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and major MAD
Someone has noticed that his build hasn't increased the MAD of a monk?
He has replaced dexterity with charisma for AC purpose. Sure, he is suffering a bit on the reflex save, but as he want to increase his levels as a monk his basic saving throw plus the monk abilities will patch that.From what I see most hate in this thread is based on the principle that mixing classes is bad, non on the actual build and his future projects.
** spoiler omitted **...You are aware that certain bard archetypes are better at traps than rogues right?
Yes, of course. The bard's reputation as a "great 5th member" was established long before the APG was published. I'm not claiming that the bard is bad, just explaining why it sometimes gets "hate".
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No class in the game has 5+int skill points.on a wild hunch, i'd say he's assuming you have at least 16 INT with those classes, 2+3=5. i would have placed the assumption at 14 when starting (and even 12 is legit), but close enough for his general point, since you're almost certain to raise it if you level up (that's the + he referenced, not '+INT').
Quandry is right. I was using "5+" to mean "5 or more", not "5+INT". The reason I said 5 for Alchemist and Magus is that INT is the primary ability score for each of those classes. Between build-points, racial INT bonuses, the human "skilled" trait, and favored class bonuses, I would be surprised to ever see an Alchemist or Magus without at least 5 skill points.
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and major MADSomeone has noticed that his build hasn't increased the MAD of a monk?
He has replaced dexterity with charisma for AC purpose. Sure, he is suffering a bit on the reflex save, but as he want to increase his levels as a monk his basic saving throw plus the monk abilities will patch that.
The clever move he built the character around is Sidestep Secret, and I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that. However, by using CHA+Sidestep for AC and dropping DEX to 7, he didn't just hurt his reflex save. He also left himself with no ranged capability, and extremely vulnerable to grappling. Monks are MAD as hell, and the "Bieber Build" doesn't improve the situation any.
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From what I see most hate in this thread is based on the principle that mixing classes is bad, non on the actual build and his future projects.
Mixing classes isn't bad, it's just tricky and shouldn't be attempted by amateurs without expert supervision. His group, and this community, wouldn't be complaining if he mixed a little Alchemist into a Barbarian in order to stack Rage+Mutagen, or a little Thug into a Fighter to be a master of intimidation, or Paladin in to Oracle to get armor and saves, or a level of Cleric into Monk for Crusader's Flurry, etc.
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So, the OP built a self buffing Monk who can use divine magic items without need of UMD, has great ability to identify monsters and this improve non meta gamed tactics for the party...and people are saying he's useless?
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
So, the OP built a self buffing Monk who can use divine magic items without need of UMD, has great ability to identify monsters and this improve non meta gamed tactics for the party...and people are saying he's useless?
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
It does say a few things yeah. Making that type of character can be a great relief--you step away from DPR or desperately filling all your slots through crafting, or ensuring your attack bonus, and number of attacks are insane, or the saves to your spells are through the roof.
It smells like freedom.
So, the OP built a self buffing Monk who can use divine magic items without need of UMD, has great ability to identify monsters and this improve non meta gamed tactics for the party...and people are saying he's useless?
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
Great ability to identify monsters?
The rest sounds plausible, and with the way you wrote it, it sounds really good. I still don't think this is that great in actual play, but it might be servicable if the OP is a good enough player, and if he is contributing the others should leave him alone.
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
Great. So we've established that PFS players, or Pathfinder players, or humans generally, are jerks.
You're surprised?
No one is forcing you to play. Pizza can be delivered and Minecraft has a single player mode. You never need leave your cave.
You can't control other people's behavior. You'll only frustrate yourself if you try. Keeping that in mind, do as you see fit.
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It does say a few things yeah. Making that type of character can be a great relief--you step away from DPR or desperately filling all your slots through crafting, or ensuring your attack bonus, and number of attacks are insane, or the saves to your spells are through the roof.So, the OP built a self buffing Monk who can use divine magic items without need of UMD, has great ability to identify monsters and this improve non meta gamed tactics for the party...and people are saying he's useless?
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
I understand what you are both saying, and I've felt the same way as both a player and a GM. Characters should have some character to them! Pathfinder is more than a tactical board game. The roleplaying is at least important as the gaming, and even the gaming isn't made up of just combat.
