@DeathQuaker - I agree with you on the rationale for the Secret ID. Most importantly, the Triple ID of the failed pilot is a "NO!" If telling a story like that of the recent animated movie, or the Perez version, then there is no need.
But when, and how the alter ego was introduced in WW worked well.Also worth noting, Diana had a decent supporting cast without the alter ego. Her publicist (IIRC) Mindi Mayer, The Sandsmarks (even before Cassandra's demi-godhood was introduced), and Silver Swan and her mother (I forget their names atm). Plus General (later SecDef) Steve Trevor and his wife Etta Candy-Trevor.
And that's not including General Phillipus, Queen Hippolyta, and the rest of Diana's Amazon Sisters. Or her actual sister Donna. (Who has joined team mate Wally West, and both of the good Batgirls in limbo).
Part of Wondy's issue with supporting cast, is especially in the last 20 years or so, every major writer has wanted to give her a new one, with characters they made up. They use Wonder Woman's cast as a chance to put their "stamp" on things, but it means Wonder Woman has very little continuity cast-wise.
The thing is a lot of her cast are really GREAT characters. They just keep getting discarded or reinvented.
A lot of the cast you mention I think were the Perez cast? And the names you are looking for are Helena and Vanessa Kapetelis, IIRC.
You've forgotten a very important cast member too -- ARTEMIS, created by Messner-Loebs. The fall of Wonder Woman plot she was introduced in was contrived as hell (it was that part of the 90s when DC was in one of its phases of killing/maiming/shaming the Big Three. Superman "died"; Bane snapped Batman's back, and Wonder Woman got demantled by a crazed Hippolyta). Artemis temporarily replaced Wonder Woman; a Bana-Mighdall Amazon (they were exiles who lived mercenary lives), she was this lovely mix of innocence and violence (kind of reminiscent of Leela from Doctor Who). "I am not violent! And I will cut the throat of any man who says I am!" Is one of her actual quotes. She had some great character development arcs on her own and is a lovely foil to Wonder Woman. I don't think she's been seen since Flashpoint. Artemis also had her own sidekick in her Requiem miniseries (John Byrne I think?), an ex-cop named Sojourner, who was awesome but sadly never used again. (Requiem is also hilarious because the superhero team Requiem joins, Hellenders, is clearly a parody of the Image comics team books popular at the time.)
Rucka gave her a very cool ambassadorial cast. I can't remember her assistant's name but she was cool, and there was Ferdinand the Gay Minotaur, who despite as ridiculous as that sounds, was fairly amazing, amongst others.
Heinberg, Picoult, et al gave her DOMA, including the head of DOMA and Tom Tressor. Simone kept that cast, and FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY added Etta Candy back into the gang, and a properly kickass version at that. "Woo f!%$in' woo."
OH! One more villain--Veronica Kale. A Rucka invention? I am not sure. She was pretty awesome, a business woman trying to discredit her basically, but she had a lot of flair. The ONLY thing David E Kelley got right for that awful pilot was using Veronica as a villain.
I am not sure what the point of this is except to say, Wonder Woman has LOADS of amazing friends and family and supporters to draw from, but they need to pick a cast, keep it, and develop it.
Etta's always been zaftig, and was in the Simone run. She was also muscular and powerful in that run. I hope she always remains these things. If someone Wallered her, I will be cutting a b#$+%.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd keep Etta athletic and active (again, look at my casting choice on my blog). Now If I was plotting long term, you'd find that Candy is her married name, and her maiden name is Waller (And of course CCH Pounder would play Amanda. The Wall shouldn't be a telephone pole.)
I'd keep Etta athletic and active. I'd also keep her zaftig.
Like this. She's not massive like her golden age predecessor (although I love her too), but she's got some meat on her bones, and she's absolutely hot. All the skinny minnies in comics get boring. Etta's a real woman.
Why would anyone want to re-boot that pig? You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...I should know!
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Why would anyone want to re-boot that pig? You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...I should know!
But Circe, if they make a Wonder Woman movie, it could be your big chance to light up the silver screen! (I mean, let's face it, your competitors for Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis are Cheetah and Giganta, so you're darn close to a shoe-in...)
