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I'm running Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition. And one of my characters is rolling a Dwarven Cleric, focused on making items to replace his now dead Ninja.
He has informed me that via his racials, traits, and class features from Forge master? or something, i think its a alternate class for cleric, that he is able to get the cost for crafting item up to a discount of 45% for items that are specific to race, a skill, alignment and made of metal or stone. I've asked him to post his character on the forums and let the horde of dnd readers inform him if he is smart or incorrect.
Not a trust issue, as i know he is working within the rules and has checked the forums thus far for his new guy. But I'm curious mainly what is the total discount you can get when making items?
I'm going to link him this in the hopes he will post it here. Again not a issue of the Dm lording over my player, lol. He is smart to want to make items that cost less. Especially seeing as the AP doesn't provide that much loot overall, and I'm going to have to add in extra as in anyway.
Oh and it doesn't help that in every possible treasure area or loot area they have missed one item, or one cache of treasure hidden, obviously so to not be found. Now that i wont give them, its their own fault for not looking hard enough!
what I could find:
Master Smith (Ex)
At 5th level, a forgemaster can craft mundane metal items quickly, using half their gp value to determine progress, and can craft magical metal items in half the normal amount of time.
This would help on crafting mundane item costs, and help with time spent crafting magical items, but no discount to magic items made.
Trait: Eldritch Smith - When Crafting stone or metal items you reduce the cost by 5%
Since Crafting a magic item technically gets you the item at 50% cost + time, this trait would bring him to the 45%
I think he may also be refrencing this part of magic item creation
Once you have a final cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Skill to Use
Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use
Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the cost by 30%
Also the trait Hedge magician reduces cost an additional five percent IIRC
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Question, when you have multiple sources of cost reduction or time reduction, do they stack into one total number or do you have to apply them one at a time to the new base cost each time? for instance, rather than going, ok item made at a total of -45%, would it be more correct to apply the percentages one at a time to the new base cost each time?
Not sure if the number would be the same doing it that way, but that was how it was explained to me by a Dm in 3.5, but obviously this is pathfinder not 3.5
From items he posted
1)+2 Sacred helm of me – cost 2750 skill of 11
2)+2 Amulet of natural armor – cost 2200 skill 16
3)+1 deathless full plate with Vital guard, deflecting- cost 2200 skill 11
4)Steel buckler of shield +4 shield bonus – cost 825 gold skill 16
5)Amazing tools of the manufacturer- 3300 skill 11
6)+1 dwarven waraxe of countering - cost 2207 skill 11
7)+2 int belt –cost 1100 skill 11
1. I don't know what this is.
2. Amulet of Natural Armor +2 Base price 8000, 45% discount: 3600
3.+1 deathless full plate with Vital Guard, +2 total bonus is 4000 Vital guard is 500, fullplate is 1500 ; total cost 6000 add discount end cost: 2700
4 I couldn't find this but I assume it is a +1 buckler with a shield spell cast onto it for on use cast shield spell? that would make it +2 4000 before discount end cost: 1800
5. I don't know what this is
6. +1 dwarven waraxe of countering. Countering=+1 bonus so +2 at 4000 end cost: 1800
7. +2 int belt. well a +2 int helm is 4000 after discount: 1800. (I don't know if you as a GM would charge more for the slot being belt or not so that would be up to you)
And as an aside I would probably limit the cheese on this if it were me. for instance:
A dwarf with Hedge Magician + Eldritch Smith making an item that requires 5 ranks in craft and requires him to be chaotic good would give 50% +5%(eldritch smith) +5%(hedge magician) + 10%(skill rank required) +30%(required alignment) on a metal item if someone wanted to try to try to read the rules that way to me I would not allow it.
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From items he posted
1)+2 Sacred helm of me – cost 2750 skill of 11
2)+2 Amulet of natural armor – cost 2200 skill 16
3)+1 deathless full plate with Vital guard, deflecting- cost 2200 skill 11
4)Steel buckler of shield +4 shield bonus – cost 825 gold skill 16
5)Amazing tools of the manufacturer- 3300 skill 11
6)+1 dwarven waraxe of countering - cost 2207 skill 11
7)+2 int belt –cost 1100 skill 111. I don't know what this is.
