Has anyone compiled a dps table for various levels and builds, so one can with a quick glance realize how horrible the own creation sucks?
And is fighter and/or barb the best dps class, when it comes to unbuffed DPS, so enganging in a combat without any forewarning?
(fighter is naturally good, because his stuff always works and barb can activate with a swift action, many builds i see seem to assume 1-4 rounds preparation prior battle)
And is fighter the best dps class for long adventuring, so 10 combats or so?
(barb for example would run out of rage, figher only needs to be healed, restored or resurected in between and repair his weapon)
The answer is very dependent on gear availability and skill of the player, both in build creation and actual running of the character.
It also changes as characters level.
The paladin probably has the best unbuffed DPS provided they are against evil targets, and smite evil is legal as a source of being upbuffed, which it should given that rage was.
With the oath of vengence archtype and generous usage of extra lay on hands, they can smite against just about every major enemy they come across, and, if they somehow manage to run out of uses of that too, they can use their second level spells of aura of righteousness instead of smite evil to double the damage they, and any other good aligned clerics/paladins deal against an evil foe (or combine the two if their enemy survives the first round).
With unbuffed i meant, that instead of party bursting door to attack monsters, the monsters more or less burst the door to attack chars, who just have their stadard daily adventuring equipment on (which would include buffs which last for the entire day)
In such situation 4 rounds of buffing is impossible, just maybe 1 or 2 and of course swift like strike evil, rage and whatever else swift there is.
Assuming no mounted combat antics or weird general feat stuff that I'm not sure about...I'd probably guess that for the main four martial classes they end up somewhat like this.
1st: Paladin using both smite evil and litany of righteousness against the same target
2nd: Level 12 Plus Come and Get Me Barbarian being attacked often
3rd: Smite Evil or Litany of Righteousness paladin
4th: Ranger vs 1st Favoured Enemy
5th: Raging Barbarian
6th: Fighter Using their favoured weapon
7th: Paladin vs non-evil enemies
Depending on level and build, the fighter can out damage the barbarian.
Given a sufficiently optimized build of the correct level, an unarmed monk can out damage both.
Magus has the highest unbuffed burst damage.
I bet a lot of you are severely underestimating a well built fighter built to fight with a composite longbow. The number of attacks alone is going to push him ahead of a lot of other DPR builds.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I bet a lot of you are severely underestimating a well built fighter built to fight with a composite longbow. The number of attacks alone is going to push him ahead of a lot of other DPR builds. Most people are easily impressed by large numbers.
Very few actually do the math or fully understand what those numbers mean.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I bet a lot of you are severely underestimating a well built fighter built to fight with a composite longbow. The number of attacks alone is going to push him ahead of a lot of other DPR builds. Wouldn't a Monk Zen Archer out-damage a fighter with the composite longbow?
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I bet a lot of you are severely underestimating a well built fighter built to fight with a composite longbow. The number of attacks alone is going to push him ahead of a lot of other DPR builds. In defense of the values I proposed, the only one that seems to really by up in the air is the barbarian vs fighter comparison, which is mainly because I was a little lazy and based the comparison off some calculations that I already had available, but that were at level 11, with haste and heroism active (I made those for personal use since the wizard almost always starts with haste anyway, and at that level keeping heroism permanently up isn't particularly difficult)
Other than that though, the others seem to be mostly in line.
When discussing pure damage, the benefits an archery fighter gets are objectively lower than those that an archery ranger gets against their first favoured enemy.
The come and get me barbarian only requires being attacked twice in order to match an archer's number of attacks, for more damage on each hit.
The archery paladin smiting an evil creature has similar numbers of attacks to the archery fighter (Level 6 being the one exceptional level), and a higher damage increase on each hit.
Artanthos wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: I bet a lot of you are severely underestimating a well built fighter built to fight with a composite longbow. The number of attacks alone is going to push him ahead of a lot of other DPR builds. Most people are easily impressed by large numbers.
Very few actually do the math or fully understand what those numbers mean. I've done the math and I know the DPR formula, so I'm very aware of what the large amount of damage an archer can do means. (Wow that would be a terrible sentence to have to parse)
Kazumetsa wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: I bet a lot of you are severely underestimating a well built fighter built to fight with a composite longbow. The number of attacks alone is going to push him ahead of a lot of other DPR builds. Wouldn't a Monk Zen Archer out-damage a fighter with the composite longbow? Possibly, I haven't done the math for a zen archer. And on that note, a paladin archer with smite evil may outdamage both of them. I'm just willing to bet that an archer is the highest DPR build in PFRPG. I said fighter just because they can get every single damage boosting feat an archer needs by level 12, which is a good stopping point since that is where PFSOP stops and where a lot of APs tend to break off or fall apart.
Elosandi wrote:
When discussing pure damage, the benefits an archery fighter gets are objectively lower than those that an archery ranger gets against their first favoured enemy.
Are they? I am not so sure about that especialy at level 20 but quite possibly at any level.
20th level ranger who selects X as a favored enemy every level +10 Hit and Damagevs that favored enemy.
20th Level Fighter +4 hit and damage (weapon Mastery) +2 hit and damage (Gauntlets of dueling which woudl not work for a ranger) for +6 hit and damage. Fighter also qualifies for Weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization brining him up to +6 to hit adn +10 damage. Greater weapon focus (fighter only brings him to +7 to hit +10 damage)
Now figure in the fact fighter will be doing x4 damage on crits and he probably pulls ahead (depending on ac of mob). Add in Penetraitng strike and Greater penetrating strike (again fighter only) and the Fighter is the clear winner whenever Damage Resitance is invovled.
Ughbash wrote: Elosandi wrote:
When discussing pure damage, the benefits an archery fighter gets are objectively lower than those that an archery ranger gets against their first favoured enemy.
Are they? I am not so sure about that especialy at level 20 but quite possibly at any level.
20th level ranger who selects X as a favored enemy every level +10 Hit and Damagevs that favored enemy.
20th Level Fighter +4 hit and damage (weapon Mastery) +2 hit and damage (Gauntlets of dueling which woudl not work for a ranger) for +6 hit and damage. Fighter also qualifies for Weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization brining him up to +6 to hit adn +10 damage. Greater weapon focus (fighter only brings him to +7 to hit +10 damage)
Now figure in the fact fighter will be doing x4 damage on crits and he probably pulls ahead (depending on ac of mob). Add in Penetraitng strike and Greater penetrating strike (again fighter only) and the Fighter is the clear winner whenever Damage Resitance is invovled. On recalculation, you're right. It does depend upon level.