On the other hand, combat is one of the constants in Pathfinder, and has been since it's D&D origins before half of us were born. Look at a Pathfinder core book, and it's overwhelmingly about combat. (The equipment section, for example, has 15 pages of weapons & armor, but less than half that many pages covering every other good or service available.) So, it's not uncharitable to expect every character to make some contribution in that area, even if it's not their specialty.
Every well functioning RPG group finds its own level of desired optimization. I've been in groups that said taking Power Attack as a Fighter bonus feat at first level was too overpowered, and in other groups that considered the entire Fighter class too underpowered to be worth playing. Depending on the GM, the adventure, the other characters, and the other players, a wide variety of different measures could be appropriate.
To fit in with a group, it's important to be within their optimization range. If you're twice as powerful as their most powerful character, you're going to mess up the game. The same is true if your twice as weak as their weakest character.
Pathfinder Society Play resolves some of the ambiguity in determining the appropriate level of optimization. It removes 3rd party and 3.5 material from the table, eliminates custom magic items, and bans certain archetypes, all of which put limits on the "top end" of optimization. On the other hand, PFS adventures have set monsters, maps, skill DCs, etc. so every character needs to be able to handle those ACs, DCs, or CRs. This puts limits on the "bottom end" of optimization.
What is the appropriate level of optimization for PFS in general? What's the appropriate level for the OP's particular PFS group? That's difficult to say from where we stand here on the forum. But, should we take the OP's report to be accurate, and his fellow players' comments to be sincere, the Bieber Build failed to meet their expectations. The OP blames that friction on his character's being a "Generalist". From what I've seen, that was not their objection. I believe his character was simply weaker than they were happy with.
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And I would say that if the OP's generalist actually contributed to the negative performance of other player's specialists, then they might have a viable gripe.
But, based on the report (and, given that's all we have to go on, coupled with the assumption of good faith on the part of OP), the other player's griping about his generalist? They're just dicks, pure and simple. There's no defense of them, and so, in that context, their hatred of a generalist is completely irrational.
His play experience is actually proof that allegations that generalists are useless are hogwash, and that any general hatred that exists towards them is equally irrational.
Ummm...WHAT?!? We know they had concerns about his character but do you even have a GLIMPSE of WHY from what the OP posted? Because I sure as hell don't see it. I sure as heck don't see they are being dicks either...especially since the OP SPECIFICALLY says they were NOT.
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One game, we had a new player come in, a friend of the dm.
So I made a generalist fighter for him, who was decent at fighting, but also good at social and investigation. The coolest town guardsman ever.
The dm killed him so viciously and with such reckless abandon, it was like the dm was offended by the chars very presence. Even though this type of char was helpful to get through book two of runelords.
My char tried to save him, to no avail, I was hurt (I made that char damn it! He was Sherlock Holmes with a polearm, what a badass), and not surprisingly, the character didn't come back.
So yeah, that dm hated effective generalists, and pushed us all to become combat wombat specialists, or perish (and then many of us still died, we had a tpk too).
APs have been getting more and more brutal as of late...that said, they can be done without uber combat monkies. You do however have to know a good deal of how to play the game well. Consumables are your friends. There are items you just MUST spend your money on that negates a lot of the your gonna die effects and not just the big 6.
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So, the OP built a self buffing Monk who can use divine magic items without need of UMD, has great ability to identify monsters and this improve non meta gamed tactics for the party...and people are saying he's useless?
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
He may not be useless NOW...but how about at level 4? 7? 10? If the OP is gonna be a regular, higher level is definitely a concern. If I saw his character at a table, I would not be worried when he is playing 1-2 tier where the AC target is like 14ish and they have 4 hps (early season 1-2 are cakewalks). I would worry what his character is gonna be like when he has to play higher tiers however.
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He may not be useless NOW...but how about at level 4? 7? 10? If the OP is gonna be a regular, higher level is definitely a concern. If I saw his character at a table, I would not be worried when he is playing 1-2 tier where the AC target is like 14ish and they have 4 hps (early season 1-2 are cakewalks). I would worry what his character is gonna be like when he has to play higher tiers however.So, the OP built a self buffing Monk who can use divine magic items without need of UMD, has great ability to identify monsters and this improve non meta gamed tactics for the party...and people are saying he's useless?
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
And?
