Crane Wing+Snake Fang

[Driver 325 yards]

The creation of Master of Many Styles means that the developers intended the possibility of several different styles working together. That is the whole point. RAI if you will.

Now it is true that it is not intended to work together for anyone other than a person playing a monk of many styles

[Kazumetsa]

It really does just come down to a DM opinion and decision.

Honestly though, you have to be Hit before you can Deflect. A complete miss is an entirely different thing. If a "Deflect" counted as a miss, then technically you could "Deflect" a miss and just do it all the time.

That being said, if you're in Crane fighting defensively or in total defense, it's likely your opponent will miss often as is. In which case, you'd be returning all of those attacks. I think these two stances still work together just Perfectly - However they don't trigger off of one another.

[Funky Badger]

I wouldn't allow them to stack. A miss is missing the AC (or via miss chance etc.) Crane Wing is strong enough as it is.

[Driver 325 yards]

A deflected attack is a missed attack. Just because a weapon makes contact with you as you are blocking it does not mean you hit. I guess that is the only argument that you have left though so you are forced to make that semantics argument.

Remember, the question is not whether your SWORD made contact. The question is whether your ATTACK hit or missed. An ATTACK is more than just making contact. Clearly, the ATTACK misses when you block with Crane Wing.

[Driver 325 yards]

Funky Badger wrote:

I wouldn't allow them to stack. A miss is missing the AC (or via miss chance etc.) Crane Wing is strong enough as it is.

You are making a judgment call on whether the combo breaks the game and should therefore be nerfed when you state the Crane Wing is strong enough as it is. Okay, fine that is intellectually honest and I can accept that

When you say a miss is missing your AC, you are creating a definition that does not exist in Pathfinder. Now maybe you are suggesting that this is the definition that Pathfinder developer should accept when and if they nerf the combo. If that is the case, then once again, at least you are being intellectually honest.

My problem is with the people who argue that RAW or RAI as it exist now suggests that they don't work together. There is no basis for that. MoMS means that they were meant to work together. Other styles were meant to work together as well. There may be other combinations of styles that have a very powerful effect. If there are, no doubt there will be another request for a nerf in the guise of "ambiguity"

[Kazumetsa]

Altus Lucrim wrote:

Playing a Moms who wants to take both of these feats. My question is this Does the deflection from Crane Wing trigger the AoO from Snake Fang. I am hearing from a few people locally who believe that it does not due to the wording stating that "A deflected attack deals no damage" it does not say that the attack missed. Clarification desired.

DM's decision. It's just such a fine line that it's all opinions on here with little to no real ruling going on.

I'll cross my fingers for yah Altus! Have fun with that argument and whatever the decision don't be butthurt about it. Those two stances still work really well together regardless.

[Claxon]

I would like to see this addressed via FAQ. I fall on the side that the intention was that the miss is meant to be failing to meet or beat your opponents AC. I can see where the difference in opinion arises easily, but as a DM I would never allow Crane Wing and Snake Style to feed off one another with having an official ruling that explicitly stated that they did.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Chris Kenney wrote:

Personally (And bear in mind that I've been up for 19 hours at this point and this is off the cuff) I would be tempted to rule that a nonsense question and you can't use Crane Wing on touch attacks for precisely that reason - to avoid a touch attack is to avoid being touched, and Crane Wing by strictest definition involves touch.

But with sleep I could probably be persuaded there's a rules argument against that interpretation that's valid.

There is a difference between someone touching you and you touching them. Again, if a caster has a touch attack spell, he has to touch YOU with it. You don't get hit with it if you touch him. So it's not nonsense.

Imagine the touch spell as some glowing energy in the caster's hand he's trying to touch you with and deflecting the attack meaning you deflect his arm at the elbow or further up, if it helps you understand/envision.

[Lemartes]

Can you use crane's wing on a fire elemental's attack? Anyways with regard to the snake and crane style stacking...I wouldn't have initially said that they did, now I'm more not 100% sure. Regardless, I would like to know the designer's intent.

[Funky Badger]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

You are making a judgment call on whether the combo breaks the game and should therefore be nerfed when you state the Crane Wing is strong enough as it is. Okay, fine that is intellectually honest and I can accept that

When you say a miss is missing your AC, you are creating a definition that does not exist in Pathfinder. Now maybe you are suggesting that this is the definition that Pathfinder developer should accept when and if they nerf the combo. If that is the case, then once again, at least you are being intellectually honest.

I don't care if or how they change (if ever) the combo. I interpret it as above - its really a mountain out of a molehill though 1 more or less attacks of opportunity in a round, no big deal.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Lemartes wrote:

Can you use crane's wing on a fire elemental's attack? Anyways with regard to the snake and crane style stacking...I wouldn't have initially said that they did, now I'm more not 100% sure. Regardless, I would like to know the designer's intent.