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Why would anyone want to re-boot that pig? You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...I should know!But Circe, if they make a Wonder Woman movie, it could be your big chance to light up the silver screen! (I mean, let's face it, your competitors for Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis are Cheetah and Giganta, so you're darn close to a shoe-in...)
My fine dog-headed canine, reverse that sentiment. The "Circe" movie is a fine opportunity for Wonder Whinny to get some screen time, if I let her live awhile...
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Why would anyone want to re-boot that pig? You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...I should know!"Am I blue...."
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Circe, you don't happen to be a movie executive at Warner, do you?
On of the things I find very interesting about Wonder Woman Through the Ages is that - with few temporary exceptions - her outfit kept getting weirdly shorter and shorter until it really wasn't covering much in the 90's at all.
If we don't like the pants (I think they're fine, especially with the idea that the Amazons were equestrians) I'm pretty cool with her having decent shorts.
The Brave and the Bold Batman link was hilarious.
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In fairness, most women's costumes in the 90s suffered that way. It always makes me wonder why all the poor female superheroes everywhere should have to bikini wax (well, they don't have to, but I'd love to see them dare to illustrate the more realistic results if you assumed they didn't...).
For an even more in-depth look at all the variants of Wonder Woman's costume, I recommend giving these pages a look:
http://www.carolastrickland.com/comics/wwcentral/costume_indices/wwcost1.ht ml
Assembled by Wonder Woman uberfan Carol Strickland. (My only gripe is she complains about the Wonder-cape from the TV show, which while may have been a fashion faux pas--and utterly condemnable by Edna Mode--existed for the sole purpose of hiding harness wires for when she had to do certain aerial/climbing stunts, so I think the use of it should be forgiven.)
I'm actually cool with Wonder-pants. I don't really care one way or the other, but if you did something like the dark-blue-pants version of Adrienne Palicki's outfit from the failed TV show pilot, I thought that looked okay. I've also always kind of wanted to see straps added to her bodice so it doesn't always look like she's about to fall out of her top if she moves too much. I don't have a lot of "sacred cow" feelings about Wonder Woman's outfit because if you do enough research, you'll see it has so many variants anyway it's not like "there can be only one."
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Wow, Erica Durance really rocks that Wondy-with-pants look! (In a way Adrianne Palicki did not...)
In fairness, most women's costumes in the 90s suffered that way.
It's true. I think that's one of the reasons I like X-Men of that era. While Psylocke suffered similar issues, most of them actually had pants or something more functional (Rogue, Jean, Storm, Jubilee [well, shorts], Domino, among others come to mind).
It made more sense to me (though I often thought Psylocke's and Rogue's costumes should be switched, because Rogue, at least, was invulnerable).
But, meh, it was the 90s. There were lots of other problems in comics then.
You don't. Every character needs to be rebooted for a new generation. Even RoboCop is getting a 2.0 in the new movie. The only ones you don't reboot are the ones you stop writing period.And a few of them weren't Rob Liefeld's fault. (Sorry, sorry. I know he's an easy target... it's just that he's such an inviting one.)
Re: the actual thread topic: I think the question DC really needs to ask is, "How do we stop rebooting Wonder Woman?
If Wonder Woman were only being rebooted once every generation, it wouldn't be a problem.
In the comics she's been rebooted at least 3 times in the last 10 years, and two of those times were only within about a year of each other.
Part of why it's been so hard to get Wonder Woman on the big or small screen in live action form is because there are so many tweaks and variations on her origin, powers, personality, mission, etc. that no one can agree on which is the "best" one, or which one will work best for film/TV. It's also telling that even in the 1970s, the makers of the Lynda Carter show pretty much ignored the current comics continuity and instead the very earliest depictions of Wonder Woman from the Golden Age as the basis for the character--to avoid all the changes and baggage (including the then-recent powerless "mod Wonder Woman"). They knew it would just cause more trouble than good and just kept it as simple as they possibly could.