The fighter's damage is higher at levels:
9, 13, 14, 20
Even at:
17, 18, 19
Lower at:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 15, 16
So while not entirely better at every level at doing damage and only doing damage, the ranger is ahead for the vast majority of levels when against their first favoured enemy.
Assumptions:
Dueling Gloves are only affordable at level 8, and at the cost of a slightly worse (One less enhancement bonus) weapon. (i.e. +1/+1 overall)
At level 13 the price difference grows large enough that the cost becomes negligible enough that they use the gloves along with the same weapon. (Increases to +2/+2 overall)
Fighters can comfortably afford to take weapon focus at level 3 without neglecting their primary archery feats. Rangers take it at 7th instead.
Level 1: +2/+2 vs +0/+0
Level 2: +2/+2 vs +0/+0
Level 3: +2/+2 vs +1/+0
Level 4: +2/+2 vs +1/+2
Level 5: +4/+4 vs +2/+3
Level 6: +4/+4 vs +2/+3
Level 7: +5/+4 vs +2/+3
Level 8: +5/+4 vs +4/+4
Level 9: +5/+4 vs +5/+5
Level 10: +7/+6 vs +5/+5
Level 11: +7/+6 vs +5/+5
Level 12: +7/+6 vs +5/+7
Level 13: +7/+6 vs +7/+9
Level 14: +7/+6 vs +7/+9
Level 15: +9/+8 vs +7/+9
Level 16: +9/+8 vs +7/+9
Level 17: +9/+8 vs +8/+10
Level 18: +9/+8 vs +8/+10
Level 19: +9/+8 vs +8/+10
Level 20: +9/+8 vs +8/+10 (But better crits)
I did not intend to argue that a fighter archer was the highest DPR, moreso that some flavor of archer was the highest. I would need specific builds for a fighter, a ranger, a zen archer, and a divine archer to tell you which one comes out ahead.
Also, if you're doing average DPR, you can't assume the ranger gets their favored enemy bonus 100% of the time. You have to look at a certain AP, module, or scenario and figure out what % of the monsters would fit into their favore enemy. Obviously, if you're running Carrion Crown, you're almost certain to pick undead as your first favored enemy, and you'll get the bonus a high % of the time, but it still won't be 100%.
As i made the mistake to post several different questions in the opening - damage tables, unprepared damage, long haul damage - it might be useful to note in respect to which anything is said.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I did not intend to argue that a fighter archer was the highest DPR, moreso that some flavor of archer was the highest. I would need specific builds for a fighter, a ranger, a zen archer, and a divine archer to tell you which one comes out ahead.
Also, if you're doing average DPR, you can't assume the ranger gets their favored enemy bonus 100% of the time. You have to look at a certain AP, module, or scenario and figure out what % of the monsters would fit into their favore enemy. Obviously, if you're running Carrion Crown, you're almost certain to pick undead as your first favored enemy, and you'll get the bonus a high % of the time, but it still won't be 100%.
There is the Instant Enemy spell to get it, but since we are talking unbuffed...There is also this superawesome spell.
Now without any special builds, where would Gunslinger and a Magus rank in here?
I believe the answer to this (early levels) is either the summoner or the druid allowing for only hours/level buffs (Which by all rights you should count as much as magic items) and things which can be used in 10 or more combats per day. This is because of the pets they bring allowing them to have superior action economy. They also benefit disproportionately from buffs ala bard. No other spells will be used in this test excluding the summoners SLA replacing his pet at some levels since he can do this upwards of 10 times a day.
For first level it's the summoner. Hands down. His pet has 3 attacks, can have 16 str and pounce. The best a barb can do is 2d6+9 ish if they go all in while JUST the pet has 3d6+9 if it hits on all 3 attacks and has a more average overall hit ratio and is much less "All in" In addition to being able to split up attacks in the very (VERY) Common event that they all hit. The summoner is more than able to also have 16 str and a scimitar for 1d6+3 more. I excluded power attack because it's comically 1 sided toward animal companions which get 3 or more attacks. (2d6+11 vs 3d6+15 +1d6+3)
By 4th level it's likely the druid thanks to the raptor form with either a roc, raptor, or lion companion giving them 7-8 hits for the character. This becomes exaggerated at 5th when the druid can cast spells as a raptor (IE GMW).
As for damage past 17 why does it matter? We have 9th level magic and a full attack hitting 4 times will probably kill any creature in the game from a barbarian or a fighter. Better to look at damage from 1-16.
1-3: If anything can beat the summoner in ADPS (average dps) I'll eat a hat. Pounce, 4 attacks between the main and the pet, 16 str on every attack because of the +2 stat evolution. Power attack, buffs, this is lunacy to try and trump at this level.
4: Definitely the druid with an AC Lion/raptor/roc too many attacks with bonuses in the +3-6 range making this an easy lead. This level is all about number of attacks since they bonuses are small but the bonus dice put it ahead.
5: I want to say it transitions back to the summoner with 1d4+2 eagles/riding dogs but it depends on how well he rolls for his SLA since 6 eagles at 18d4+36 total damage is a CLEAR leader. Even riding dogs at 6 is 6d6+30.
6: Unsure this is actually a big level for the fighters, probably is actually the TWF over other classes at this odd level simply by virtue of 4 attacks at +7-10 bonuses. I'd guess 4d8+35-40 on falcata critical range PROBABLY edges out even the summoner here.
7: My instinct is that the druid is ahead here because the pet gets bigger and a lion gets a huge number of attacks with +8 more str. This could be wrong.
8: Unsure, likely the summoner for the first few combats.
9: Rogue definitely the rogue. 4 attacks at +5d6/attack. An easy win here. This actually is the level where it seems like they just take over. It's the summoner if we don't allow SA
10: Rogue, as above
11: Rogue, as above
12: Rogue, as above
13: Back, sadly to the summoner by virtue of the summon monster list changing to be absurd here.