It is not a campaign, there is no story continuity pushing him in keeping the same character.He used several different inquisitors. Then he used a different second level character. Tomorrow, if he wishes, he can start a new first level character and level it up to replace the monk/oracle.
From what I see people have several different tiers character and characters with a different set of abilities, so there is nothing forcing him to use this character if it under-perform at level 7 or at level 10.
At the current level it work. In future? Well, it is PFS, so he can use a different character every time he sit to play and no one has the right to complain as long as he has the appropriate level.
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He may not be useless NOW...but how about at level 4? 7? 10? If the OP is gonna be a regular, higher level is definitely a concern. If I saw his character at a table, I would not be worried when he is playing 1-2 tier where the AC target is like 14ish and they have 4 hps (early season 1-2 are cakewalks). I would worry what his character is gonna be like when he has to play higher tiers however.So, the OP built a self buffing Monk who can use divine magic items without need of UMD, has great ability to identify monsters and this improve non meta gamed tactics for the party...and people are saying he's useless?
Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.
And?
It is not a campaign, there is no story continuity pushing him in keeping the same character.
He used several different inquisitors. Then he used a different second level character. Tomorrow, if he wishes, he can start a new first level character and level it up to replace the monk/oracle.
From what I see people have several different tiers character and characters with a different set of abilities, so there is nothing forcing him to use this character if it under-perform at level 7 or at level 10.
At the current level it work. In future? Well, it is PFS, so he can use a different character every time he sit to play and no one has the right to complain as long as he has the appropriate level.
Umm...no. EVERYBODY has a right to complain. This is a free country after all. They don't have a right to make him play something he does not want to however. But complain...yeah we can all do that as much as we want. If you don't like it, your free to leave (or if you own the place, make the complainers leave).
As for different characters...yes, he can start a fresh new character next game. And if this is a small PFS group that has one table, what will that do to their mustering? Will his level 1-2 play in the 4-5 tier since all the other people who didn't do this end up in that tier? Even if we assume 2 tables, that will usually be done low 1-7 and high is 7-11...which will once again still lead to him playing in tier issue. Or should EVERYONE else make level 1 characters too to keep him happy? Does that sound fair? This is a co-operative game. YOUR choices isn't about JUST you, it's about EVERYONE you play with. Something I think many gamers today seem to have forgotten about...not just in PFS.
Are these fair assumptions for future groups/sessions?
I think they are. Remember every group is different even between stores in a local area. There's no such thing as a perfect character, so don't sweat it too much, and people are almost always willing to help with anything in my experience. You don't have to work to meet the expectations of others, but you should probably try to meet some of the expectations of PFS scenarios. Being well rounded is actually good for PFS where you don't know who your with, but don't spread yourself too thin in any game.
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2) talk to people more. Learn what they want or expect. I admit I should have do e this earlier but I was the new and just thought it best to roll and shout. Clearly a mistake
This is why I would describe the other players as the jerks.
PFS is a gateway for new players. As such, experienced players should guide newer players toward creating fun and effective characters.
Many of the experienced players in this thread are doing an excellent job of that!
The players at the OP's table instead just criticized, which is not helpful.
Instead of saying, "your build is weak!" they could have said, "I know that Power Attack seems awesome, but for your monk the trade off isn't worth it. Consider Dodge or Weapon Focus instead."
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Out of curiosity aren't you capable in PFS of "locking" a character at a certain level and having him remain there? I seem to remember that rule at one point though I've personally never used it.
So you could keep him at low levels.
Going by the spirit of the rules...no. With some dickery with the reporting system...there may technically be a loophole or two still there. That said...don't. I do believe that abuse of the system like that is liable to get one banned from PFS (because when you do it, you may not gain levels, but you gain wealth and it tossed things into bad bad land).
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2) talk to people more. Learn what they want or expect. I admit I should have do e this earlier but I was the new and just thought it best to roll and shout. Clearly a mistakeThis is why I would describe the other players as the jerks.
PFS is a gateway for new players. As such, experienced players should guide newer players toward creating fun and effective characters.
Many of the experienced players in this thread are doing an excellent job of that!
The players at the OP's table instead just criticized, which is not helpful.
Instead of saying, "your build is weak!" they could have said, "I know that Power Attack seems awesome, but for your monk the trade off isn't worth it. Consider Dodge or Weapon Focus instead."