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Thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that there's a perception (not saying it's an *accurate* perception, but one nonetheless) that Wonder Woman's backstory is problematic, in a way that Batman and Superman's backstories are not, and that it needs to be 'fixed' somehow, which tends to result in Wonder Woman 'reboots' being far more wide-reaching than the gentle touchups and airbrushings of Batman and Superman's origin stories.
I'm not sure if some of the uncomfortable-ness with Wonder Woman's classic backstory has to do with Dr. Marston's quaint notions, or that Wonder Woman, like someone designed to be an accessorized action figure, gets powers from her magic bracelets and magic earrings and magic tiara and magic belt / lasso, or the odd sort of sexism that comes with her Amazon associations, or just an industry that has been typically dominated by male writers and editors (and catering to male fans) not really having the faintest clue of what to do and where to go or how to write a tale that isn't laden with cringe-worthy gender assumptions with an iconic female character.
And so we've got a character who came to 'man's world' as an 'ambassador of peace' and used a non-lethal weapon that restrained and incapacitated people, 'updated' to be a violent practical warrior from a warrior culture who carries a sword or axe around and is willing to whack the head off of a bad-guy, when the chips are down. Both are interesting characterizations, and I'd read a story about either version, a warrior Amazon or an ambassador of peace, who would have used her lasso to stop Maxwell Lord, 'cause that's what it's there for, but having one character veer from one extreme to the other would be like Batman deciding that he's going to start using automatic weapons and being all mashed up with Frank Castle.
As with some of my favorite DC characters, the Legion of Super-Heroes, who are on their third, fourth or fifth complete and utter reboot, drastically changing characterization, race and even species, I suspect that Wonder Woman's potential fanbase has been fractured by these previous incarnations. Fans of 'I come to make the world a better place' peace ambassador Diana are going to be put off by Miss-Hacks-a-Lot, and fans who grew up with the Maxwell Lord-decapitating warrior princess are going to be turned off by a wishy-washy peacenik Diana who tries to rehabilitate foes (as she did with Baroness von Gunther, back in the day).
Attempting to square that circle and have Wonder Woman be both a fierce warrior who pulls no punches when the **** is going down *and* yet also an advocate for nonviolent resolutions and rehabilitation after the punching is over seems likely to make Diana seem schizophrenic, and piss off *both* sides. (Since I'm not sure if the comic reading audience could grok someone willing to fight hard and to win, when necessary, but preferring not to, and not thinking their job as 'hero' is done when the fighting stops...)
The serialized nature of comics books tends to play against that, as well. Baroness von Gunther was a one-off. Pretty much since then, Wonder Woman's avowed mission and principles have, by editorial fiat, been an utter failure. The Cheetah will *never* be cured or redeemed or freed from her curse, because future writers will always want to dig that character out and use her as a villain again. Giganta will never see the error of her ways, because, same thing.
Heroes can never 'win' in that sense, because the villains, *even if you kill them,* will always come back, and even if one writer shows them with a profound moment of growth, five years later, someone else is going to write them exactly the way they used to be.
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Just as an exercise, these are are few of the variations we've seen in Wonder Woman's comic book mythos. I may have gotten a few of these wrong or mixed up, I'm just going from memory. This list is not comprehensive.
And no I have no idea what you're supposed to do with this.
Personal Origins and Source of Power
- Was Amazon born human, granted agelessness by Aphrodite, and developed super strength and abilities via Amazonian martial arts training. (Sensation Comics)
- Was fashioned from clay and infused with life and power by the gods (which gods also vary--sometimes it's all the gods, sometimes it's only the goddesses) (Wonder Woman Vol. 1 No. 1, with numerous variations)
- Is the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta (New 52)
Origins of the Amazons and why they live in Paradise Island/Themyscira:
- Were rescued from depradations of men thousands of years ago by the goddess Aphrodite who gave them Paradise Island where they could build a society based on peace and love, training in war only to protect themselves and their home and for personal discipline
- Were enslaved by Heracles, freed themselves when they recovered the magic girdle he had stolen from them, and found Paradise Island/Themyscira. (This might also be part of the Aphrodite story as well, I'm not sure, but there's a few variations.)