Fire Elemental's burn is interesting, because it deals damage both when it attacks and when you attack/touch it, explicitly.

Quote:

Burn (Ex) A creature with the burn special attack deals fire damage in addition to damage dealt on a successful hit in melee. Those affected by the burn ability must also succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire, taking the listed damage for an additional 1d4 rounds at the start of its turn (DC 10 + 1/2 burning creature's racial HD + burning creature's Con modifier). A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Creatures that hit a burning creature with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the burning creature and must make a Reflex save to avoid catching on fire.

I would think using Crane Wing means you would still take the burn damage for touching it, by RAW. But you would not take its natural weapon damage from the attack.

[Driver 325 yards]

Funky Badger wrote:

Driver 325 yards wrote:

You are making a judgment call on whether the combo breaks the game and should therefore be nerfed when you state the Crane Wing is strong enough as it is. Okay, fine that is intellectually honest and I can accept that

When you say a miss is missing your AC, you are creating a definition that does not exist in Pathfinder. Now maybe you are suggesting that this is the definition that Pathfinder developer should accept when and if they nerf the combo. If that is the case, then once again, at least you are being intellectually honest.

I don't care if or how they change (if ever) the combo. I interpret it as above - its really a mountain out of a molehill though 1 more or less attacks of opportunity in a round, no big deal.

If it is no big deal then why are you stretching logic from one hemisphere to the next to prevent your PCs from doing something that is clearly RAW. After all, it is a big deal to the PC that made the character with that combination in mind only to come to your table and be denied for no apparent RAW or RAI reason.

Instead, you just event language out of the clear blue sky and say that missing = not meeting the AC requirement.

Again, to clear up what should be readily clear, Crane Style says "you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you.

For the love of Pete, it does not hit you, therefore it misses. My goodness.

[Funky Badger]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

If it is no big deal then why are you stretching logic from one hemisphere to the next to prevent your PCs from doing something that is clearly RAW.

If it was clear, I wouldn't be taking the opposite position, would I? Well, maybe... but not in this case.

[Funky Badger]

So, if it would normally hit you, it's not a miss, right?

[Doomed Hero]

Normally it would hit you, so it wouldn't miss.

But since it's deflected it doesn't hit. So it misses.

[Kazaan]

PRD wrote:

Throw Splash Weapon: ...If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.

PRD wrote:

Snatch Arrows:

Benefit: When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may choose to catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back as an attack against the original attacker (even though it isn't your turn) or kept for later use.
You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat.

PRD wrote:

Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It's the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you.

So... according to this and certain arguments pertaining to "logic", a "Hit" is a solid, damaging blow on the target. If you fail to make a solid, damaging blow, it qualifies as a "miss"; including, but not limited to, pinging off their armor, whiffling against a mirror image, or being deflected by Crane Wing, Deflect/Snatch Arrows, etc. So, if Snatch Arrows, which allows you to "catch" and hold on to a thrown weapon which you've deflected (which qualifies as a miss), is used on a thrown splash weapon, then the thrown splash weapon has "missed". So, you roll to determine direction and then calculate where the thrown splash weapon actually splashed against because it missed... even though it's currently being held by the intended target.

Spoiler:

WHERE'S YOUR GOD NOW!?

[Rynjin]

Chris Kenney wrote:

Personally (And bear in mind that I've been up for 19 hours at this point and this is off the cuff) I would be tempted to rule that a nonsense question and you can't use Crane Wing on touch attacks for precisely that reason - to avoid a touch attack is to avoid being touched, and Crane Wing by strictest definition involves touch.

As long as you make your caster's spells automatically discharge at all times, I'm cool with this interpretation.

Let's see if you can figure out why.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Rynjin wrote:

As long as you make your caster's spells automatically discharge at all times, I'm cool with this interpretation.

Let's see if you can figure out why.

Ha! Great point. :D

[Weirdo]

There are a few cases where this matters other than MoMS. You can also deflect attacks with Deflect Arrows. Can any character with Snake Fang and Deflect Arrows make an attack of opportunity if they deflect the arrow of an opponent within melee range? The Second Chance ranged weapon ability allows you to, once per round, reroll an attack if you miss. Can you reroll an attack if your arrow is deflected using Deflect Arrows?

Personally, my rule of thumb is "when in doubt, let the ability work for the player." More fun that way.

[Dabbler]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

When you say a miss is missing your AC, you are creating a definition that does not exist in Pathfinder.

It most certainly DOES exist in Pathfinder!

CRB page 178 wrote:

An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent on your turn in a round. When you make an attack roll, you roll a d20 and add your attack bonus. (Other modifiers may also apply to this roll.) If your result equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage.