We don't know they did not offer help. We don't know a WHOLE slew of things other then the OP reported that they were NOT JERKS but that they DID complain about his build. Why are people on this board have such a freaking hard on to say that they were jerks when the OP has already said they were NOT.
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Interesting. That reflects more on what this community has become than I'd hoped, sadly.Great. So we've established that PFS players, or Pathfinder players, or humans generally, are jerks.
You're surprised?
No one is forcing you to play. Pizza can be delivered and Minecraft has a single player mode. You never need leave your cave.
You can't control other people's behavior. You'll only frustrate yourself if you try. Keeping that in mind, do as you see fit.
So your answer to someone who faces occasional jerks in a game is to give the game away and stay hidden in a cave. Nice one.
My advice would be to try some different groups. From this, identify a series of people with like minded ideas and ways of playing and enjoying the game. From this group of people, see if you can put together a game independent of PFS.
This way, you don't run the risk of coming across jerks, you still get to paly and you're having a great time where no one is suffering (including the jerks).
As a mature member of the gaming community, I'd like to see less jerks in the game. Unfortunately, as you say, you can't change folks. At least in my approach you still get to play and generally meet some really great folks as well.
Unfortunately, my method can lead to less amicable people playing PFS (or organised play of any type really), since they're all off playing in games together in their own homes etc. Not good for organised play, but until they come up with a method for reducing the amount of amazingly rude and bullying behaviour that I've witnessed in organised play then that's what will happen.
Some people have to play organised play because they don't know people in the region to get a home game. Some people play because no one lets them in their home game. Eventually the first group finds nice folks to play with. The second group don't.
Cheers
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]Part of the issue here is that this character was introduced at 2nd level as the last allowed rebuild of his character, who'd been an Inquisitor up until then. It was too late to offer any real advice. Once play started everything was set in stone.
Well, let's tackle it from here then. Now that this dual class is set in stone how can we help the OP make it better?
Cheers
So your answer to someone who faces occasional jerks in a game is to give the game away and stay hidden in a cave. Nice one.
No, my advice was to work with the jerks. But you rejected that idea out of hand, which limits the tools I have lying around in the shed. Proposing that you murder them all and feast on the raw flesh of their corpses seemed a distant third, but since you've now rejected my second suggestion as well,....
IMHO, he's probably best of going with all Monk from now on out.
He can already freely access divine wands (up to 3rd level) and for scrolls he could pick up some Caster Level boosts to help if he wanted (those help his own slots as well).
Otherwise, Monk is better for skills to leverage the Knowledge stuff (or anything else) and not delaying progression in Monk abilities seems a good idea given up to 3rd level spells can be accessed by wand/scroll. The only other revelation I really think he might like would be "Think On It" (re-roll with +10, 1/day), but he can take that via Feat if he wants. Otherwise, he's just trying to do a Monk build, with CHA substituting for DEX (except for Ranged and AoOs and CMD) but otherwise similar stat build to the norm (not min-maxed out, but definitely the norm IMHO). Is there a Monk Guide, because I don't see any more special advice needed. I already wrote that Weapon Focus is a better idea than Power Attack, esp. at lowest levels.
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No, my advice was to work with the jerks. But you rejected that idea out of hand, which limits the tools I have lying around in the shed. Proposing that you murder them all and feast on the raw flesh of their corpses seemed a distant third, but since you've now rejected my second suggestion as well,....
So your answer to someone who faces occasional jerks in a game is to give the game away and stay hidden in a cave. Nice one.
Why raw? I would say roasted with a nice chianti sauce and some fava beans....
Why raw? I would say roasted with a nice chianti sauce and some fava beans....No, my advice was to work with the jerks. But you rejected that idea out of hand, which limits the tools I have lying around in the shed. Proposing that you murder them all and feast on the raw flesh of their corpses seemed a distant third, but since you've now rejected my second suggestion as well,....
So your answer to someone who faces occasional jerks in a game is to give the game away and stay hidden in a cave. Nice one.
hey all. Six days ago I found myself in a strange position in a PFS game with a group that I have played with enough to get to level 2 with and need an outside perspective to understand it.