- Were the rebirthed souls of women enslaved by men given new life by the goddess Artemis (all of them were formed from clay at this point, but IIRC only Wonder Woman got the extra special powers). Then they still get enslaved by Heracles for some reason.
- Name changes back and forth between "Paradise Island," "Themyscira" and "New Themyscira."
Wonder Woman's Powers
- Strong enough to lift a car
- Strong enough to lift a plane
- Strong as Superman (which has also varied)
- Has super leaping only, cannot fly
- Cannot truly fly, but "glides on air currents"
- Flies
- Sometimes can communicate empathically with animals. Sometimes can't.
- While often described as having the "wisdom of Athena" it only sometimes has been reflected as a sort of preternatural awareness
- Can or cannot tell someone is telling the truth (without the lasso)
Wonder Woman's Gear
- Bracelets deflect bullets
- Bracelets deflect everything
- Bracelets when banged together can create a force field
- Bracelets when banged together can summon lightning
- Tiara is just a tiara
- Tiara becomes a boomerang
- Tiara can be used to communicate with Paradise Island/Themyscira
- Tiara summons the Invisible Jet
- Wonder Woman has an Invisible Jet
- Wonder Woman does not have an invisible jet
- The Invisible Jet is just a jet
- The invisible jet is actually a telepathic alien called a lansanarian that can take multiple forms
- The invisible jet was invented by WayneTech
- Wonder Woman's belt when removed depowers her
- Wonder Woman's belt when removed does nothing
- Wonder Woman's bracelets, when chained, depower her
- Wonder Woman's bracelets, when chained, do nothing
- Magic lasso forces people to tell truth
- Magic lasso forces people to SEE the truth of their souls (and thus can make them repent)
- Magic lasso can modify people's memories
- Magic lasso can force whoever is within to do whatever Diana says
- Magic lasso vibrations can be used to enable outfit change
Secret Identity
- Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, because the existence of Paradise Island is a secret and she must protect it.
- Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, because she feels she needs to see what life is like as an ordinary person
- Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, to give herself privacy and to access things a high profile superhero would be noticed accessing.
- All or none of the above.
- Wonder Woman would NEVER have a secret identity because she is the embodiment of truth and would never lie about anything.
- Wonder Woman does not have a secret identity because Paradise Island/Themyscira is NOT a secret and she is in fact its ambassador
- Diana's "normal" job is an ambassador
- Diana's "normal" job is a yeoman in the WAVES
- Diana's "normal" job is a Navy officer (lieutenant, IIRC)
- Diana's "normal" job is an agent of the Department of Metahuman Affairs
- Diana's "normal" job is working at Taco Whiz.
Supporting Cast
- Etta Candy and Steve Trevor, young, as relative peers
- Etta Candy and Steve Trevor older, married to each other
- Other variations on Etta Candy and Steve Trevor
- The Kapatelises and the Sandsmarks
- Boyfriend named Trevor Barnes
- Huge honking ambassadorial staff, including a gay minotaur who is a chef
- Boyfriend named Tom Tresser, plus a bunch of other DOMA agents
- A huge rotating cast of Amazons I'm not even going to start on
Wonder Woman's Mission is
- To fight Hitler and the Nazis
- To fight metahuman threats to the world
- To fight terrorists
- To teach "Man's World" the Amazonian way of love, truth, and peace
- To use brutal fighting techniques that are not loving, truthful, or peaceful to fight metahuman threats to the world
She went on this mission because
- Of stuff to do with Steve Trevor crashing on Paradise Island
- Of stuff to do with Diana Trevor, Steve's mother, crashing on Themyscira
- The Amazons thought it was a good idea
Wonder Woman's Personality is
- Warm, kind, and fighting only as a last resort
- Cold, brutal, and bloodthirsty
- Lofty and noble, hard to relate to
- Down to earth with a good sense of humor
- Worldly wise
- Utterly innocent
- Trusting and amiable
- Aloof, wary, and difficult to befriend
- All or none of the above
Thinking out loud here, but it seems to me that there's a perception (not saying it's an *accurate* perception, but one nonetheless) that Wonder Woman's backstory is problematic, in a way that Batman and Superman's backstories are not, and that it needs to be 'fixed' somehow, which tends to result in Wonder Woman 'reboots' being far more wide-reaching than the gentle touchups and airbrushings of Batman and Superman's origin stories.