14: Summoner, as above
15: Summoner, 1d4+2 summoner monsters or 1d3+1 of below
16: Summoner, as above
What can we take away from this? Well first of all Summoners are VERY strong at DPS due to their pet. Rogues have levels they shine at while fighters are just behind at every level besides 6 where they're probably FAR ahead of anyone else. Druids are ahead at level 4 because no one else gets 7-8 attacks at that level which is more or less a fluke of wild shape coming earlier than most full attacks. Note: The fighter benefits most from more money. The higher money threshold the more equalized the fighter is and at some money threshold the fighter pulls FAR ahead (Generally about 15% more WBL than guidelines) because of his vastly superior critical on a falcata. What I take from this is that the falcata balances fighters with other classes because that is the REQUIRED critical range to make fighters better DPS. The fighter feats need an improvement more specifically power attack has been changed radically to benefit MORE attacks far more than more accurate attacks. As such summons and pets come ahead as the CLEAR winners.
The fact that you put TWF of any class as your highest DPR, but especially the rogue, makes me realize that you have very little idea how much damage the classes in this game actually do. TWF rogues are at the very bottom end of DPR for the class. It's been shown in the DPR olympics threads that, of the martial builds, archery is 50% or more ahead of melee builds in DPR. If anybody is going to compete with the summoner and druid, it's going to be an archer. Whether it's a fighter, zen archer monk, or divine archer paladin is something I've never looked into, but I can promise you an archery build will be well ahead of a melee build.
Think about the fact that at level 6, a fighter archer gets 4 attacks in 1 full attack. Assuming 21 Dex (18 base +2 belt, +1 level bonus, 14 Str, and an adaptive composite longbow +1. Now assume this fighter has the following feats: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, weapon focus, weapon specialization, deadly aim, and manyshot, he's attacking at +10/+10/+10/+5 for 1d8+10 on every attack. If every attack hits, that's average damage of 58. That's before crits are accounted for, which you have almost a 20% chance of getting at least 1 crit in 4 attack rolls. And on top of all that, this build still has room for you to take Clustered Shots so you total up all of your damage before accounting for DR.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Bigdaddyjug wrote: The fact that you put TWF of any class as your highest DPR, but especially the rogue, makes me realize that you have very little idea how much damage the classes in this game actually do. You are making different assumptions. If you are guaranteed to hit, guaranteed to be making full attack actions, and guaranteed to have your opponent vulnerable to sneak attack, then sneak attack and two weapon fighting are good DPR mechanics. In most D&D games, the rogue isn't guaranteed to hit, and has to move far to or not get his sneak attack, thus in something with better defined goal posts than the original post, TWF/Sneak attack fall off considerably.
All that said, once you can negate misfire chance the double barrel firearm wins. Nothing else doubles your number of attacks. And you can combine it with whatever booster you want (smite evil/favored enemy/weapon training).
Undone wrote: I believe the answer to this (early levels) is either the summoner or the druid allowing for only hours/level buffs (Which by all rights you should count as much as magic items) and things which can be used in 10 or more combats per day. This is because of the pets they bring allowing them to have superior action economy. They also benefit disproportionately from buffs ala bard. No other spells will be used in this test excluding the summoners SLA replacing his pet at some levels since he can do this upwards of 10 times a day. While you are right Summoners do insane damage, a Cavalier might be able to outdamage him on low levels with a Mounted Charge. With a strength of 18 he could charge with a lance for triple damage (W8+9)x3 with his Lance.
The AC for a CR 1 monster is supposed to be 12 resulting in 26.975 DPR.
Also at what you have the summoner do at level 5,calling multiple Summon for high damage, the wizard or Druid can just do better. Since they can pick up Augmented Summoning their Summons are stronger then the Summoners(though they need a full-round action). He also cannot use Superior Summons for extra Critters.
Lat5er on the Two-Weapon Fighting Rogue won't take over anything. He can do some nice damage with his Sneak attack, but he normally won't hit enough to outdamage the melees. He can keep up, if he invests heavily, but he won't dominate.(Excluding some crazy Natural weapon Builds)
Bigdaddyjug wrote: The fact that you put TWF of any class as your highest DPR, but especially the rogue, makes me realize that you have very little idea how much damage the classes in this game actually do. TWF rogues are at the very bottom end of DPR for the class. It's been shown in the DPR olympics threads that, of the martial builds, archery is 50% or more ahead of melee builds in DPR. If anybody is going to compete with the summoner and druid, it's going to be an archer. Whether it's a fighter, zen archer monk, or divine archer paladin is something I've never looked into, but I can promise you an archery build will be well ahead of a melee build.
Think about the fact that at level 6, a fighter archer gets 4 attacks in 1 full attack. Assuming 21 Dex (18 base +2 belt, +1 level bonus, 14 Str, and an adaptive composite longbow +1. Now assume this fighter has the following feats: point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, weapon focus, weapon specialization, deadly aim, and manyshot, he's attacking at +10/+10/+10/+5 for 1d8+10 on every attack. If every attack hits, that's average damage of 58. That's before crits are accounted for, which you have almost a 20% chance of getting at least 1 crit in 4 attack rolls. And on top of all that, this build still has room for you to take Clustered Shots so you total up all of your damage before accounting for DR.
A) Rolling 4 attacks at 5% critical chance is not a 20% chance to get a crit. It's about 17-18%, substantially lower than the falcata.
B) Math
fighter TWF falcata
23 str +6
17 dex TWF qualification and allows for a +2 belt of physical stats to get further TWF feats
To hit 6 str 6 base 1 weapon -2 Power attack +1 weapon focus -2 TWF = +10/+10/+5/+5 A loss here on one off hand attack to be sure.
Damage MH +1 falcata 1d8+13 (2 weapon specialization +4 power attack + 1 weapon + 6 str +1 weapon training blades) with double crit range of a bow
Damage OH +1 falcata 1d8+11 (2 weapon specialization +2 power attack + 1 weapon + 6 str with feat +1 weapon training blades) with double crit range of a bow
The loss of to hit on the 3rd attack is offset by the excessively large gain in crit range and power attack damage. At level 8 this is HIGHLY exacerbated by the improved critical feat where the falcata embarrasses the bow by taking improved crit essentially twice. Put simply bows do not do more damage than a full attacking falcata wielding character. I only allowed for characters which can do 10 + encounters a day in that way.