In the previous weeks I had shown up as an inquisitor, though the specifics of how I played him such as race, stats, and intended purpose changed each time. Each time I took various aspects of an inquisitor to the extreme that I could such as a face with double digits in charisma skills, a maxed out fighter of that class, and then the skill monkey. No one had anything bad to say about it ( to my face anyway) on any of the occasions.
Lv 2 came along, I knew who was what and revealed a generalist build and got lots of flack for it. before going further ill show what the group consisted of....
LV2 oracle specializing in necromancy and face skills, LV2 dervish cleric, LV2 warhammer paladin, LV2 elven wizard, 1 Rogue/1 Ranger based on Bow.
Seeing that all the four basic types were represented I wanted to play a guy who I thought was just plain fun for me. It ended up being an aasimar oracle/monk who dumped DX and used lore revelations to replace charisma for dx for AC and reflex purposes in addition to using charisma for knowledge checks. He was envisioned as a Justin Bieber who just adventured from time to time but I refused to play a bard ;)
The group continuously asked me why I would use this combination and made comments on how useless I was. I made a few key skill checks that the other specialized flubbed and felt proud but a condemnation of their fellow players dice was what they spoke of rather than "hey thx for the save there". as a combatant I was nowhere near as good as the paladin but I got a few licks in for moderate damage (certainly more than the oracle who did no damage).
IS this a bad group to be with or is this a sign of pathfinder on the whole? Even on these forums I notice that most do not favor multiclassing or anything that takes away from their chosen specialty. Skill...
A build that is weak a few levels in, is not necessarily weak after a few more levels. Some people demand your character be strong and capable now now now! Well, it might take some time.
It reminds me of the old cleric/monk in neverwinter nights, that was rubbish at level 2, but very strong at high levels. Consider it character development, do what you wish and tell them you have taken their comments on-board, but that you are sticking with it.
People sure do like to complain about other people's characters. This is unfortunate, but it is their fault, not yours.
Also, the last time I played a weak build in a PF game, I had an immense amount of fun. My weaknesses were balanced by canny tactics, good timing and a fine base speed carrying me away from trouble. Very enjoyable, did my part, didn't listen to what the group wanted from my character. Great sessions.
Be the maverick. Lol.
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Also, the last time I played a weak build in a PF game, I had an immense amount of fun. My weaknesses were balanced by canny tactics, good timing and a fine base speed carrying me away from trouble. Very enjoyable, did my part, didn't listen to what the group wanted from my character. Great sessions.
Be the maverick. Lol.
Great session for you I have no doubt. Was it great for everyone ELSE? Because you see, without that second part, there are issues.
To the OP: They were mean girls. I'm sorry they've given you such an impression of PFS. Don't worry, there are other, nicer PFS people out there-- like on these boards.
It's true a monk/oracle is an awful combo without much synergy. It would have been better if someone at your table had said, "Gee, I'm not sure what you're going for here. If you'd describe what you'd like your character to be able to do, maybe I can help you be really great at it."
And that's what you can do on these boards. Describe what you'd like your character to be able to do and we can help you get there.
Saying "generalist" is too well, general.
Do you want face skills, knowledge skills, or sneaky skills?
Do you want big-weapon fighting, two-weapon fighting, unarmed fighting, or ranged fighting?
Do you want spellcasting? If so... buffing, or healing, or enchanting, or blasting, or summoning?
And if you try to say yes to everything... then be a bard. The ultimate jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none (but decent at many)
Otherwise, let us know what you're really drawn to, and some people here are terrific character builders and will help you get there.
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Great session for you I have no doubt. Was it great for everyone ELSE? Because you see, without that second part, there are issues.Also, the last time I played a weak build in a PF game, I had an immense amount of fun. My weaknesses were balanced by canny tactics, good timing and a fine base speed carrying me away from trouble. Very enjoyable, did my part, didn't listen to what the group wanted from my character. Great sessions.
Be the maverick. Lol.
The party doesn't get to tell me what I play. They have their characters to play. They had some fun, but there is also a line in the sand (or temperate terrain) as to what is their business and what is mine. The dm also saw the build as weak, until it got into action. From that, I took steps to move the plot forward and use this weak character to rp, so popular opinion and people being offended about builds can go shove it, in this situation. This is also the reason I follow equalizer's example, of keeping my character sheet and its details hidden from players (but not of course the dm). I don't want to hear their analysis, opinions or suggestions. I'm here to play a game.