2. Amulet of Natural Armor +2 Base price 8000, 45% discount: 3600
3.+1 deathless full plate with Vital Guard, +2 total bonus is 4000 Vital guard is 500, fullplate is 1500 ; total cost 6000 add discount end cost: 2700
4 I couldn't find this but I assume it is a +1 buckler with a shield spell cast onto it for on use cast shield spell? that would make it +2 4000 before discount end cost: 1800
5. I don't know what this is
6. +1 dwarven waraxe of countering. Countering=+1 bonus so +2 at 4000 end cost: 1800
7. +2 int belt. well a +2 int helm is 4000 after discount: 1800. (I don't know if you as a GM would charge more for the slot being belt or not so that would be up to you)And as an aside I would probably limit the cheese on this if it were me. for instance:
A dwarf with Hedge Magician + Eldritch Smith making an item that requires 5 ranks in craft and requires him to be chaotic good would give 50% +5%(eldritch smith) +5%(hedge magician) + 10%(skill rank required) +30%(required alignment) on a metal item if someone wanted to try to try to read the rules that way to me I would not allow it.
Thats one of my questions, is there a in general limit to the amount of discount able to applied to item creation, regardless of the source. Like i originally thought it was 30 or 35 percent as in a previous pathfinder game a wizard crafter was able to do so by limiting it to race and alignment, but he had told me there is a cap on the total discount, but i cannot find where it might say this.
Edit: As far as the math in concerned, I am concerned if his math is correct. As magic items can drastically change the game and he already has quite a few. Your cots seem a bit higher than what he has posted, so hopefully he can explain his math on here so someone smarter than me can answer him, lol.
Edit 2: Uh, far as Slot changing goes, I'm going to charge him 500 gp, if the crafting rules do not already cover the cost of changing a items usual slot. And on the issue of how much discount to allow him, it is a concern. Obviously I don't want him crapping out crazy amounts of magic items, but i don't feel i should limit his creativity any further than the rules do. So unless it comes out on this post as he is making things at ridiculously small amounts of gp then I'll allow him to make what he can get away with.
Really I would say the limit is up to you as the GM.
From what I have read, Paizo in general seems to think crafting is too strong (why it is not allowed in pfs games I believe?) and it really comes down to if your player is breaking the game/ people are not having fun.
If using his crafting he is able to have slightly better magic items than his fellow players, that makes sense. He sacrificed some gain: traits, feats, etc and should be able to get better magic items because of it.
However if is Wealth and item power is 2 or 3 times more powerful than the people he is playing with, that would make me unhappy if I was playing there. Now if he crafts for everyone and you allow 30-40% item prices, you will soon need to either run scenarios geared for higher level players, allow them to stomp content for their level, or tweak the content they are playing.
Published scenarios assume a certain wealth per level and when someone is more than double that, or if the whole party is it can cause problems.
tldr: Find a balance that helps everyone to have fun, but also helps this player feel he made the right choice with his crafting.
Question, when you have multiple sources of cost reduction or time reduction, do they stack into one total number or do you have to apply them one at a time to the new base cost each time? for instance, rather than going, ok item made at a total of -45%, would it be more correct to apply the percentages one at a time to the new base cost each time?
Not sure if the number would be the same doing it that way, but that was how it was explained to me by a Dm in 3.5, but obviously this is pathfinder not 3.5
Pretty sure you apply them to the new base price because you could potentially get items at up to 90% off otherwise. 70% off (Alignment + Skill restriction, 50% flat for it being crafted) is good enough already.
From what I understand, if one were to add all the cost deductions together, or rather subtract them you would end up getting them for free
100% cost
-50% (making it yourself)
-30% (specifying alignment/class to use)
-10% (Specifying skill check to use)
-5% (Hedge Magician)
-5% (eldritch smith)
=0%
So congratulations, you no longer have to pay gold for any item!
...ok, so that might be looking at it the wrong way.
Perhaps, if you look at the deductions as being taken away from the new total that it would take to make the item.