Considering the damage rolls are comparable favorable to melee, but the to hit rolls favorable to ranged, although misleading as ranged never flank lead to a balance between them with a higher maximum potential on melee with a higher range on bows. That said the crit range on the falcata blows the bow out of the water. In the stand there and smash "DPS Olympics" as you say TWF falcata's pull so far ahead that it's not funny. Just take the above and assign each roll 1-20 a value against an at level enemy. The falcata pulls FAR ahead simply because of it's crit range netting it 2 extra attacks worth of damage (4 at 8th)
C) As for the rogue I wanted to go with the "Optimal but all day" Conditions asked for. The rogue will do minimum 24d6 of damage before modifiers are looked for. That's 84 damage at level 9. That's before looking at Power attack (Another 12+) Str (Easily +24 with the feat) Weapon (Add another +1+1d6) and you're looking at in the 120-150 range on average. This kills everything on level and most things over it.
D) I ignored lance builds since they are gimmicky and rarely work. Flanking is easier to get than charge lanes to the target. They are also the clear #1 winner when they work (In the thousands of points of damage) and largely overkill as they could kill the tarrasque and the great wyrm dragon behind it in 1 round.
Ranged characters do not win the dps olympics. They do good damage and have tons of benefits (Hit flying, don't have to move, not everyone can be hit by the same aoe) but being top dps is not one of them. So I feel I should expound upon the above, paladins are ahead if they are smiting provided they are built right and falcata wielding. Rogues are behind if not SA and fighters are ahead in many generic situations on single target but the summoner crushes them in most situations.
Oh and if you want the full math on the above here.
Archer first 3 hits VS ac 19 (The average at that level)
1-8 miss = 0
9-19 hit (30d8+300)=435
20 crit (9d8+90)= 130.5
=565.5
Last hit vs ac 19
1-13 miss = 0
14-19 hit = (5d8+50)= 68.5
20 crit = (3d8+30)= 43.5
=112
677.5 damage total over 80 rolls
This is longer due to differing bonuses
TWF first hit MH vs ac 19 (Average at that level according to MCTable)
1-8 miss = 0
9-18 hit (9d8+117)=157.5
19-20 crit (6d8+78)= 105
TWF second hit MH vs ac 19
1-13 miss = 0
14-18 hit = (5d8+65)= 87.5
19-20 crit = (6d8+78)= 105
TWF first hit OH vs ac 19 (Average at that level according to MCTable)
1-8 miss = 0
9-18 hit (9d8+99)= 139.5
19-20 crit (6d8+66)=87
TWF second hit OH vs ac 19
1-13 miss = 0
14-18 hit = (5d8+55)= 77.5
19-20 crit = (6d8+66)= 87
846 total damage over 80 rolls
This is being HIGHLY generous and not giving him flanking at which point the disparity explodes. Give them improved critical and the disparity becomes comical in nature. I could show the rogue math too if you don't believe me but the rogue has hard and fast break points to be good and it's just terrible once SA is off which is why I was hesitant to include it.
EDITED:While you are right Summoners do insane damage, a Cavalier might be able to outdamage him on low levels with a Mounted Charge. With a strength of 18 he could charge with a lance for triple damage (W8+9)x3 with his Lance. I've seen this, as mentioned a paladin with mounted charge trumps all other choices. No contest. That said it felt gimmicky even for me so I wanted to step back off that build. Summoners beat out the others because the poster asked for someone who can do this "All day" which the summoner can do, the wizard has to move down his list at combat 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. The summoner to my knowledge can take superior summons if this is not the case the summoner falls behind at level 4+ and the druid is hands down the best at those levels.
Maezer wrote: All that said, once you can negate misfire chance the double barrel firearm wins. Nothing else doubles your number of attacks. And you can combine it with whatever booster you want (smite evil/favored enemy/weapon training). Technically Come and get me has the potential to double your attacks. The barbarian can get as many extra attacks as they have attacks of opportunity if they're attacked. However, it is circumstantial on your enemy attacking you.
Litany of Righteousness doesn't double your attacks per round, but it does double your damage against a certain target. That said, it requires your target be evil, can't be activated on the same turn as smite evil, and can be used with firearms too.
You missed that dual wielding falcata's is a -4 penalty, because they are one-handed and not light.
Bows pull ahead, because you are not guaranteed to get a full-attack off in the first round of combat with melee. With a bow you usually will. Additionally, melee loses full-attacks when they kill one target, and have to spend a move to get to another one.
The wording is "each time you cast a spell, that summons more than one creature", so Summoners Special abilities should be out. Augmented Sumoning has been FAQed not to work IIRC.
About Archers vs. Melee: One can also use Arrows with Special properties for extra damage.
Tarantula wrote: You missed that dual wielding falcata's is a -4 penalty, because they are one-handed and not light.
Bows pull ahead, because you are not guaranteed to get a full-attack off in the first round of combat with melee. With a bow you usually will. Additionally, melee loses full-attacks when they kill one target, and have to spend a move to get to another one.
Ah good catch on the -4. That said I left flanking out. Sticking on flanking on creates the above math. Even at -2 every buff favors the falcata. As damage improves so does melee damage. As for practical I was giving most favorable conditions because otherwise practical conditions are summoner Invisible + summons is a boring 16 level list that goes like this 1-3 summoner 4 druid 5-16 summoner 17-20 druid.
I'm fully aware that ranged has benefits but if you corner a ranged character and they can't 5 foot away they're pretty much screwed.
As for melee NOT getting full attacks I was using the "Attack all day" and I was at the time unaware that barbarians could pounce. I was also unaware half orcs had a bite attack potentially (Which pushes the rogue the most). I've not bothered to calculate dps much in pathfinder because either druid or summoner is SO far ahead at every level it's boring. I avoid master summoner because it's ahead at every single level besides possibly 4th (Where the summons don't compare to the 8 pounce attacks from druid+pet) and 17+ where the druid can make an elemental army via elemental swarm which surpasses even a summoner's army in size, although the summoner is probably more dangerous with 12 + greater teleporting ice devils.
The master summoner is highly overpowered and I'd like to leave it out of calculations if possible.
Firstly, I said almost 20% chance to crit in 4 attacks. I would say 18.something is almost 20%.
