Ultimate Equipment has, to my knowledge, the most expanded rules on tents. From the PRD:
TENT
Type Price Weight
Small 10 gp 20 lbs.
Medium 15 gp 30 lbs.
Large 30 gp 40 lbs.
Pavilion 100 gp 50 lbs.
Tents come in a variety of sizes and accommodate between one and 10 people. A small tent holds one Medium creature and takes 20 minutes to assemble, a medium tent holds two creatures and takes 30 minutes, a large tent holds four creatures and takes 45 minutes, and a pavilion holds 10 creatures and takes 90 minutes (two Small creatures count as a Medium creature, and one Large creature counts as two Medium creatures). Pavilion tents are large enough to accommodate a small fire in the center. Packing up a tent takes half as long as assembling it.
For tents without a sewn in floor all you need to do is loosen one of the ropes and crawl in.
@Kazaan - Daggers are also Slashing and the HP/Hardness is based on thickness, not other dimensions. Who would perforate the tent if they're trying to get in quickly?
So, 1 poke of, for sake of calculation, 2 HP and 2 hardness to get the dagger in, 36 inches at a diagonal to start the hole, that's 180 HP with 2 hardness, then make another diagonal of the same length and you've got a triangular flap just big enough to crawl through. That's a total of 362 HP to chew through. A mundane dagger is 1d4 and we'll presume you've got a +2 Str mod so you're doing 1d4+2 damage per 6s, or straight up 1d4 if you pre-determine hardness impact. Average is 2.5 damage/6s if you take a full-round to line up the target and ignore AC, it'd take you an average of 14.5 minutes to cut a small flap to crawl through in a hide tent. For a cloth tent at no hardness and 2 HP/in, it'd be 1 HP for initial poke and just under 6 minutes to complete the job.
This is a good starting foundation, but 6 minutes to cut a hole in the wall of a cloth tent is way way way over the top - especially in a game that emphasizes players being above average/superhero types.
It is much easier to put a scratch in a stone wall (or piece of wood) then it is to gouge a one inch deep scratch in either of said material. I'd very much consider thickness (or depth) of the cut as well as length of the cut here. Cloth could come in at 1/16 inch of thickness (or less). Divide the cloth hp by 16 then gets you 9 HP and 3-4 rounds to cut out the hole.
The hide thickness could vary, but lets say 1/8 inch. So divide that 362 by 8 and get ~45 HP. 18 rounds (or just under 2 minutes) to cut open the hide.
The hit points given are not for every inch of length you cut. The listed hit points are for a 5' x 5' section of that particular thickness (or is it 10ftx10ft?).
So a 5' x 5' section of half-inch thick hide has 2 hit points.
A 2 inch thick iron door only has 60 hit points. There is no way the wall of a hide tent will have more then that.
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Don't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away? :p
It takes about 3 seconds, casting a fireball is a standard action. Afterwards you can access whatever was in the tent.
Not entirely true. If you are standing close enough to bend down and pick up something that was in the tent you just fire balled yourself at point blank range. If you are still alive it is about 3 seconds. This also assumes anything in the tent survived the blast. You may be able to access the ash of whatever was in the tent though.
It takes about 3 seconds, casting a fireball is a standard action. Afterwards you can access whatever was in the tent.
At least you can loot the non-flamible things.
So you're implying whether you want to slash at a spear haft to break it into "head" and "butt" ends, or split it all the way from butt to head, it's exactly the same? Thickness is a relative term. If I'm trying to saw a door in half vertically, its height becomes the "thickness" dimension. If I just want to hammer straight through it, then "thickness" is what we'd conventionally think of as "thickness"; the distance from the front surface of the door to the back surface. By your method, it'd be just as easy to cut down a tree as it would be to bisect it top-down.
It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not. Those are the rules (And as this is the Rules forum, the actual rules should be the only thing discussed). It only takes 60 hit points of damage to bash through an iron door. 180 hit points to break through a 2 foot thick stone masonry wall.
By RAW, a hide tent wall would only have between 2 and 5 hit points, with a hardness of 2. So between 4 and 7 damage to cut a hole through it.
