here's the situation:

I'm playing a fighter with the Polearm Master archetype and I'm wanting to purchase the Gloves of Dueling. However, a buddy of mine is telling me that they will not work for me.

Wording:

Polearm Training (Ex)

At 5th level a polearm master gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with spears and polearms. The bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 5th.

This ability replaces Weapon Training 1.

Wording:

Gloves of Dueling
These supple gloves grant the wearer a +4 bonus to her CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder her wielded weapons, and effects that cause her to lose her grip on her weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn’t drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, her weapon training bonus increases by +2.

His arguement is that since I do not have Weapon Training that the Gloves of Dueling will not increase my Polearm Training as the wording of the gloves only covers the fighter's Weapon Training ability. I disagree with this, because my archetype ability does the same exact thing at the same exact level increments as weapon training but only allows a smaller weapon selection. In addition to this, out of 29 fighter archetypes, only 4 do not make some kind of change to weapon training. I can't believe that roughly 80% of fighters would be unable to utilize the Gloves of Dueling.

Please clarify. And yes, I would really appeciate a response from a Paizo staff member. :) Thank you all ahead of time. Please keep it friendly.

[Jiggy]

Unless you're requesting that PFS make a special rule for things to work differently than printed, this is a rules question, not a PFS question. And maybe you are requesting a special PFS exception, seeing as you obviously understand how it works as written and simply don't like it, but PFS leadership is not in the habit of changing how Core Rules work unless it's necessary to accommodate the nature of organized play. Having to change your shopping list to match your archetype is not that sort of situation, so don't hold your breath. Sorry. :(

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

I am of two thoughts on this:

I believe that the intent of the gloves is to increase the "X training". Since the base fighter language was weapon training, that's the language they used in the item. That being said, Polearm training is not any different from weapon training, it just applies to polearms.

In a home game, I'd allow the gloves to work.

But this is PFS, and we have to go by rules as written, and as such, it would not work in a PFS game.

[Rogue Eidolon]

Jiggy wrote:

Unless you're requesting that PFS make a special rule for things to work differently than printed, this is a rules question, not a PFS question. And maybe you are requesting a special PFS exception, seeing as you obviously understand how it works as written and simply don't like it, but PFS leadership is not in the habit of changing how Core Rules work unless it's necessary to accommodate the nature of organized play. Having to change your shopping list to match your archetype is not that sort of situation, so don't hold your breath. Sorry. :(

Yeah. The problem in this case is that those gloves are so ridiculously overpowered compared to all other options (at least a must-buy, depending on if you think it's a "necessary patch" for fighters) that not having them is actually a big consideration in the viability of archetypes (also non-fighter archetypes that grant Weapon Training are hugely boosted by this as well. I think this wasn't intended by the authors of archetypes, so it leads to unintended power disparity.

That said, I'm fully in agreement that PFS isn't the place for making these kinds of changes. In home games I typically allow fighters to use the gloves on whatever their version of Weapon Training is if it makes sense.

[WalterGM]

Unfortunately, that's the downside to a majority of those fighter archetypes.

Gloves of dueling specify that the wearer gains benefits if they have Weapon Training. Polearm Master and those other archetypes have new class features that replace, among other things, Weapon Training. As per the rules for archetypes: When an archetype includes multiple alternate class features, a character must take them all—often blocking the character from ever gaining certain standard class features, but replacing them with other options.

The fact that the new ability has the word "Training" in it is not enough to constitute the +2 additional hit and damage ability of the gloves of dueling. You no longer possess "Weapon Training" the required class feature for using that part of the item. You possess "Polearm Training," which is a separate class feature that replaces Weapon Training.

Unfortunately, it's another price those specialized fighters pay for being specialized. And it is likely never going to get "fixed" as those gloves were recently reprinted in UE -- which is the most up-to-date source of items we have.

[Bbauzh ap Aghauzh]

Also keep in mind, that the developers do not write material with PFS in mind. They write it as a mutable game where the GM and Players work together to decide how they are going to use the rules set.

It is unfortunate, that in PFS, we don't have the luxury of making these sorts of calls.

[CRobledo]

I think vanilla fighters deserve something cool to call their own, and I'm ok with that.

Like others have said above, gloves of dueling only work if your class feature is called "Weapon Training". There are a few archetypes that still keep it as well (and weaponmaster gets it early!)

Derrick Harris wrote:

I can't believe that roughly 80% of fighters would be unable to utilize the Gloves of Dueling.

I can.

[Mergy]

Derrick Harris wrote:

In addition to this, out of 29 fighter archetypes, only 4 do not make some kind of change to weapon training. I can't believe that roughly 80% of fighters would be unable to utilize the Gloves of Dueling.

Since I would expect most Pathfinder Society Fighters to be Lore Wardens, I don't see it as a problem.

Actually, the four best fighter archetypes (Core fighter, weaponmaster, lore warden, unarmed fighter) all get to use them.

[Kintrik]

Adam Mogyorodi wrote:

Derrick Harris wrote:

In addition to this, out of 29 fighter archetypes, only 4 do not make some kind of change to weapon training. I can't believe that roughly 80% of fighters would be unable to utilize the Gloves of Dueling.

Since I would expect most Pathfinder Society Fighters to be Lore Wardens, I don't see it as a problem.

Actually, the four best fighter archetypes (Core fighter, weaponmaster, lore warden, unarmed fighter) all get to use them.

don't forget the brawlers, they don't get to use them but their ability to shutdown enemy casters and move people around is pretty nice.

[Silbeg]

For that matter, 2-Handed weapon fighters get to use them as well... and from a pure damage potential, they are pretty potent. But I can see be disappointed when they don't work with your choice.

[Mike Schneider]

Welcome to the wonderful world of munchkin trap archetypes.

[TGMaxMaxer]

So... how do you guys then adjudicate the couple of archetypes that use the language:

"X Training: The (whatever) gets weapon training, but only with (X) type weapons. "

Since it specifically says they get weapon training... Notably, the Dragoon.

UC wrote:

Spear Training (Ex): At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon's weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level). The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.

Note: This is different than the polearm master training, as that never mentions the words weapon training in the ability.