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I think the general idea is Hide In Plain Sight lets you use stealth even when you are observed, and remember that the Shadowdancer version allows this only when you are within 10ft of dim light, not in darker light conditions. So if you are within a dark area, but within 10ft of dim light then you can use HiPS. If you a 20ft and in the dark you cannot.
Specific rules trump general rules.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
I agree with Claxon. To throw a tiny bit more support behind his position, note that HiPS is a supernatural ability, not an extraordinary ability. The shadowdancer is doing something magical.
I think what the OP is asking is how HiPS works against darkvision. I believe the answer would be that if you're using darkness and shadow to hide, you will still be visible to those who have darkvison and you are within it's range. Dwarves and half-orcs see as well in darkness as they do in light. If you're relying on shadows and darkness to hide, it's ineffective against those with darkvision.No. If you're using darkness to hide, you're not using HiPS. If you're using HiPS, the nearby dim light allows you to hide even if you're being observed. It's magic. Someone with Darkvision would be able to observe you, but HiPS lets you use Stealth anyway.
I agree with thejeff.
I was thinking how cool is a shadowdancer until I read about darkvision :
"Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
So... Is that mean a shadowdancer ability to hide in plain sight within 10 feet of a shadow is meaningless ?
A few things to remember:
1) Shadowdancer HIPS is different from rogue HIPS. Rogue HIPS does not actually let you hide in plain sight. Shadowdancer HIPS does.
2) This is a contentious and subjective area of rules interpretation, so ask your DM before you go building your character around it. The problem is that things like dim light bright light etc are relative to the observer, while the shadowdancer HIPS relies on an objective existence of a shadow.
I believe that the human authors of the book wrote in "an area of dim light" as its meant to be seen from the perspective of a human with "normal" vision.
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I was thinking how cool is a shadowdancer until I read about darkvision:
"Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."
So... Is that mean a shadowdancer ability to hide in plain sight within 10 feet of a shadow is meaningless?
This question has been asked many times on the forums. Searching through some old threads would probably be a good idea. Here is a pre-canned argument I have about Darkvision and HiPS for your reading pleasure:
Firstly, here is why Ranger HiPS would be utterly unaffected by Darkvision. Ranger HiPS has exactly ZERO to do with shadows and concealment. It has 100% to do with the Ranger's intimate knowledge of his Favored Terrains. When in his Favored Terrain he can use Camouflage and HiPS whether it is in bright light, normal light, dim light, or darkness and no amount of seeing through shadows will affect that in any way.
....
Now there are several completely separate reasons why I think that Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS would trump Darkvison. Let's examine the actual text defining Darkvision. A lot of people get hung up on that one sentence in the Vision and Light section of the rules; the part I have in bold:
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
But this isn't what Darkvision is, it is just a simple explanation of how Darkvision interacts with the normal, non-magical, ambient light conditions of the world. It does not take into account in any way, special cases or abilities; it is just how DV interacts with the light conditions. Now what I want to draw your attention to, and what most people tend to avoid or forget, is the text in the Glossary section of rules describing what DV actually is. Pay particular attention to the highlighted sections:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
And now I want you to look back up to the first quote and pay particular attention to the first sentence: "Characters with darkvision can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas..." When we combine those parts we have some fluff, and we have some mechanics. The mechanics are what is important here, and they are:
1) DV allows you to see in dark areas (dim light, darkness) as well as you would normally see in lit areas (bright light, normal light). Which means that while shadows still exist in the radius of their vision, they see everything within that radius AS IF it were in fact normal light. And that is all it means. They don't have beams of light coming from their eyes melting away the shadows. The shadows are still there, they just don't affect the accuracy of Darkvision sight the way they affect basic and low-light vision sight. (This by the way is 100% the reason why you can't use Stealth within the radius of DV unless you have cover or invisibility. It has nothing to do with dissolving the shadows in that radius. It has to do with you being able to see as if you were in the normal lighting condition. Read the normal lighting condition, it says you may not use Stealth without cover or invisibility.)
2) Darkvision allows you to see with no light source at all. So there is no light and you can still see. You are not producing flames from your eyes that burn away shadows. If you wanted to explain it the way Night Vision Goggles work, that is fine, but it still has no actual affect on the mechanics. You are not producing any kind of visible light that would change the lighting conditions in the radius of your vision. The shadows are still there, it is still dim light or darkness, you are simply able to see regardless of that fact.
3) Lastly, darkvision does not allow you to see anything you could not otherwise see of which, magical effects would be the most common things in that category, but it's not exclusive. This is just saying you aren't gaining any type of magical vision; you are simply able to see in darkness as if you were in normal light.
