Class Build Suggestions

[Daethanil]

Hello all, I'm a new Pathfinder player - long time D&D player. So while the ruleset is similar to what I know it does have a large number of small changes that influence the synergy of different class/ability/feats.

I am joining a game in progress for lv.12 characters. The party lost their Rogue, so I'm going to be filling that role. They also lack a ranged damage dealer, so I was hoping to put together this rogue as an archer - probably means some levels of Fighter or Paladin.

Ultimately I'm hoping the experts here have some suggestions or builds - and most importantly can explain why they work. I have no problem doing the work myself, but I don't understand all the synergies yet.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The rogue is mechanically the weakest class in pathfinder. There is nothing a rogue can do that cannot be done better by another class. The traditional role of the rogue has been to deal with traps. Both Bards and Rangers have archetypes that are equally good if not better at dealing with traps.

From what you have said a Ranger may be what you are looking for. Both an urban ranger, and a trapper ranger would work. The trapper ranger gives up spells to be able to not only disarm traps, but also to be able to set up traps. The Urban ranger gives trades the wilderness focused abilities for city based ones, including trap finding.

The Bard has the Archeologist archetype which is probably the best rogue replacement in the game. They trade bards performances for a luck short term luck bonus on nearly everything. They also get a flat out bonus to both all perception rolls, and disable device rolls. They also get rogue talents but not as many as rogue. The only thing that a rogue has that they do not get is sneak attack.

Their spell list includes some spells that make them insanely good at the traditional rogue roles. A invisible, teleporting rogue who can dispel magic is a lot more effective than a mundane rogue. Heroism gives an additional +2 on attacks, saves, and skills that last for 2 hours at 12th level. You get bonuses to all knowledge skills and can even take 20 on them for a limited number of times per day.

[Daethanil]

Sounds like a good solution. Are there any particular feats that you would make certain to always have - if you wanted to play an archer?

[Joe M.]

See: The Guide to the Guides

:-)

[Daethanil]

There are a lot of guides there, I'm working through them. I just don't have time to read them all to know which variants are roguey and which aren't. Which is why I was looking for the cliff notes versions from players/GM's own knowledge.

[wraithstrike]

What specifically are trying to do other than be a ranged attack based character?

[Nicos]

I think that a trapper ranger specialized in longbows would solve all your problems.

[wraithstrike]

I think he is better off with the urban ranger or dipping one level of rogue, or going with an archaeologist bard.

[7heprofessor]

Play a Ranger with the Archery Combat Style and select the following Archetypes:

Urban Ranger and Woodland Skirmisher

Urban Ranger will get you Trapfinding like the Rogue and Disable Device as a class skill.

Woodland Skirmisher will reduce your number of Favored enemies to one, but it will increase your spells-per-day so you can cast Instant Enemy more often and treat everything as your favored enemy.

The Archery Combat Style gets you some great bonus feats. Here are my suggestions:

Level 2: Rapid Shot
Level 6: Improved Precise Shot
Level 10: Manyshot

Take Deadly Aim as your level 3 feat and get yourself a decent strength and a "Mighty" bow to match it and you'll be dealing competitive damage.

Finally, take the Animal Companion Nature Bond and Boon Companion as your level 5 feat. Take any animal companion with an Int of 2 and increase it to 3 when they get to 4 Hit Dice. This will get you a pet that you don't have to teach tricks to that can tank while you stand back and pin-cushion your foes.

Either way...just my 2 cp

[Atarlost]

As to which guides are relevant, it kind of depends on how much rogue you need. If you feel you need the trap spotter rogue talent, which some consider mandatory, you're limited to archaeologist bard or cryptbreaker alchemist so you can skip everything else. Trinam's barbarian has the least rogue in it and all the others are about equal with the rangers having a slight edge because of either favored terrain or wisdom as a casting stat.

Alchemist: The Dr. Strangelob build from Ogre's guide can use dispelling bombs to take out magical traps or you can take the Trap Breaker archetype and have trapfinding. If you feel certain rogue talents are important you can sacrifice some bomb damage and go crypt breaker. If you think dispelling bomb is adequate magical trap handling you may consider grenadier to gt longbow proficiency.