I'm not sure if some of the uncomfortable-ness with Wonder Woman's classic backstory has to do with Dr. Marston's quaint notions, or that Wonder Woman, like someone designed to be an accessorized action figure, gets powers from her magic bracelets and magic earrings and magic tiara and magic belt / lasso, or the odd sort of sexism that comes with her Amazon associations, or just an industry that has been typically dominated by male writers and editors (and catering to male fans) not really having the faintest clue of what to do and where to go or how to write a tale that isn't laden with cringe-worthy gender assumptions with an iconic female character.
And so we've got a character who came to 'man's world' as an 'ambassador of peace' and used a non-lethal weapon that restrained and incapacitated people, 'updated' to be a violent practical warrior from a warrior culture who carries a sword or axe around and is willing to whack the head off of a bad-guy, when the chips are down. Both are interesting characterizations, and I'd read a story about either version, a warrior Amazon or an ambassador of peace, who would have used her lasso to stop Maxwell Lord, 'cause that's what it's there for, but having one character veer from one extreme to the other would be like Batman deciding that he's going to start using automatic weapons and being all mashed up with Frank Castle.
As with some of my favorite DC characters, the Legion of Super-Heroes, who are on their third, fourth or fifth complete and utter reboot, drastically changing characterization, race and even species, I...
LONG LIVE THE LEGION!!!!!!!
In whatever incarnation.
Just as an exercise, these are are few of the variations we've seen in Wonder Woman's comic book mythos. I may have gotten a few of these wrong or mixed up, I'm just going from memory. This list is not comprehensive.
And no I have no idea what you're supposed to do with this.
** spoiler omitted **...
this is a Damn good rundown.
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Just as an exercise, these are are few of the variations we've seen in Wonder Woman's comic book mythos. I may have gotten a few of these wrong or mixed up, I'm just going from memory. This list is not comprehensive.
And no I have no idea what you're supposed to do with this.
** spoiler omitted **...
And that's the quandary right there.
A writer comes along and tries to write a definitive story about Diana, and *no matter what they do, they're wrong.*
There is no 'definitive Diana.' Each writer has to look at her history and decide what is the essence of the character, from a mish mash of mutually contradictory tales.
Donna Troy's backstory was so muddled that Wolfman and Perez dedicated a fantastic issue of the Teen Titans to sorting it out, in 'Who is Donna Troy?,' and it ended up getting snarled up again later, and the character has been abandoned for Wonder Girl 2.0, who, herself, has already been retconned massively...
With characters like Superman and Batman, stuff gets added from time to time (Kandor, Phantom Zone, Kryptonite, Joe Chill, the League of Assassins, etc.), but there seems to be a better handle on what's an essential part of Superman or Batman, and back-fitted changes don't generally result in any significant change to their characterization.
If the company that owns the character and the fans of that character are conflicted about who Diana is, and what she stands for, can the writers hired to 'write a Wonder Woman story!' be blamed for having so much trouble pleasing anyone?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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At least she's not Hawkman...
*ducks*
Taking DQ's list, I kind of wonder (ha!) if she's a natural elseworld's character, telling one offs of a mix and match.
Personally I like
- Was fashioned from clay and infused with life and power by the gods (which gods also vary--sometimes it's all the gods, sometimes it's only the goddesses) (Wonder Woman Vol. 1 No. 1, with numerous variations)
- Were rescued from depradations of men thousands of years ago by the goddess Aphrodite who gave them Paradise Island where they could build a society based on peace and love, training in war only to protect themselves and their home and for personal discipline
- Strong enough to lift a plane
- Has super leaping only, cannot fly
- Bracelets deflect bullets
- Tiara becomes a boomerang
- The Invisible Jet is just a jet
- Wonder Woman's belt when removed does nothing
- Wonder Woman's bracelets, when chained, do nothing (When consensually bound loses powers though)
- Wonder Woman does not have a secret identity because Paradise Island/Themyscira is NOT a secret and she is in fact its ambassador
- Other variations on Etta Candy and Steve Trevor
- The Kapatelises and the Sandsmarks
- To teach "Man's World" the Amazonian way of love, truth, and peace
- Warm, kind, and fighting only as a last resort
I really need to write more on that blog.