...and that is the only definition in RAW. If an attack is a hit, Snake Fang does not trigger. If it then gets deflected, that's another matter. If it wasn't a hit, then you would have to select the attack to be deflected before the attack roll was made.

Driver 325 yards wrote:

For the love of Pete, it does not hit you, therefore it misses. My goodness.

By the strict rules definition of a hit in Pathfinder, it hit you. My goodness.

I agree it's a mountain out of a molehill, though, and if you want to house-rule it otherwise I really don't give a fig. I'm just pointing out the RAW definition of a "hit."

[Rynjin]

So a miss due to concealment or other forms of miss chance is still a hit?

[Dabbler]

Rynjin wrote:

So a miss due to concealment or other forms of miss chance is still a hit?

Apparently by RAW it still qualifies as a hit before it becomes a miss, yes. There is no definition of "miss" that I have been able to find, though, only a definition of "hit."

So by this RAW if a monk with Snake Fang had a mirror image spell on him, an attack that hit one of the mirror images would likewise not trigger an AoO from Snake Fang.

[Rynjin]

In that case I think this might justify a separate thread with a more general question for FAQing: What constitutes a miss?

[Dabbler]

I agree.

[Driver 325 yards]

Dabbler wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

So a miss due to concealment or other forms of miss chance is still a hit?

Apparently by RAW it still qualifies as a hit before it becomes a miss, yes. There is no definition of "miss" that I have been able to find, though, only a definition of "hit."

So by this RAW if a monk with Snake Fang had a mirror image spell on him, an attack that hit one of the mirror images would likewise not trigger an AoO from Snake Fang.

No, you are wrong. You first apply the language for determining a hit and then you apply the language in feats, abilities, spells and effects that are the exception to the rule.

[Driver 325 yards]

I was working on another build for my website, but given how this thread raised my attention to how much consternation Crane Wing and Snake Fang was cause GMs who just can't accept the plain language no matter how plain it is, I thought I would make a Crane Style / Snake Style build so that all PC reading this thread can take it to their home games.

I personally don't think the build is anything more than a standard optimized build concept, but given the response in this thread, I must be mistaken. So here you go

Quote:

Archetypes Taken: Qinggong Monk, Unarmed Fighter, Monk of Many Styles

Traits: Dangerously Curious, Bullied

Stats: Str (25), Dex (16), Con (14), Int (10), Wis (16), Chr (7); magic bonuses included

MoMS1) Fuse Style, Unarmed Strike (2d6), Stunning Fist, Monks AC Bonus (Wis + 2), Snake Style, Crane Style; MoMS2) Evasion, Crane Wing; MoMS3) Still Mind, Fast Movement (+20), Combat Reflexes; MoMS4) Ki Pool (Magic, 5 points), Barkskin from Qinggong Monk replacing Slow Fall; MoMS5) Feather Step from Qinggong Monk replacing High Jump, Purity of Body, Weapon Focus (Unarmed); MoMS6) Crane Riposte; UF7) Snake Sidewind, Snake Fang; UF8) _____________; UF9) Skill Focus (Sense Motive); UF10) Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike); UF11) Monastic Legacy; UF12) ___________ ;

Monks Robe (13K), Ring of Protection (+2)(8K), Ring of Force Shield (8.6K); 3 Amulets of Mighty Fists Bane (Undead, Monstrous Humanoid, Magical Beast) and a +1 Amulet of Might Fists (20K) – Yes, I know you can’t wear them all at the same time. Chose the one that applies to a given fight; +2 Temple Sword (8K), Bracers of Armor (+4) (16K), +2 Headband of Wisdom (4K), +2 Belt of Strength/Dex/Con (16K); Wands: Enlarge Person (3rd level), Invisibility, Fly, Protection v. Evil (3rd level), and whatever else you think will be useful in your dungeon. Vary the charges on the wands to make the price lower. It is not quantity of charges, it is variety of potential spells to meet the circumstances)

Skills: Acrobatics, Sense Motive and UMD are your main skills

I will put the finalized optimized build on Optibuilds.com under the melee section in a few days.

[Altus Lucrim]

Kazaan wrote:

PRD wrote:

Throw Splash Weapon: ...If you miss the target (whether aiming at a creature or a grid intersection), roll 1d8. This determines the misdirection of the throw, with 1 falling short (off-target in a straight line toward the thrower), and 2 through 8 rotating around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction. Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the range increment of the throw. After you determine where the weapon landed, it deals splash damage to all creatures in that square and in all adjacent squares.

PRD wrote:

Snatch Arrows:

Benefit: When using the Deflect Arrows feat you may choose to catch the weapon instead of just deflecting it. Thrown weapons can immediately be thrown back as an attack against the original attacker (even though it isn't your turn) or kept for later use.
You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat.