Secondly, I have a spreadsheet with the DPS formula. If you want to build your best level 12 melee build, I'll build my best level 12 archer and we'll plug in the numbers and see who comes out on top. I think it would be redundant because it's been showed many times before that archery beats melee, but I love building characters so it won't be a big deal.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Firstly, I said almost 20% chance to crit in 4 attacks. I would say 18.something is almost 20%.
Secondly, I have a spreadsheet with the DPS formula. If you want to build your best level 12 melee build, I'll build my best level 12 archer and we'll plug in the numbers and see who comes out on top. I think it would be redundant because it's been showed many times before that archery beats melee, but I love building characters so it won't be a big deal.
Cool, so do I. We'll leave the summoner aside because synth summoner/master summoner are the clear #1s (Synth beating even druid at 4) We'll also leave out the TWF rogue because we both seem to agree in a full attack situation they're the next best around that level. The gimmick rage pounce lance barbarians do the most in rare situations but that's a 1-2/session situation not every combat. Full attacks and flanking are more or less every combat.
Depends on the conditions and class. I'd like 2 tests Assumptions are as follows.
1)A) Both get full attacks
1)B) No buffs other than hour/level
1)C) Solo no flanking
2)A) Both get full attacks
2)B) Full buffs out to bard
2)C) Full group all buffs accounted for including but not limited to haste, good hope, divine favor, greater heroism, enlarge person, bless weapon (for auto confirm critical) there are others but we'll go with just these for the sake of comparison. Flanking
I'll post them later because I'm reasonably sure that aside from the above listed three builds either a paladin smiting evil or a TWF fighter should be ahead in the dps race and it isn't in any narrow set of situations.
"The wording is "each time you cast a spell, that summons more than one creature", so Summoners Special abilities should be out. Augmented Sumoning has been FAQed not to work IIRC."
Really? I thought Augment did work according to the FAQ. My bad. Master summoner is still #1 then but by a less resounding margin.
EDIT: I present Cannon Glass. The dumbest orc fighter you'll ever see.
Orc Fighter 12
The name's Cannon, Glass Cannon. The orc printer, any color as long as it's red.
20 points
STR 22 +2 levels +6 item
Dex 18 +1 level
Con 8
int 5
wis 5
cha 5
108k
36k +6 str belt
32k +1 speed falcata
32k +1 speed falcata
Feats
1: EWP Falcata
f1: WF Falcata
f2: Power attack
3: TWF
4f: weapon specialization falcata
5: Double slice
6f: ITWF
7: Furious focus
8f: Imp crit falcata
9:
10f:
11: GTWF
12f: greater weapon focus
Attacks unbuffed
BAB 12/12/12(S1)/12(S2)/7/7/2/2
To hit 10 str + 1 weapon + 2 fighter training + 2 Weapon focus -4 power attack -4 TWF not light handed
Full attack +23 MH /+19 MH /+19 MH /+19 OH /+14 MH /+14 OH /+9 MH /+9 OH
Damage on each attack MH 1d8 + 23 (10 str 2 specialization 2 fighter training 1 weapon 8 power attack)
Damage on each attack OH 1d8 + 19 (10 str 2 specialization 2 fighter training 1 weapon 4 power attack)
Crit range 17-20x3
I completely disagree about the rogue being 3rd best. I think rogue will be near the bottom of any DPR chart because their hit chance suffers greatly and all the sneak attack dice in the world don't mean anything when you whiff on your target.
How does that fighter get 5 main hand attacks unbuffed at level 12? Oh, by the way, your 2 speed falcattas don't stack. That's how you were getting 5 attacks. And you do realize that you can't get 22 Str at level 1.
Ok, so if we're going to do this, let's eliminate corner cases. Character creation rules should follow PFS rules, since they eliminate a lot of the ridiculous corner cases. For buffs, let's just go completely unruffled since a lot of the buffs will affect both characters the same way. If you want to put up an attack sequence unbuffed and fully buffed, we can figure out the DPR both ways to see which build gets the most from buffs.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I completely disagree about the rogue being 3rd best. I think rogue will be near the bottom of any DPR chart because their hit chance suffers greatly and all the sneak attack dice in the world don't mean anything when you whiff on your target.
How does that fighter get 5 main hand attacks unbuffed at level 12? Oh, by the way, your 2 speed falcattas don't stack. That's how you were getting 5 attacks. And you do realize that you can't get 22 Str at level 1.
Ok, so if we're going to do this, let's eliminate corner cases. Character creation rules should follow PFS rules, since they eliminate a lot of the ridiculous corner cases. For buffs, let's just go completely unruffled since a lot of the buffs will affect both characters the same way. If you want to put up an attack sequence unbuffed and fully buffed, we can figure out the DPR both ways to see which build gets the most from buffs.
1) I was going with the favorable situations for each class.
2) According to the rules boards 2 speed weapons stack with each other but not with haste. He will have 6 attacks (3 MH 3 OH) and 2 speed attacks.
3) Orc is +4 str, 18+4 =22 last time I checked
4) You said make my best so I did :p The character is legal it's just not practical.
To make it PFS legal all you need to do is change orc to human and take the dual talented racial alternate with STR/Dex which gives you a few points for con. There the above build is legal. If we're doing PFS characters we're largely limited to 3-4 encounters. I don't see the point of this test since druids and wizard conjurers make a mockery of that short day. If we exclude summoning classes, and gimmick builds (Lance builds specifically) The paladin is the clear winner at the 3 encounter a day format. Smite evil with a +4-5 charisma adds so much to hit and damage that all of their attacks hit even their +2 attack at the end. TWF again pulls ahead here because you apply 12 bonus damage to each attack, or 24 which is just unparalleled. I don't feel I even need to roll the character up for this to be agreed upon. +5 to hit +12 damage vs the fighters +1/2 more to hit and +5 ish damage.
I understand people love ranged characters, I love having one or two in the group too! They fill in an important nitch and often do more damage over a REAL fight because they don't get stuck in webbing or have to pull an unfocused bow on a flier or the melee can't reach the wizard at the back, that said there's a reason melee does more damage, it's more dangerous. I'll even leave a reasonable character to compare, only assumption is that since he's PFS legal he'll fight vs PFS style encounters (IE Largely evil and usually no more than 4 combats a day)
Human Paladin 12
FOR GREAT JUSTICE!