For example. Making a decanter of endless water
Original cost: 9000gp
New "Make it yourself" cost. 4500gp
Now, deductions brought about by specific other methods can apply
4500gp
-30 percent if it can only be used by clerics
-10 percent if it requires 5 ranks in survival to use it
-5 percent if it is made of metal or stone
-5 percent as you took Hedge Magician
New total cost: 2250gp!
So essentially, a quarter of the items cost!!
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From what I understand, if one were to add all the cost deductions together, or rather subtract them you would end up getting them for free
100% cost
-50% (making it yourself)
-30% (specifying alignment/class to use)
-10% (Specifying skill check to use)
-5% (Hedge Magician)
-5% (eldritch smith)
=0%So congratulations, you no longer have to pay gold for any item!
...ok, so that might be looking at it the wrong way.
Perhaps, if you look at the deductions as being taken away from the new total that it would take to make the item.
For example. Making a decanter of endless water
Original cost: 9000gp
New "Make it yourself" cost. 4500gp
Now, deductions brought about by specific other methods can apply4500gp
-30 percent if it can only be used by clerics
-10 percent if it requires 5 ranks in survival to use it
-5 percent if it is made of metal or stone
-5 percent as you took Hedge MagicianNew total cost: 2250gp!
So essentially, a quarter of the items cost!!
Yeah, i wont be letting him making anything for free. The discount is going to apply to the base cost of 50% of the purchased price. Considering what I'm seeing, and BTW he doesn't have Hedge Magician as his trait choices prohibit selecting traits from the same category, I may force a general limit on his own items that is slight higher from himself, and if he makes items for the party it will be lower. Like maybe a limitation of 35 for himself, and 25 for the party. Of course, that isn't going to stop him from charging his fellow adventurers a.. 'service cost' shall we say?
Edit: That is to say 35% for items that he makes for himself and 25% for items made for the party. I'll wait a day to make my decision. It may be lower or higher but given what has been said here, providing a challenge for the party and having fun is a factor to consider and your right @Jayder22, that is something as the Dm I need to consider foremost before simply rules. Although I may go as low as 30% for himself, and 25% for the group.
Also if he is making items that are insanely good for next to nothing the party will simply be selling all the loot for its normal cost and investing everything into him to further increase the level of magical gear they can get.
Now while downtime is not abundant at all times this limits his ability to craft obviously, but over the course of the AP I'm sure he can find the time to make the majority if not all of his desired items.
As a general proposition the cost reductions for race, class, alignment, etc. are designed so the *DM* can make appropriate deductions to items he creates to put into the game.
This is because the more limitations you put on an item the harder it is to find someone to buy it- thus decreasing the cost. (a longsword only Worshippers of X can use is harder to sell than one anyone can use)
They are *not* designed to allow PC's to skitch and scratch extra deductions on items.
If the PC LG dwarven cleric is making an item only LG Dwarven Clerics can make then its worth 0 deduction because he's making it for himself.
Take the item he's making. Compare it to similar items *without* the weird deductions. Price it accordingly. Ignore alignment, deity, race, and class restrictions if all he's doing is making things for the party.
This is why crafting requires the arbitration and oversight of the DM. To prevent this kind of stuff from going on.
-S
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To the OP:
You're the DM. You need to read this link and, in that post, there is another link so read that too.
That should clear up some of your questions about reducing costs with restrictions. Ultimately, it's up to you, but I suggest this:
If everyone who ever made a generic magic item could choose to limit it so that:
1. Strangers and enemies would never try to take it because it's worthless to them,
2. If they lose it, total strangers might just return it to them for a reward,
3. And most of all, they could save a third or more of the cost to make the item,
Don't you think EVERYONE would do this? Save a fortune, make more items with the fortune they saved, be even more powerful, and never have to worry about anyone taking their stuff. This is also true of they make it for someone else, just restrict it to that person and save a fortune.
Doing this should make it MORE expensive, not less.
Furthermore, if everyone could do it for every generic item, then everything in the book would be priced this way. That discount would already be in the price of every item and there would be an EXTRA COST to make it usable by other people too.
As a DM, you'd be making a huge mistake allowing any player to ever use these restrictions for items for themselves, items for the rest of the group, or items they plan to sell for cash. It would be hugely imbalanced.