Barbarian: Trinam's BARBARIAN AM SMASH describes a spell sunder build that is far better at dispelling than a wizard and can, past level 6 or 8, pretty much obliterate any magical trap for one rage round. Barbarians aren't bad at the sneaking stuff either. You don't get the 1/2 level to perception to see traps, but you can have trap sense and uncanny dodge to survive those you don't see.

Bard: You want Treeantmonk's archer build with lingering performance crammed in as early as you can to mitigate the archaeologist's lack or scaling performance rounds. The bard-only 4th level spell zone of silence is the ultimate stealth spell. It will no sell any sound based perception from outside its small radius and blindsight and blindsense are usually sonic and tremmorsense always sonic, but since it doesn't really silence you you can cast spells with verbal components and communicate with the message cantrip -- and it's a long duration spell so you can be under it all day.

Oracle: You can drop any standard oracle build into the seeker archetype and you're good to go. An archer using the wood mystery or a flame mystery blaster are probably your best bets

Ranger: If you're low level Treantmonk's guide describes a switch hitter that will serve well. Past level 10, though, the bow can do everything so if you're joining the campaign near or after that point Lastoth's guide is better. He's writing a guide to a specific build, but it's a good build and the parts that urban or trapper sacrifice are nice, but not interdependent with the rest of the build.

Sorcerer: There's a seeker archetype here too. Inner Power looks like the best guide for a blaster if you can't use words of power. If you can use words of power use that guide.

[Darkholme]

For your sneaky character, I'd go with a ranger.

For which Archetype, I would suggest an Urban Ranger (it gives you rogue stuff - no sneak attack, but your regular damage and better bonus to hit more than make up for that). If you don't feel like Naturey Spellcasting, Add Skirmisher to the List. You're probably better off with the spells though.

And here's the Archery Ranger guide, if you want to go archer.

For bringing your horse (you want a horse as your animal companion if possible - read the guide for why) through ladders and ropes and stuff, and spaces small enough that you need to squeeze through, get a real big bag of holding or portable hole or something of the sort. Do the math to figure out what size you need. The horse can breathe inside for like 10 minutes, and you don't have to close it all the way.

It lets you carry the horse (or party members, or what have you) without them being noticed, as a bonus. Put the fighter inside and he won't have to make stealth checks. Leave the bag open and you can drop it as a free action, and he can climb out once the fight starts.

If you can't get a horse cohort, an intelligent set of armor with the Fly power could be useful for positioning, but it won't give you the speed a horse would. However, it moves on its own, so so long as you get armor that likes you (Call him Jarvis), you get to have a full attack and a 30 foot move in any direction including up. You could also consider the leadership feat if your charisma isn't crap - I rarely make a build that doesn't take leadership at the first opportunity, and it might be the thing I would change from the guide. If you're going to go with the leadership route, you could swap your animal companion for the other bonus if you like.

Intelligent flying armor is cheaper than a flying carpet and you don't need to put points in fly, but as mentioned, it's not that fast.

If you take a mount and it doesn't have any proficiency, it can still wear armor, but will take a penalty to its attacks. If you're not using it offensively very often, the extra armor might well be worth it.

[Darkholme]

That should give you a pretty effective, switch-hitting, ranged death machine, who is also a fast sneaky scout, and can disarm traps.

If you want a bonus to your stealth, you can consider having the wizard cast silence on one of your mount's horseshoes, or some other item it's wearing.

If the enemy casters try to dispel the horse, they pick the wrong target.
You can also have your mage cast silence on arrows, or the ground near a target. If he picks a target that isn't a creature or an item it's holding, then there's no save for silence. You can shut down an enemy caster right quick with a bit of cooperation with your wizard. With any luck the caster takes a bit to figure out what in the nine hells just happened. Even if he doesn't, first he has to remove the arrow (IIRC, taking extra damage), then he has to get far enough away from the arrow that it no longer effects him. That should at least take a couple turns.

I think this build should be way more fun than a stock rogue.