The hit points given are not for every inch of length you cut. The listed hit points are for a 5' x 5' section of that particular thickness (or is it 10ftx10ft?).
So a 5' x 5' section of half-inch thick hide has 2 hit points.
A 2 inch thick iron door only has 60 hit points. There is no way the wall of a hide tent will have more then that.
Citation needed.
As Kazaan pointed out this doesn't fit very well with rules like sunder and breaking objects. This would place all weapons at about 1 hp (or much lower) to sunder, since all weapons are much smaller than a 5 x 5 x someThickness.
Edit: Clicked reply on the wrong post, fixed to reply to the intended post.
Don't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
More like sarcasm detector needed. :p
Don't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
As Kazaan pointed out this doesn't fit very well with rules like sunder and breaking objects. This would place all weapons at about 1 hp (or much lower) to sunder, since all weapons are much smaller than a 5 x 5 x someThickness.
Weapons and armor have their own rules. They don't follow the hp/inch rules. Thats why they have their own special table.
More like sarcasm detector needed. :pDon't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
Beep. Beep. Beep.
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More like sarcasm detector needed. :pDon't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
More like verify you've replied/quoted the correct post needed.
Beep. Beep. Beep.More like sarcasm detector needed. :pDon't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
I think my sarcasm detector detector detects something.
More like verify you've replied/quoted the correct post needed.More like sarcasm detector needed. :pDon't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
All of the detection spell contain a phrase similar if not identical to the following :
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
More like verify you've replied/quoted the correct post needed.More like sarcasm detector needed. :pDon't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
All of the detection spell contain a phrase similar if not identical to the following :
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Ha. No, I know about lead sheets and other materials blocking detection spells. What I mean is I hit reply on the wrong post. The citation I was looking for was that hardness/hp refers to a 5x5 area. I'm not seeing it in the rules for hardness and hp for objects/materials.
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Ha. No, I know about lead sheets and other materials blocking detection spells. What I mean is I hit reply on the wrong post. The citation I was looking for was that hardness/hp refers to a 5x5 area. I'm not seeing it in the rules for hardness and hp for objects/materials.More like verify you've replied/quoted the correct post needed.More like sarcasm detector needed. :pDon't everyone make their tents out of 1 inch thick lead? How else do you keep those pesky magic insurance salesmen (that use detect magic) away?Citation needed.
All of the detection spell contain a phrase similar if not identical to the following :
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Oh. Lol. Alright then. Carry on. Nothing to see here.
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
You mean I only need a thin sheet of lead? I have been using 1 inch thick lead all this time! Imagine all that weight I can save on my new tent!
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You mean I only need a thin sheet of lead? I have been using 1 inch thick lead all this time! Imagine all that weight I can save on my new tent!
The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Plus the lower chance for long term neurological damage.
I wouldn't worry about the hardness rules, unless it is a super magic tent of dagger resistance or something a sharp knife will cut it.
The trick is doing it quietly, so I would probably do a skill check of some sort possibly a disable device or sleight of hand to make a nice neat cut that is big enough to slip through without making noise, along with whatever stealth checks are necessary to avoid detection as necessary. For a yurt or pavilion which generally has walls that are not attached maybe an escape artist to slip underneath. The DC would probably be based on the time taken, with it being bloody near impossible to do quietly as a standard action with the dc going down drastically if they are willing to take a few rounds to do it.
Though honestly provided it is out side of combat/initiative rounds I might just make it a straight up stealth check to simplify things.
The easy way:
1)Draw dagger (free action w/ Quick-Draw)
2)Cut hole in side of tent (move action)
3) Enter (move action)
The sneaky way:
Round 1:
1)Pull up side of tent (Move action, Stealth roll to do so unseen/quietly)
2)Drop prone (free action)
3)Roll under into tent (crawl action)
Round 2:
4)Stand up inside tent (move action)
Ha. No, I know about lead sheets and other materials blocking detection spells. What I mean is I hit reply on the wrong post. The citation I was looking for was that hardness/hp refers to a 5x5 area. I'm not seeing it in the rules for hardness and hp for objects/materials.