Str 16 +2 human +2 level +4 item
Dex 15 +4 item
Con 11 +4 item +1 level
Int 7
Wis 7
Cha 16 +4 charisma headband
H: TWF
1: PROF Falcata
3: Power attack
5: Weapon focus falcata
7: ITWF
9: IC Falcata
11: GTWF
Items
40k +4 belt of physical stats
16k +4 charisma headband
18k +1 holy falcata
18k +1 holy falcata
Leaves 16k for defensive items such as a mithral full plate or a cloak of resistance which is more than reasonable for a dps paladin in the REAL PFS games. While a specialized character this is by no means something you couldn't see in PFS.
Attacks
BAB 12/12/7/7/2/2
Assumptions, GMW cast on both weapons for +3 each, lasts all day it's no more unreasonable to assume this than mage armor or long strider.
To hit +7 str + BAB + 3 item + 1 Weapon focus + 5 smite -4 power attack -4 TWF not light
20/20/15/15/10/10 vs smite target
Damage MH
1d8 base + 2d6 holy + 7 str + 8 power attack + 12 smite + 3 weapon = 41.5 average crits on a 17-20x3
Damage OH
1d8 base + 2d6 holy + 3 str + 4 Power attack + 12 smite + 3 weapon = 34.5 average crits on a 17-20x3
According to the definition of a speed weapon, they do not stack with similar effects. I would call a 2nd speed weapon a similar effect. Even if they did stack, they wouldn't give you two more attacks with your MH weapon, they would give you one extra MH attack and one extra OH attack.
By making the characters PFS legal, we set out a series of guidelines for other people who think they can make a character that can compete in the challenge. As I said, PFS eliminates a lot of the corner cases (like synthesist and master summoner) that are simply broken either with how much damage they can do or in regards to action economy.
I had my archer fighter built already, now I just need to find the damn build and I can come up with average DPR on a full attack.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: Artanthos wrote: Bigdaddyjug wrote: I bet a lot of you are severely underestimating a well built fighter built to fight with a composite longbow. The number of attacks alone is going to push him ahead of a lot of other DPR builds. Most people are easily impressed by large numbers.
Very few actually do the math or fully understand what those numbers mean. I've done the math and I know the DPR formula, so I'm very aware of what the large amount of damage an archer can do means. (Wow that would be a terrible sentence to have to parse) I was calling out 2-handed builds.
Bigdaddyjug wrote: According to the definition of a speed weapon, they do not stack with similar effects. I would call a 2nd speed weapon a similar effect. Even if they did stack, they wouldn't give you two more attacks with your MH weapon, they would give you one extra MH attack and one extra OH attack.
By making the characters PFS legal, we set out a series of guidelines for other people who think they can make a character that can compete in the challenge. As I said, PFS eliminates a lot of the corner cases (like synthesist and master summoner) that are simply broken either with how much damage they can do or in regards to action economy.
I had my archer fighter built already, now I just need to find the damn build and I can come up with average DPR on a full attack.
I didn't use speed weapons in the second build just generic holy weapons which are more than available to a 12th level character. That said I didn't think they stacked either until someone pointed out that they did on the rules forum.
The above paladin is entirely PFS legal and the only non core material is the falcata.
I'd be interested to know how an archer trumps a TWF especially at level 12 in the PFS encounter format (IE evil creatures 3-4 combats/mod) While I personally believe this to be moot because a academia wizard getting a standard action 1d3+1 celestial riding dogs doing 2d6+10 to 4d6+20 at 3rd is ahead of most builds (and available 3/day conveniently) that's before we reach 5th or 7th where the disparity becomes even more exaggerated. As I said Ignoring summons, gimmick builds (lance builds), and wildshape druids I believe the DPS ranking goes something like this.
Unbuffed level 12 Excluding wild shape, summons, and lance builds
Paladin smiting evil with TWF Falcata
Ranger vs highest favored enemy TWF falcata
Fighter TWF Falcata
Barbarian TWF Falcata (Possibly higher than fighter, level dependent)
Rogue TWF
Ranged variants
THF varients
Note: TWF, and ranged crash to the ground vs DR they can't bypass while THF is ahead at DR values >5.
Buffed the rogue wins because he hits on a 2 for his primary and a very small number for his last iterative while none of the other groups have the same damage buffs not even the paladin with his +12 damage (Although +24 still wins vs evil outsiders) 11th level grants rogues their 6th sneak attack die which averages to 21 from just bonus damage that isn't reduced on OH.
Buffed full bard good hope/heroism/self/bard song/exct level 12 Excluding wild shape, summons, and lance builds
Rogue TWF Falcata or paladin vs evil outsiders
Paladin smiting TWF Falcata
Fighter TWF Falcata/Barbarian TWF Falcata (I'd have to stat them all the way out but I'm leaning barbarian)
Ranged varients
THF varients
Again both ranged and THF have benefits (Especially at some levels where THF crushes TWF in Dps early and ranged interacting with spell casters.) but there's a GOOD REASON why rogue and paladin sit atop the charts. They give up a substantial amount of damage when not doing "Their thing" while the others always work about the same.
I'm not talking about everything PFS, just the character builds. To figure out DPR we're going to use average AC of a CR12 monster. For things like paladins with Smite Evil and rangers with Favored Enemy, we'll have to agree on an appropriate % of time that they would get those bonuses.
And archers smoke any kind of DR with Clustered Shots.
And the more you try and claim that a rogue is the highest DPR class, the less I think this is necessary because you are the ONLY person I have ever seen on these boards making that claim. And that makes me think you don't really know what you're talking about.
Rogues are the lowest DPR melee class.
At least they get skill points.
How do you know if someone is an mmo pvp addict? Dips is damage per second, not relevant in pf. Dpr is damage per round, relevant to the system in question. We now return you to our regularly scheduled damage thread discussion! ;)
Bigdaddyjug wrote: I'm not talking about everything PFS, just the character builds. To figure out DPR we're going to use average AC of a CR12 monster. For things like paladins with Smite Evil and rangers with Favored Enemy, we'll have to agree on an appropriate % of time that they would get those bonuses.
And archers smoke any kind of DR with Clustered Shots.
And the more you try and claim that a rogue is the highest DPR class, the less I think this is necessary because you are the ONLY person I have ever seen on these boards making that claim. And that makes me think you don't really know what you're talking about.