This is very similar to the first poster; and my stance is bullying of another player because the group looks down on their build, is not on.
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1) my first mistake was taking a short term view of character design. This was largely based on my playing PFS and ur progress being a third of normal but I should looked beyond even LV 5. Solution get another character or maybe switch another fresh starting group in a few weeks.
I think switching characters is an excellent decision. Switching groups is probably unnecessary, but as a new PFS player, you could build a new 1st level character, shop around for a number of scenarios with different groups, and quickly catch up to your existing group's level.
About planning beyond level 5, have you ever played a higher level game? If not, planning beyond the levels you played is difficult. The game gradually changes as you rise in level, and while we could describe the differences to you, it's difficult to comprehend without experiencing it for yourself. All of Pathfinder's base classes are built to last 20 levels, so it's difficult to mess up if you stay single classed and get just a tiny bit of advice once in a while.
2) talk to people more. Learn what they want or expect. I admit I should have done this earlier but I was the new and just thought it best to roll and shout. Clearly a mistake.
If you're very experienced, "roll and shout" is easier to pull off. But if you're new, it's a good idea to consult with your play group before making any permanent decisions.
For one thing, you'll get a lot of good advice. For another, asking people for a little help with your character makes them feel good, like you respect their opinion, and gives them a personal stake in the success of your character. If some random guy shows up to my PFS game, makes a terrible decision in combat, and dies, I don't feel too bad. If someone I know makes the same bad combat move with a character I helped build, I'm more likely to put my neck on the line in an attempt to save them.
3) take a more front line fighter or caster role. I have been convinced that people won't turn down those.
Front line, caster, archer, you should be good at some kind of combat. It's great to have skills, utility spells, and miscellaneous out of combat abilities! But, if you don't have a way to defeat monsters after the initiative roll, you're going to have a bad time.
With some of the comments made let us c if I can learn some lessons. . . Are these fair assumptions for future groups/sessions?
Yep, you're on the right track!
By the way, I criticized your character build, but taking advantage of Sidestep Secret with a monk was clever. This attempt didn't work out, but you've got the right idea on how to read abilities and see what might work together.
You have a great attitude. I'm happy to see you here as a forum participant, and I'd be happy to have you at my gaming table.
Happy gaming!
If you go front line fighter, won't people complain front line fighters are weak and tell you to change it? >:D
Ignore opinions, collect fun.
If you go front line fighter, won't people complain front line fighters are weak and tell you to change it?
PFS only goes to level 12, and rarely that high. "Full house, three wizard and two clerics, I win!" doesn't really kick in yet during PFS levels.
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Great session for you I have no doubt. Was it great for everyone ELSE? Because you see, without that second part, there are issues.Also, the last time I played a weak build in a PF game, I had an immense amount of fun. My weaknesses were balanced by canny tactics, good timing and a fine base speed carrying me away from trouble. Very enjoyable, did my part, didn't listen to what the group wanted from my character. Great sessions.
Be the maverick. Lol.
The party doesn't get to tell me what I play. They have their characters to play. They had some fun, but there is also a line in the sand (or temperate terrain) as to what is their business and what is mine. The dm also saw the build as weak, until it got into action. From that, I took steps to move the plot forward and use this weak character to rp, so popular opinion and people being offended about builds can go shove it, in this situation. This is also the reason I follow equalizer's example, of keeping my character sheet and its details hidden from players (but not of course the dm). I don't want to hear their analysis, opinions or suggestions. I'm here to play a game.
This is very similar to the first poster; and my stance is bullying of another player because the group looks down on their build, is not on.
So in YOUR case, everyone had fun...good. That does not mean this was the case THIS time. You can play what you want. If what you play is not fun for me, I can tell you so. If you keep doing it, I can stop playing with you. Everyone else in the group does the same and your not gonna be in a PFS table anymore since the GM option is the 6 other players...or you. Taking a hard ass it's my way or the high way is a great way to get left out of the game. This is a co-op game...so stop acting like your actions have no impact on anyone else...or worse, actually NOT CARING THAT IT DOES (this is what we like to call griefer and they aren't welcome in pretty much ANY gaming communities).