Actually even the Lynda Carter show received a reboot between the first two seasons. Originally it was set during the classic World War 2 period and than between seasons suddenly found itself in the present day, with a lot of lookalike descendants filling in the same support roles. (Steve Trevor being replaced by Steve Trevor Jr. played by the same actor)
Part of why it's been so hard to get Wonder Woman on the big or small screen in live action form is because there are so many tweaks and variations on her origin, powers, personality, mission, etc. that no one can agree on which is the "best" one, or which one will work best for film/TV. It's also telling that even in the 1970s, the makers of the Lynda Carter show pretty much ignored the current comics continuity and instead the very earliest depictions of Wonder Woman from the Golden Age as the basis for the character--to avoid all the changes and baggage (including the then-recent powerless "mod Wonder Woman"). They knew it would just cause more trouble than good and just kept it as simple as they possibly could.
That wasn't a "reboot," LazarX. I define a "reboot" as actually rewriting the character's history and abilities, if not entirely starting a story over from scratch.
If you actually watched the show (I have, several times, and I own the DVDs), you would see the change in time period was explained. The Wonder Woman character was the same person, she had the same history, memory, personality, and the same powers. All of the events that happened in World War II still happened --- there were even a few episodes where she flashed back to things she did during World War II.
That's not a reboot. That's a setting change.
Which happened, by the way, because the show switched networks, and the new network didn't want to pay for a period show, which is more costly. That was something that was forced upon them, it was not a creative decision borne of its own merit. Because of the network change, they COULD HAVE in fact rebooted the show and recreated its history, etc., but instead they in fact chose NOT to reboot the show, but carry on using the previous season's history as backdrop. Yes, it was silly that "Steve Trevor Jr." is strangely identical to his father, but they wanted to keep Lyle Waggoner. *shrug*
This is also rather tangential to my point, which is that the show tried to keep things as simple as possible. Actually, the fact that they chose not to rewrite its own history even over something as volatile as a network change kind of proves that they were trying not to do anything to confuse anyone as much as they possibly could (while still working within the restrictions of the Networks' demands).
The tv show as mainly set up as a Lynda Carter vehicle given that you had the rare combination of an beauty show class figure and a woman athletic enough to occasionally do her own stunts.
Given Lynda Carter was largely an unknown as an actress before she was cast as Wonder Woman, and she was cast out of a very large pool of women who all auditioned for the part, I am not sure how you can declare that the show was "set up" as a vehicle for someone nobody had ever heard of before the show started.
(the producers were less than thrilled to find out it was actually her hanging from a helicopter in one scene as opposed to a stunt double)
I know the helicopter story but I've never heard that the producers were upset by it. Source?
And I think Ms. Carter had to do that stunt because IIRC most of her stunt doubles were men and they needed a face shot.
And eh, Lindsay Wagner did the same thing on her show. No big deal. :)
Also keep in mind the TV show was like most of the other superhero TV shows of the period that the plots were brought down to a given leven of mundanity given the difficulty and the expense of actually trying to live up to comic book standards.
70s superhero shows didn't have a lot of fantastical elements but most of them stayed true to their superhero origins.
The point is, part of why the show worked and stayed on the air for 3 years (during a troubled time of television, when there were lots of things like writer's strikes) is because they kept the backstory reasonable and accessible.
Carter was not exactly a total unknown.