If you noticed Rogue is 5th on my list not first, not second. Buffed IE Hit on a 2 buffed rogue simply scales best (Excluding paladins vs evil outsiders) because it's all damage math. What class has a class feature which adds 3.5 damage every other level? Does the fighter get +35 damage before STR/Power attack because the rogue does. I don't even like rogues but I can't see how anyone would debate that +35 damage/hit is trumped (Except by the paladins +40). Simply looking at class features we get something like
Barbarian +8 str rage and a few various small bonuses
Fighter +4 weapon training +4 weapon specialization
Paladin +20/40 dependent on the target
Ranger +10 favored enemy
Rogue +10d6(35) sneak attack
While no means comprehensive Things like power attack can be taken by each of them. I'm not talking about practical heck in a practical situation all marshal classes are so far behind it's not funny. PFS legal I'd take a wild shaping summoning druid all day.
The reason the paladin should pull ahead is because if we use PFS legal conditions we should use PFS legal mods which likely means the paladin gets 4 smites to the 3 or 4 encounters. As for DR the paladin still pulls ahead here because it ignores it entirely.
I feel like we're using entirely different metrics for damage and this is where our disparity is coming from. I'm talking about wrecking an imaginary trillion life point meat sack to show average damage not practical damage. When fully buffed to hit on a 2 rogues are ahead. Does that happen often? No. But when you hit on your final iterative on a 2 at level 20 a rogue is ahead. At normal hit levels I AGREE with you. The rogue is behind 5 to hit and this is simply not able to be overcome until you start factoring in the easy +15-20 in buffs accessible to a 20th level character hit becomes a non issue.
+35 damage a hit is trumped by not hitting as often and by the requirements needed to get the bonus damage. Not to mention the sheer number of creatures who are completely immune to it.
The +35 damage is trumped because a two-weapon fighting rogue misses more attacks than it lands. If the attacks aren't landing, it doesn't matter how much bonus damage you get. Rogues are already 3/4 BAB, when you stack TWF penalties and half the feats of a fighter on top of that, it's a recipe for disaster.
I don't have to say that I think TWF rogues are the lowest DPR build out there, because the builds at level 10 have already been done and it's been proven. If you want to build a rogue to do damage, you have two options: 1)make it an elf or half-elf and use an Elven curve blade, or 2)make your rogue a ninja instead and use a katana. In the second case, you need to make a Str based rogue, which blows away the DPR of any Dex based build.
You also say rogues get 10d6 sneak attack, but they don't get that on every attack, especially iteratives. Granted, it's not impossible to get sneak attack on every attack, but it's not guaranteed. Also, you don't get 10d6 sneak attack until level 19. PFS stops at level 12, most APs only go to 15 or 16, and any homebrew game that's going to 20 and beyond is into ridiculous amounts of damage anyway. Most DPR comparisons stop at either level 10 or 12 for these reasons. Twelve because that is where PFSOP stops and 10 because level 11 is a huge DPR increase for full BAB classes that end up making them put rogues, inquisitors, and other 3/4 BAB classes to shame.
Tarantula wrote: +35 damage a hit is trumped by not hitting as often and by the requirements needed to get the bonus damage. Not to mention the sheer number of creatures who are completely immune to it. A) I already said not buffed a rogue is pretty low on the totem pole dps wise.
B) Fully buffed hit is a joke, even at level 12. You should auto hit when counting greater heroism, flanking, good hope, exct all the way through the buff list you end up with 20+ to hit even on the last iterative.
If you end up at low buffs rogue is abominable as your to hit is too low.
If you want to build a rogue that does damage you need to get the drop on them and have more buffs on your sheet you can count.
If you want unbuffed DPR it's paladin while smiting evil followed by ranger vs favored followed by fighter all surpassed by summons, lances, and wild shaped druids.
Artanthos wrote: Rogues are the lowest DPR melee class.
At least they get skill points.
that depends on if were talking about actual damage or possible damage. and the level actual damage then probably though i think some melee builds of caster classes are lower. possible damage then i highly doubt it. hell a lvl 1 ninja can push somkthing like 4d4+4d6+8 in a single round.
Is smite evil not a buff? Or do you mean buffs that aren't self-provided?
What if the enemy is immune to precision damage? Or cannot be flanked? How are you getting your sneak attack then?
Point is, rogues are highly highly situational, and if you are giving them every buff in the book and the perfect situation as well, we might as well just compare maximum possible damage instead of average damage in a round. Sure, its nice to see the big numbers, but you won't ever get everything going your way in a fight.
Sneak attack damage is also not multiplied on a critical hit, while the power attack/Deadly aim, and smite evil damage that a paladin gains is.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with Tarantula so much, but he's correct. Not to mention a paladin can only smite 7 times a day at level 20. That's not 7 different combats, that's 7 different monsters. Not to mention, not everything you fight is going to be evil. A lot of things are going to be neutral, whether true or chaotic.
Tarantula wrote: Is smite evil not a buff? Or do you mean buffs that aren't self-provided?
What if the enemy is immune to precision damage? Or cannot be flanked? How are you getting your sneak attack then?
Point is, rogues are highly highly situational, and if you are giving them every buff in the book and the perfect situation as well, we might as well just compare maximum possible damage instead of average damage in a round. Sure, its nice to see the big numbers, but you won't ever get everything going your way in a fight.
That's why I have two lists.
1) Full buffs, prep time.
2) No buffs besides hours/level or self provided free/swift buffs that are each combat. No prep time other than early morning putting on armor exct.
Maximum possible period is the rogue. In ideal situations it's the rogue. In PFS the paladin (Especially in the 3-4 encounter format of PFS) is the winner. In home games it could be whatever.
As for the actual top Damage per round the druid, summoner, or conjurer wizard is the true top damage. My assumption is the druid comes out ahead.
Undone wrote: If you noticed Rogue is 5th on my list not first, not second. Buffed IE Hit on a 2 buffed rogue simply scales best (Excluding paladins vs evil outsiders) because it's all damage math. What class has a class feature which adds 3.5 damage every other level? Does the fighter get +35 damage before STR/Power attack because the rogue does. I don't even like rogues but I can't see how anyone would debate that +35 damage/hit is trumped (Except by the paladins +40). Simply looking at class features we get something like
Barbarian +8 str rage and a few various small bonuses
Fighter +4 weapon training +4 weapon specialization
Paladin +20/40 dependent on the target
Ranger +10 favored enemy
Rogue +10d6(35) sneak attack
Assuming you meant level 20:
You're forgetting a lot of things. Barbarians have the furious weapon property, effectively getting a +2 to hit/damage at the cost of a +1 enhancement, the courageous weapon property giving them another +2 to strength since rage is a morale bonus.