So why do these restrictions exist?
They are for the DM to be used to create interesting cultural items for specific races, specific religions, specific areas. It's a tool you can use, for example, to for a race of merfolk to create items that let them move around on land more easily, restricted to only merfolk, so they could crank them out for their army at reduced cost. See, when the DM does it for RP reasons, it's just called crafting a campaign world, but when a player does it to save a few gold and basically metagame the system, it's just cheese.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Also, any item that is not created explicitly as listed in the book is a custom item and requires GM approval. If you think the player is getting away with too many "discounts" then don't allow the item.
So while he gets his discounts for his class features and racial abilities, the discounts for "restrictions" are entirely up to your discretion. Personally, I tend to have those restrictions reduce the final "sale" price but not the crafting cost.
As DM_Blake said, otherwise every random cloak of protection the PCs find should be restricted to Lawful Neutral halfling fighters with profession(guard) or some such.
As a slightly more lenient (w.r.t. crafting) GM, I'd allow players to use the race and alignment restrictions, but they'd only reduce the price of the final item, not the cost to craft it.
The skill restriction (assuming that means that a skill roll is needed to activate the item) makes more sense as it interferes with everyone trying to use it, but the crafting guidelines don't lay out what the DC would be. If you take a skill limitation to only mean the users needs to have ranks in the skill, then yeah, it should also only apply to the price.
why is it everyone always works to stifle the creativity of a player. it makes no since to do this it only causes bad feelings between a player and his dm. people claim it to be power gaming so lets change the rules or interpet them to make it easier on me to suit my game, is this not power gaming on the dms part? why not instead make him work for his creations so he has a better appreciation for them?
In my current game, I have literally said "Use the crafting rules however you want. Have fun." I don't even care if they make duplicates of existing items way cheaper than they should be. I'm even applying the Making Crafting Work rules to magic items, meaning that 120,000 gp item won't take half a year to make.
But even then, the race and alignment restrictions only reduce the price, not the cost. (If you reread that section, a skill limit says it reduces cost, while a race restriction says it reduces price.)
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In my current game, I have literally said "Use the crafting rules however you want. Have fun." I don't even care if they make duplicates of existing items way cheaper than they should be. I'm even applying the Making Crafting Work rules to magic items, meaning that 120,000 gp item won't take half a year to make.
But even then, the race and alignment restrictions only reduce the price, not the cost. (If you reread that section, a skill limit says it reduces cost, while a race restriction says it reduces price.)
Wow, I totally overlooked that. It does only adjust the price, not the cost of creation.
Reading the section itself it says that a judgement call is needed for some items.
Ultimately I've decided to restrict the maximum bonus to 20% and only allow feat, trait, class features and racial features that reduce the cost of items during creation. Further.. given the quite clearly stated fact that the 'guidelines' of wealth by level are just guidelines and are not exactly back up by science I've restricted pre game item creation by only allowing a pc to craft 3 magical items, not including scrolls, wands and potions or other mundane gear.
Edit: Thank all of you for your advice on this matter. Also I've specified to my pc's that making items with reductions such as Alignment or class or skill is just not allowed, outside of standard items that do this already.
This is a effort and hope on my part that the game will not suddenly become flooded with extra specific magical gear that the party never needs to get rid of, and does nothing but sell the normal loot and invest further, over and over into their crafter.
While they can still invest in him, he still gets all discounts from his racial features, traits, feats and class features but not as much as before. At higher levels I'm not sure if he can get up to the total of 20% with those restrictions or not, but as it stands i think he has a 10% discount currently.
And perhaps given his interest in being a cleric based on crafting and godly persuits I May allow him to take Hedge Magician... but if i do that then all the players would be able to pick multible traits from the same trees and as i understand it, traits cant really be cheesed, but they can provide unintended benefits if the normal restriction isn't applied.
Feel free to comment further on my choice, and hate me as you will or agree with me as you will. but it is my choice.
Edit 2: Specifically Ty to @Dm Blake, @Selgard, @Ryric and @Magimaster your posts made the difference in my decisions.