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If you go front line fighter, won't people complain front line fighters are weak and tell you to change it?PFS only goes to level 12, and rarely that high. "Full house, three wizard and two clerics, I win!" doesn't really kick in yet during PFS levels.
Well...considering that happens at 5+ if you have good caster players...not sure I agree with that. But then again, I don't see too many good caster players in PFS...kinda makes me sad :( .
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I do plan for higher than 5 yes. have old character designs I keep around because I dream of playing them but frankly I cant remember EVER going past 10th in even home games. So I frankly admit that any concept of a character beyond 5th level is almost beyond my comprehension. Its actually one reason why I like monks, as at lower levels the power difference isn't that much at that point. the two times I went above 5th was a paladin and inquisitor in case its of interest.
Well PFS doesn't go much above 10...currently. In anycase, the game really does get turned on it's head at 5-7+. The 5-9 and 7-11 scenarios just can't be done like the 1-5, 3-7 and even the 1-7 scenarios. You may wanna try out a couple of the 5-9 or 7-11 using a pre-gen to see what they are like and so you can sort of plan for that. You can even apply the chronicle sheets to a new character (with adjusted gold of course).
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So in YOUR case, everyone had fun...good. That does not mean this was the case THIS time. You can play what you want. If what you play is not fun for me, I can tell you so. If you keep doing it, I can stop playing with you. Everyone else in the group does the same and your not gonna be in a PFS table anymore since the GM option is the 6 other players...or you. Taking a hard ass it's my way or the high way is a great way to get left out of the game. This is a co-op game...so stop acting like your actions have no impact on anyone else...or worse, actually NOT CARING THAT IT DOES (this is what we like to call griefer and they aren't welcome...Great session for you I have no doubt. Was it great for everyone ELSE? Because you see, without that second part, there are issues.Also, the last time I played a weak build in a PF game, I had an immense amount of fun. My weaknesses were balanced by canny tactics, good timing and a fine base speed carrying me away from trouble. Very enjoyable, did my part, didn't listen to what the group wanted from my character. Great sessions.
Be the maverick. Lol.
The party doesn't get to tell me what I play. They have their characters to play. They had some fun, but there is also a line in the sand (or temperate terrain) as to what is their business and what is mine. The dm also saw the build as weak, until it got into action. From that, I took steps to move the plot forward and use this weak character to rp, so popular opinion and people being offended about builds can go shove it, in this situation. This is also the reason I follow equalizer's example, of keeping my character sheet and its details hidden from players (but not of course the dm). I don't want to hear their analysis, opinions or suggestions. I'm here to play a game.
This is very similar to the first poster; and my stance is bullying of another player because the group looks down on their build, is not on.
They had fun with the game, some did not have fun when they tried to tell me what to do, and what character I should play.
The, there is no I in team attitude is not why I play games. I love teamwork and finishing quests, solving investigations or puzzles, great rp with pcs and npcs alike, but meta-gamey "you shouldn't play that, I think it is crap". I have no time for it.
It is very dodgy for a majority to kick a player because they didn't like the character build, or that its bab was not high enough, or dpr. I have however, heard of this happening.
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Roll-play vs. Role-play; for those in this thread who are suggesting that there are "slots to be filled in the group" and "everyone has a job to do" and "you need to pull your weight", I might remind you that there are often new players sitting down to the table who may be experiencing an RPG for (perhaps) the first time, or close-to the first time, or simply want to try playing in a public venue for once.
Example: I recall one afternoon where a mom brought her son in (he must have been about 12 or so) and it was very clear she wanted him OUT OF THE HOUSE and interacting with other people. Our group stepped-up and welcomed him in, and made an adventurer out of him (most of my buffs went to him). He got to experience the game and (we hope) had a positive experience that would bring him back for more.
Now...contrast this with (shall we call it an elitist attitude?) of "we're a finely honed commando team and there are slots to be filled and you need to pull your weight or the GM won't give us candy bars harumph!" If you're THAT elitist, I might suggest you take a deep breath, and relax. Yes, you have a point, but remember this is a social game and it's all about the fun...and last I checked there were no prizes given out for "winning" at Pathfinder Society Play.
A good GM can run a dungeon with a party of hobbits armed with spoons.
And while I'm ranting, I dislike the trend towards using "PFS" as a benchmark for all things uber-gamer.