Fighters get gloves of dueling, and a higher crit modifier
The biggest one.
Paladins have Litany of Righteousness as a second level spell, a swift action buff that doubles the damage done to a target, effectively giving them +Whatever their regular damage is.
Level 20 Paladin:
(Str 30, +5 holy kukris)
Damage: 2.5+10 (str)+5 enhancement+2d6 (holy)+12/6 (Power attack Main hand/off hand) (15-20/x2) =
= 29.5 +7 main hand 23.5 +7 off hand
Crit Multiplier: (.3 x.95 = .285)
= 29.5 x 1.285 (+7 holy)
= 44.9075 (Main hand)
= 23.5 x 1.285 (+7 holy)
= 30.1975 (+7 holy)
= 37.1975
(Assuming auto-hits)
20/20/15/15/10/10/5
= Main Hand x 4 + Off hand x3
= (44.9075 x 4) + (37.1975 x 3)
= 291.2225 x 2 (Litany of Righteousness)
= 582.445
Elosandi wrote: (Assuming auto-hits) There are two problems with this:
1) The highest hit chance you ever have is 95%, because a 1 on an attack roll is an automatic miss
2) The average AC for a CR20 monster is somewhere around 38. Are you absolutely certain you're going to have +28 to hit? If so, are you going to have +33? 30 Str will give you +10, the +5 weapon will give you another +5. But that's still 13/18 to hit bonuses you need to make up. When smiting, sure you might be hitting 95% of the time, but as I said earlier, you can't smite all the time.
Undone wrote: B) Fully buffed hit is a joke, even at level 12. You should auto hit when counting greater heroism, flanking, good hope, exct all the way through the buff list you end up with 20+ to hit even on the last iterative. Please, go through the buff list. Greater Heroism and Good Hope don't stack too well together. Relevant bonuses you would get is +4 attack rolls and +2 damage.
Greater Heroism: +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, immunity to fear effects, and temporary hit points equal to your caster level (maximum 20).
Good Hope: +2 morale bonus on saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls.
You might as well just have your 12th level bard friend sing instead of having good hope cast. (Giving you +3 to damage instead).
CR12 monster AC expected is 27. Rogue has 9/4 bab. -2 from TWF. So 7/7/2/2 plus his bonuses from str(or dex if finesse rogue) and buffs. Assuming he started with an 18 from point buy. +2 racial, +2 level points, and a +6 belt, thats a 28 score. or a +9. We're up to 16/16/11/11. Throw in +4 Greater Heroism for the hit, and 20/20/15/15. 2 more for flank is 22/22/17/17. So 5's to hit on primary, and 10's on secondary. That's pretty good, but not a "sure thing."
The highest DPR I've ever managed to put together for a rogue, is a Str-based ninja rocking a katana. At level 10 I was able to put out 75 DPR assuming flanking. In the DPR Olympics threads, no other rogue got over 60 DPR, because they always tried to do TWF and rogues are the worst class to try TWF with.
Tarantula wrote: Undone wrote: B) Fully buffed hit is a joke, even at level 12. You should auto hit when counting greater heroism, flanking, good hope, exct all the way through the buff list you end up with 20+ to hit even on the last iterative. Please, go through the buff list. Greater Heroism and Good Hope don't stack too well together. Relevant bonuses you would get is +4 attack rolls and +2 damage.
Greater Heroism: +4 morale bonus on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks, immunity to fear effects, and temporary hit points equal to your caster level (maximum 20).
Good Hope: +2 morale bonus on saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls.
You might as well just have your 12th level bard friend sing instead of having good hope cast. (Giving you +3 to damage instead).
CR12 monster AC expected is 27. Rogue has 9/4 bab. -2 from TWF. So 7/7/2/2 plus his bonuses from str(or dex if finesse rogue) and buffs. Assuming he started with an 18 from point buy. +2 racial, +2 level points, and a +6 belt, thats a 28 score. or a +9. We're up to 16/16/11/11. Throw in +4 Greater Heroism for the hit, and 20/20/15/15. 2 more for flank is 22/22/17/17. So 5's to hit on primary, and 10's on secondary. That's pretty good, but not a "sure thing." To hit buffs with an arbitrary amount of rounds to buff because you're going to scry and die the enemy at level 20 or you're probably going to die getting there.
Greater heroism +4 moral
Bard +6 competence
Haste +1 untyped
Blessing of Fervor +2 untyped
UMD Cleric scribed scroll of divine power CL 18+ +6 luck You can get this from a party member or buy one with the mountain of gold you have
+2 flanking Untyped
I've not even started getting more obscure bonuses yet and I'm at +21. If we really wanted to cheese weasel our to hit we could buy some insignificant commoners or use leadership to aid another for +10 minimum. At level 20 hitting is trivial if you know what you're doing. As for level 12 let's do that one instead.
Level 12
blessing of fervor +2 untyped
Greater heroism +4 Moral
Inspire courage +3 Comp
UMD Scroll of Divine power CL 12 +4 luck bonus.
Flanking +2 untyped
Assuming you need +25 to hit the AC 27 (rolling a 1 vs 26 is pointless so assumes roll of 2+) this gets there with a minor assumed personal amount. I could go to the full list of scrolls including haste, righteous might, aid another x 5 from cheese weaseling dogs. There are at least 5 more +1's I can think of but it becomes a long list of little buffs. Getting + to hit is a JOKE if you're prepared and sure you're going to get the drop on the enemy via teleport. The problem is slogging through the HP, DR, displacement, immune effects, aura of fears, contingent spells, and long list of other issues like teleport traps, illusions and really everything else that foils your preparation. That's why I mentioned that when mentioning the rogue. If you hit on a 2 it's the highest damage, period. If you take into account more realistic situations the paladin is ahead while smiting otherwise it's either the fighter or the barbarian (Situation and length of day dependent) If you want to restrict the scrolls to CL only you lower the divine power scroll substantially but it really doesn't matter when you begin to realize how silly the to hit can become.
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