Given Lynda Carter was largely an unknown as an actress before she was cast as Wonder Woman
Note emphasis. I don't think she was especially famous for bit parts in Starsky and Hutch, which was on TV one year before Wonder Woman went on air. Lynda Carter has been quoted in several interviews, including the one on the 1st season DVD box set, that she recalls she only had $25 in the bank when she got the call that she got the part. She hadn't been exactly thrown a lot of bones by the entertainment industry by that point.).
And all I am saying is that Wonder Woman show was not intended to be a Lynda Carter vehicle. What you said originally suggested they created the show to showcase her. They did not. They created the show and then cast the actress they felt was best for the part.
Sure, once it and she was a hit, they wanted to keep a person with star quality (and keep her safe).
Look, I am not trying to get into a fight with you over the minute details of Wonder Woman. But you've got a lot of things just a little bit off--and if we're going to talk about the future of Wonder Woman, we should try to get the past right as possible. If you can maybe get a copy of the TV show DVD boxsets, there's some really useful documentaries on them that are quite informative. (ETA: Not that Lynda Carter's history is important per se in the history of Wonder Woman--although that's arguable--but you implied that they made Wonder Woman for the purpose of showing off Lynda Carter, and maybe I misread into it, but I got the sense you were dismissing the relevance of the series on the history of Wonder Woman as a whole because you see it as an actress vehicle rather than a character vehicle. It was at the start a character vehicle. Certainly, again, once it was a success, it was both. But that doesn't diminish its place in the history of Wonder Woman. And because it's the ONE example of a successful live action Wonder Woman series, it does need to be taken into account when discussing Wonder Woman reboots, movies, etc.)
If you've played any of the Elder Scrolls games, she did voiceovers for Three, Four, and Five.
I wasn't aware the Elder Scrolls had been made in the 1970s, and would be something a 1970s audience would be impressed with. ;)
But if we're going over her whole career, of course she's done lots of work acting and singing since then. Off the top of my head, after Wonder Woman ended, she did indeed get several showcase pieces in the form of "variety hours" and such that were popular on TV at the time. She was in that show I'm blanking on that also starred Loni Anderson in the 1980s. Several years ago she was in the movies "Sky High" and the movie remake of "The Dukes of Hazzard" (where she recounted in an interview she scared the pants off of another actor with her stunt driving, which she had learned to do from stunt doubles on the Wonder Woman set). She played Chloe's mom Moira Sullivan in Smallville. Amongst many other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.
And yes, she's done a lot of voices for Bethesda. Her husband is the CEO of Zenimax, after all.
Currently she is enjoying a successful singing career and I've noticed she's been in a lot of interviews recently related to that (you can find them on YouTube).
As an aside, I saw her at Capital Pride in June and I'm fairly certain her Amazon agelessness is still in effect. :)
Diana will never work as a character until she is allowed to be just that--a character. Not the 'feminine ideal'. Not a mirror by which to examine our culture as an outsider. Not a poster child for feminism. She needs to be a person with foibles, inner conflict, and idiosyncratic passions.
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Diana will never work as a character until she is allowed to be just that--a character. Not the 'feminine ideal'. Not a mirror by which to examine our culture as an outsider. Not a poster child for feminism. She needs to be a person with foibles, inner conflict, and idiosyncratic passions.
I have seen Diana written well as a character -- a number of writers have done a good job at that, from Perez to Simone (Gail Simone, much as I love her work, had some plotting issues on her run, but she certainly nailed the character).
I think sometimes the attitude that she must be an ideal or an icon comes from fans or execs more than it does from writers (although I have also seen writers fall into that trap--I think, at least based on what I've seen in interviews with him, Joss Whedon's vision of Wonder Woman made that mistake, for example, which is why I am glad his script got nixed). The trick is to find a good writer and let them do their thing.
Diana will never work as a character until she is allowed to be just that--a character. Not the 'feminine ideal'. Not a mirror by which to examine our culture as an outsider. Not a poster child for feminism. She needs to be a person with foibles, inner conflict, and idiosyncratic passions.I have seen Diana written well as a character -- a number of writers have done a good job at that, from Perez to Simone (Gail Simone, much as I love her, had some plotting issues on her run, but she certainly nailed the character).