Its in the section of the rules that talk about walls. And I was wrong, its not 5x5, its 10x10. Scroll down to Table:Walls, and read note 1.
If a 10 foot wide, 10 foot tall, 1 foot thick masonry wall has 90 hit points, then a thin hide wall will have far fewer hit points.
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We've gone rather dagger-specific here, but it's interesting.
I've been wondering about using it as a player in our Kingmaker campaign.
Although staying inside a tent means you don't look out, you can still listen, and there's still a wall of canvas between you and anything attacking you at night to give you the time to wake up and get ready.
Assuming a Pavilion tent either has, or can be provided with a floor, then the question is how good is this as protection against all sorts of different things that might choose to attack you.
Bandits with daggers is one possibility, however consider also wild animals and things like Trolls.
Richard
I would say, for a canvas tent, 30 seconds and a sharp dagger = door.
Hide would probably take considerably more effort.
Modern nylon tent plus boxcutter, 2 seconds. Canvas plus dagger, maaaaaybe 5 seconds.
Assuming a Pavilion tent either has, or can be provided with a floor, then the question is how good is this as protection against all sorts of different things that might choose to attack you.Bandits with daggers is one possibility, however consider also wild animals and things like Trolls.
Richard
Daggers are frequently mentioned simply because they're the best tool for the job. A sharp point gets the blade through the material; a sharp edge opens a way in once the tent is punctured.
Considering the rend damage a troll can deliver, tearing its way into a tent won't be a problem.
Animals, not having the intelligence to reason the best way to get through it, will likely bring the tent down before they get inside.
Most tents of the type we're speaking of don't have floors. Anyone rich enough to have their own pavilion usually have carpets to lay inside it on the ground. If you did design one with an attached floor, it likely won't help much. Might confuse a bullette burrowing in from underneath for a second or two, until it gets made and rips its way through the cloth.
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I think that a pavilion tent is supposed to be the sort of thing that nomads use to travel about and live in.
Funnily enough, there's an identical tent in the Al-Qadim rules (50lb 100gp).
Anyway, 1 attack action to get through the thing would be my guess. So if someone manages to creep up without being heard right outside, they could do one attack to cut the tent, 5' step in and then finish their round of attacks against whatever is in there.
Unless, of course, it's a surprise round, in which case the surprise finishes with them stepping in.
- that's the rules bit.
We then have to decide what sort of creature would do this without any knowledge of what's actually inside the tent.
Richard
No step between attack of a full round attack.
Citation needed to contradict specific text in the Full-attack Action:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
(Emphasis mine.)
Ha. No, I know about lead sheets and other materials blocking detection spells. What I mean is I hit reply on the wrong post. The citation I was looking for was that hardness/hp refers to a 5x5 area. I'm not seeing it in the rules for hardness and hp for objects/materials.Its in the section of the rules that talk about walls. And I was wrong, its not 5x5, its 10x10. Scroll down to Table:Walls, and read note 1.
If a 10 foot wide, 10 foot tall, 1 foot thick masonry wall has 90 hit points, then a thin hide wall will have far fewer hit points.
Thanks for the link. When you'd first stated it I'd though, 'that sounds right', then I couldn't find the rules on it and figured I'd just misremembered from older additions or another game.
I did do some more looking into this though and there seem to be a number of inconsistencies.
...Each 5-foot square of the wall has hardness 8 and 15 hit points per inch of thickness...
That's the correct hardness and HP listed for stone, but listed for only a 5' section of wall.
Wall of Iron is similar.
...Each 10-foot square of wall has 3 hit points per inch of thickness...
Wall of ice seems to follow the section on walls though.
While the RAW on all these seems pretty clear, it is also horribly inconsistent. Are magical walls of stone and iron really intended to be tougher than non-magical ones? They are magic after all, so why not, but then why does magical ice not follow suit.
Further, is a tent really to be treated like a wall? Or should it really be treated like an object? I'd think object - but as a large object does it have more HP for total destruction of it? How much damage to destroy just part of it (like one side flap of the tent) - so should we revert to the rules on wall HP being a 10' section per hp?