....
Now after breaking Darkvision down in that manner, why do I feel Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS are both able to trump Darkvision? I would think it is fairly obvious where I am going with this but I will break that down as well:
1) Darkvision is (EX) and Shadowdancer/Assassin HiPS is (SU). I generally don't allow natural (EX) abilities that a number of PCs, NPCs, and Monsters are born with to outclass a hard earned (SU) ability that my players have spent a great deal of time and character resources achieving (unless it is specifically stated, as it is in the darkness spell for instance, but in the case of DV vs HiPS it is not). That would be a fairly stupid, dick-ish, and anti-PC thing to do IMO.
2) The description of Darkvision actually comes out and explicitly states that it is not magical and does not allow you to see through magical effects. HiPS (SU) is a magical effect, all Supernatural Abilities are:
Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability's effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.
3) Darkvision eliminates a creature's ability to hide based on the concealment granted by the lighting conditions. However, Shadowdancer and Assassin HiPS allows them to use Stealth based on a whole different set of parameters. They are not using the concealment granted by the shadows. They are using the empowerment of a magical ability granted to them by mere proximity to shadows. As explicitly stated above, Darkvision does not eliminate the shadows in the area, it simply allows the creature to see as if in normal lighting conditions, which eliminates the effect of concealment only. Again, the Shadowdancer/Assassin is not using concealment to hide; he is using the presence of the shadows, which are still very much there.
4) Lastly, Darkvision only allows you to see normally in dark areas as if it were a lit area, but does not allow you to see anything you could not otherwise see, magical or not. So I pose this example: A creature with normal vision is looking at a Shadowdancer who is standing in normal light but is also within 10' of dim light. The Shadowdancer attempts Stealth and is successful, he disappears. No one argues that this isn't an acceptable use of the HiPS ability. It is exactly what the ability states the Shadowdancer may do. He can be standing in normal light (where generally he would need cover or invisibility to hide) and use Stealth as long as he is within 10' of dim light. So I ask you this, why do you say that the Shadowdancer can hide in broad daylight from the creature with normal or low-light vision, but can't hide in shadows from the creature with darkvision? Before you answer, think carefully about what I said about DV. It doesn't allow you to see anything you couldn’t normally see, and it only allows you to see as if you there were normal light conditions. (IE: If the guy with NORMAL vision can't see you in NORMAL LIGHT, then the guy with DARKVISION can't see you in DIM LIGHT/DARKNESS.)
…
Also here are a few quotes from JJ on the matter. He’s not the official rules guy but he is the creative director of the design team for Pathfinder and knows his stuff pretty well. Quote 1 and Quote 2. In these quotes JJ says Lowlight Vision and Darkvision won't necessarily negate HiPS.
1) Shadowdancer HIPS is different from rogue HIPS. Rogue HIPS does not actually let you hide in plain sight. Shadowdancer HIPS does.
What do you mean?
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): A rogue with this talent can select a single terrain from the ranger's favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed. A rogue may take this advanced talent more than once, each time selecting a different terrain from the favored terrain list.
It explicitly says you can hide in plain sight.
2) ...ask your DM before you go building your character around it...
This is always good advice.
The problem is that things like dim light bright light etc are relative to the observer, while the shadowdancer HIPS relies on an objective existence of a shadow.
THIS should answer that question. It doesn't matter how an outside viewer precieves the lighting conditions, it's objective for the purposes of a Shadowdancer using his ability to Hide in Plain Sight.
I finally Understand Shadows logic after our Crazy discussions in previous threads on Stealth.
My only Opinion on this is that Shadow Dancers and The Jeff posted this in previous thread is they blend light and Darkness. So for a Shadow Dancer to use their HiPS power they require that Dim light to within Reach. Unlike the Ranger's and the Rogues HiPS they are specifically Terrain based which changes all manner of rules.
That is the only Logical reason a Shadow Dancer requires light for their ability to function. But regardless of whether they are in A Pitch Black room or out on a Sunny under a Tree that offers dim light, they can stealth. The ability works no matter where they are standing as long as they meet the one requirement.
I guess I should have posted this argument in the other thread. I was trying to avoid that, since it wasn't a question of HiPS but rather another similar ability.
Also, I didn't mean to offend you in our previous debate. I really thought either you didn't understand what I meant to say, or I just wasn't explaining it clearly enough. I wasn't trying to insult you.
she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed. A rogue may take this advanced talent more than once, each time selecting a different terrain from the favored terrain list.
It explicitly says you can hide in plain sight.