I think sometimes the attitude that she must be an ideal or an icon comes from fans or execs more than it does from writers (although I have also seen writers fall into that trap--I think, at least based on what I've seen in interviews with him, Joss Whedon's vision of Wonder Woman made that mistake, for example, which is why I am glad his script got nixed). The trick is to find a good writer and let them do their thing.
:-D
Heh, I'd love a Wonder Woman book from PAD
I Googled PAD and got Peripheral Artery Disease. I doubt that's right.... :)
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Total agreement on the need for a good villain. I doesn't even have to be a great concept, but definitely needs a good *actor.*
Michelle Forbes does the voice of Circe, in the DC Online game, and she takes it a bit over the top at times (I would rather she not draw her inspiration from Jeremy Irons character in the first Dungeons & Dragons movie...), but she's the kind of actress I'd want to play someone like Circe in a live-action film, because she's got some presence to her (and a mesmerizing voice). A January-Jones-as-Emma-Frost, she is not.
As for the outfit, if Songbird, Phoenix, Wasp, Black Widow, Spider-Woman, etc. can be sexy in full costumes, then there's no reason why Wonder Woman can't wear pants and still be wildly attractive.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re costume.
I like this fan's take on Jim Lee's version.
Peter Allen David
Ah! Peter David. I'd never seen him referred to like that. I haven't read a lot of his stuff but I like what I've read. He did the Illyria miniseries (from the Buffyverse) awhile back which was probably to date the best thing to come out of Buffyverse comics.
I'd be interested in his take on Wonder Woman, sure.
Regarding villains, the one thing I liked about David E. Kelley's proposed show was he was going to make Veronica Cale the villain. I know many people prefer a mythical enemy for Diana (and that's good too), but I like the idea of an ordinary but socially powerful woman who fears Wonder Woman because she is an outsider, and thinks her "message of peace" must be too good to be true. It allows for some interesting directions for stories to take. (Unfortunately, the way DEK's Wonder Woman was written, effectively Wonder Woman WAS the villain and Cale's motives were entirely sympathetic.)
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I don't remember anything along those lines. I remember him commenting that he didn't understand how Greek Myth meshed with "Star-Spangled Panties" so he was ditching the latter. He also mentioned he wanted to cast Colbie Smothers as Diana.
And a movie adaptation would probably have the same issue. Comic book movies often suffer when the director or producer tries to make them more appealing to a broader (non-comic book fan) audience, which often results in a worse story and less appeal to both comic and non-comic book fans. I was optimistic when Joss Whedon was discussing directing a Wonder Woman movie, but he wanted to 'reimagine' Wonder Woman (no Greek mythology elements, probably played by Sarah Michelle Gellar).
My source is this interview:
http://www.avclub.com/articles/joss-whedon,14136
Well, I'll tell you one thing that sort of exemplifies my feelings. The idea was always that she's awesome, she's fabulous, she's strong, she's beautiful, she's well-intentioned, she thinks she's a great big hero[...].
Basically, Joss Whedon's interpretation was that she sees herself as the "icon" others see her as.
A big, fat, f!%@ing HELL NO to that.
The quote goes on to say he thought it was Steve Trevor's job to basically teach her how to be human. Gag me with a rusty chainsaw.
Wonder Woman teaches us how to be human and since Joss Whedon didn't understand that, I'm grateful every day he was allowed nowhere near her.
(Also his talk about the bracelets in the interviews shows he knows nothing of Wonder Woman's history and didn't bother to do any research.)
I prefer Lynda Carter's interpretation (You can see this quote in print here, but IIRC she says this in one of the interviews with her on the TV show DVD box sets):
Wonder Woman is not impressed with herself. She doesn’t think her abilities are a big deal. She does what she’s capable of, and expects others to do the same.
That's the Wonder Woman I want to see: down to earth, encouraging others to be their best, whatever that "best" is.
Joss Whedon would be incapable of writing that; it's just not angsty enough.
Mind, I like many things Joss Whedon has done, and I think he is a good writer and director, but I think he was a terrible pick for Wonder Woman and I'm very glad that fiasco never happened.