/rant off
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They had fun with the game, some did not have fun when they tried to tell me what to do, and what character I should play.
The, there is no I in team attitude is not why I play games. I love teamwork and finishing quests, solving investigations or puzzles, great rp with pcs and npcs alike, but meta-gamey you shouldn't play that, I think it is crap. I have no time for it.
So...some people were miffed at your character choice? Umm...they have that right. You think people can't tell you what to play, but you can tell them what they should FEEL? I don't think so. They were mad at your choice, they have EVERY RIGHT TO BE. Or are you so hypocritical that you think you can do whatever you want but people can't feel what the feel about it. Yeah yeah, the game went well and people had fun...that's nice. That does not happen EVERY time now does it. Sometimes, the choices you make will fubar things up. The sub-optimal build could have been the cause of a failure. A PC death or a TPK. Now had you actually talked and hashed things out with everyone at the table, you all shrug, go well it happens, have a laugh and join up next week for a game. Now if it had happened with your attitude, I suspect you would not have been welcomed back so easily...if at all. This is a co-op game, this is a social game. If you don't have time to care about the other fellow players, why should they care about YOU? Because seriously, with an attitude like that, I would quickly ask you to not be at tables I am at (and I'll pretty much play with any crackpot builds out there...I don't care about the build...I care about if the player I am playing with a nice person who is fun to spend 4 hours with once a week).
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A good GM can run a dungeon with a party of hobbits armed with spoons.And while I'm ranting, I dislike the trend towards using "PFS" as a benchmark for all things uber-gamer.
/rant off
1) No they can't. Not unless the GM isn't running a proper PFS game...which is whole other slew of issues (both amping up and down).
2) Have you seen the latest APs...they kick the living snot out of even season 4 stuff. Take your level 7 PFS character and try it out in book 3 of shatter stars. Your average PFS player will get slaughtered. Now try getting a PFS character to 18 (you can) and try the last section of that AP. Yeah...the term your so gonna die comes to mind. PFS is honestly on the casual side of difficulty with season 4 reaching average difficulty. APs are more average with a few above average books.
If the OP chooses to pursue his current path, he can armor himself against their continued griping with the heartwarming thought that they're irrational. Given that they are human, this should go without saying, but he may nevertheless find in your rhetoric some comfort.Alternatively, he could decide that he doesn't want to be griped at, try to understand why they're griping, and take appropriate actions.
I.e., you can continue to park on the street and pay money to have your windshield repaired, knowing that the people who smash them are "just dicks, pure and simple. There's no defense of them, and so, in that context [smashing your windshield] is completely irrational."
Or you can park your car in the garage and save yourself some hassle.
And those appropriate actions are essentially kowtowing to the group's desires and not playing a generalist? It sounds like no matter what the answer to the OP's questions are nor whether or not he's in the right playing a generalist, the answer is the same - play a specialist to appease the peer pressure.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Roll-play vs. Role-play; for those in this thread who are suggesting that there are "slots to be filled in the group" and "everyone has a job to do" and "you need to pull your weight", I might remind you that there are often new players sitting down to the table who may be experiencing an RPG for (perhaps) the first time, or close-to the first time, or simply want to try playing in a public venue for once.
Example: I recall one afternoon where a mom brought her son in (he must have been about 12 or so) and it was very clear she wanted him OUT OF THE HOUSE and interacting with other people. Our group stepped-up and welcomed him in, and made an adventurer out of him (most of my buffs went to him). He got to experience the game and (we hope) had a positive experience that would bring him back for more.
Now...contrast this with (shall we call it an elitist attitude?) of "we're a finely honed commando team and there are slots to be filled and you need to pull your weight or the GM won't give us candy bars harumph!" If you're THAT elitist, I might suggest you take a deep breath, and relax. Yes, you have a point, but remember this is a social game and it's all about the fun...and last I checked there were no prizes given out for "winning" at Pathfinder Society Play.
A good GM can run a dungeon with a party of hobbits armed with spoons.
And while I'm ranting, I dislike the trend towards using "PFS" as a benchmark for all things uber-gamer.
/rant off
Yeah, not everyone has great game mastery, gets with the powergaming/optimisation program or cares for those type of things.
If a party is a bit weaker than a path expects, the dm can grind them into lettuce or make some adjustments.