It says you can hide while being observed. Unlike the shadowdancer HIPS, it does not allow you to ignore the cover and concealment requirements for hiding. You generally need both to hide.
She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
vs
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.
In general, the consensus is that darkvision has no effect on HiPS. (It can have an effect on Stealth, yes. If there’s darkness you can hide without HiPS if your foe does not have darkvision). Note the whole term “Hide in plain SIGHT”. Thus, even tho they can see you (dark, normal or low) you can hide. This is debatable, but not much. The Devs postings have made this pretty clear.
Mind you, the RAW seems to say that attacking from Stealth does not make your foe lose his dex, which does limit this. Unless you can use the Stealth blog, which is highly suggested as a houserule. This is a huge debate. The devs postings have indicated that they agree that the RAW (no sneak attack from stealth) does not agree with the RAI, and they suggest playing RAI.
There’s also a possible debate about how the various “versions’ of “HiPS” work. This seems to be mostly a error caused by cut & paste.
Over all, just ask your DM.
How he runs Stealth and Paladins are both important things to know.
In general, the consensus is that darkvision has no effect on HiPS. (It can have an effect on Stealth, yes. If there’s darkness you can hide without HiPS if your foe does not have darkvision). Note the whole term “Hide in plain SIGHT”. Thus, even tho they can see you (dark, normal or low) you can hide. This is debatable, but not much. The Devs postings have made this pretty clear.
Mind you, the RAW seems to say that attacking from Stealth does not make your foe lose his dex, which does limit this. Unless you can use the Stealth blog, which is highly suggested as a houserule. This is a huge debate. The devs postings have indicated that they agree that the RAW (no sneak attack from stealth) does not agree with the RAI, and they suggest playing RAI.
There’s also a possible debate about how the various “versions’ of “HiPS” work. This seems to be mostly a error caused by cut & paste.
Over all, just ask your DM.
How he runs Stealth and Paladins are both important things to know.
In regard to Stealth not denying an opponent's Dex to AC: Jason Bulmahn said in the Stealth Errata thread that Stealth is meant to deny dex and quotes the rule that is meant to imply that.
Creatures are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC "if they cannot react to a blow" (CR pg 179 under AC). It was our intent that if you are unaware of a threat, you cannot react to a blow. I think we probably should have spelled this out a wee bit clearer, but space in the Stealth description was extraordinarily tight and ever word was at a premium. That said, I think these changes clear up the situation immensely (compared to where they were.. which was nebulous at best).
They should have spelled it out a LOT clearer. But like I said, I don;t think their intent was in doubt. but yes, now with the errata to Stealth, one can say the RAW does support this.
Still, I could wish for better Stealth rules....
It says you can hide while being observed. Unlike the shadowdancer HIPS, it does not allow you to ignore the cover and concealment requirements for hiding. You generally need both to hide.
She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
vs
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind.
Ok, I see what you mean now. Actually, a while back, I would have been right there with you on this argument. However, I had that same argument about Hellcat Stealth which is worded almost identically to the Rogues talent: HiPS and the Ranger's HiPS (not counting their Camouflage ability). However, Sean K. Reynolds, PF designer and the guy who actually wrote that feat, was asked about it and replied that even though HCS didn't have the bit about not needing cover/concealment it was meant to be full HiPS. I was pointed to this thread where he addressed that argument with Hellcat Stealth.
Regarding the diferences between Hellcat Stealth and Shadowdancer HiPS.
They work similarly. HS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but you have a penalty on the check. HIPS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but it requires a nearby shadow, and has no penalty.
Now, I look at how almost idenically the Rogue Talent is written to HCS and I think, WWSKRD? I ultimately think the advanced rogue talent, like HCS, was meant by the writer to be a FULL version of HiPS. I think the writer probably didn't have rules lawyers in mind when he used that description. All HiPS abilities are supposed to do the same basic thing, just with different triggers.
This is just doing a bad job of trying to say that for darkvision, mere darkness does not provide any concealment within it's range.
It is quite possible for a creature to have concealment from foliage, mist, or murky water.. none of these will darkvision obviate.
That is before we speak about hide in plain sight, or other special rules.
This is just a place in the rules where it is written a little less exactingly than we would like.
-James
+1
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They should have spelled it out a LOT clearer. But like I said, I don;t think their intent was in doubt. but yes, now with the errata to Stealth, one can say the RAW does support this.
Still, I could wish for better Stealth rules....
It supported it before the errata to stealth. The rules did not change to make this possible. You just finally have a developer chiming in to say what the intent was.
very ellaborate and scholar answer,
many thanks
I very much appreciate that and you're welcome.