PRD wrote:

Your Armor Class (AC) represents how hard it is for opponents to land a solid, damaging blow on you. It's the attack roll result that an opponent needs to achieve to hit you.

So... according to this and certain arguments pertaining to "logic", a "Hit" is a solid, damaging blow on the target. If you fail to make a solid, damaging blow, it qualifies as a "miss"; including, but not limited to, pinging off their armor, whiffling against a mirror image, or being deflected by Crane Wing, Deflect/Snatch Arrows, etc. So, if Snatch Arrows, which allows you to "catch" and hold on to a thrown weapon which you've deflected (which qualifies as a miss), is used on a thrown splash weapon, then the thrown splash weapon has "missed". So, you roll to determine direction and then calculate where the thrown splash weapon actually splashed against because it missed... even though it's currently being held by the intended target. ** spoiler omitted **

But if they did not have Snatch and only had Deflect Arrows would you then roll scatter dice? I contend that any reasonable person would and therefore deflects are misses.

[Lord Foul II]

Kazumetsa wrote:

As much as I would like this combo to work, the wording to me says that it does not. Technically, you have to "get hit" before you can actually deflect the attack. You can't deflect a miss now can you? Snake Fang is speaking...

While I don't know the rules question answer this part is not correct, I take karate, I am a green belt, one of the things that they drill into you are counter attacks, where you first block or dodge a type of hit and well counterattack

One of them starts with you ducking, hitting your opponent's wrist (another one its the same thing but their ankle) and hitting them in the back which you are now able to do because you deflected their attack and opened their guard
Just my 2cp

[Driver 325 yards]

It must just be a ball bringing a character to these guys table to play pathfinder. By the time you get half way through the dungeon you find out that none of your abilities work according to the plain language of the text because well "the GM just does not want them too.'

There are only two kinds of people who would put up with such nonsense. The first is a person who has no other options and just wants to play no matter how unreasonable and argumentative the GM is.

The other, just doesn't know the rules enough to know how unfair their GMs are behaving.

I believe the general rule for interpreting the rules is to read the rules most liberally in the favor of the player unless doing so would break the game. How else do you expect people to come to your table and have fun and be confident that their character will be accepted.

In the case at hand, even a very very conservative reading would net that Crane Wing and Snake Fang work together, and still these GMs will not concede.

[waiph]

Since MoMS can ignore Pre-recs for style feats other than the first feat in the chain

d20pfsrd wrote:

lternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path

look at this feat progression!

Lv1: Dodge
H: Crane Style
M (1):Panther Style
M2 (2):Panther Claw
Lv3: Snake Style
Lv5: Crane Wing
M3 (6): Snake Fang
Lv7: Crane Repost
Lv8: Fuse Style (3 styles)
Lv9: Combat Reflexes for multiple AoO's

So you use provoke an AoO, while fighting defensively* by taking a single attack, then walking away from the enemy with a move action, and the enemy attacks.
You have Crane-wing to deflect the attack, and Crane Wing gives you an AoO to hit him with...

BUT FIRST! you get an AoO via Snake Fang, and a second as an immediate action if you want. and now that the AoO you provoked from walking away has resolved you get your Panther Claw retaliatory strike as a free action.

A Panther Parry/Snake Fang with mobility gives a sweet AC vs AoO's provoked by movement and the added -2 to hit and damage makes it more likely that you get to Panther Parry, cause a miss, and the get 2 Snake Fang strikes, on your way to hit someone else

So punch, deflect, crane AoO, Snake AoO, snake Immediate attack, Panther free attack
You get 5 attacks against a single target ALL at a -1 penalty from fighting defensively (+2 AC) at Level 9. How's that look?

[Driver 325 yards]

Lord Foul II wrote:

Kazumetsa wrote:

As much as I would like this combo to work, the wording to me says that it does not. Technically, you have to "get hit" before you can actually deflect the attack. You can't deflect a miss now can you? Snake Fang is speaking...

While I don't know the rules question answer this part is not correct, I take karate, I am a green belt, one of the things that they drill into you are counter attacks, where you first block or dodge a type of hit and well counterattack

One of them starts with you ducking, hitting your opponent's wrist (another one its the same thing but their ankle) and hitting them in the back which you are now able to do because you deflected their attack and opened their guard
Just my 2cp

See the problem Lord Foul II, is that these guys don't care about common sense, the rules or anything other than the end result. They will argue until the cows come home the most absurd stances because they want the end result to be that the two don't work together.

They poo poo conmon sense, they half read the rules, they make the arguments based in semantics, and most importantly --- they never concede no matter how back into a corner their arguments get. Crane Wing and Snake Fang just will never work at their table because they say so and they don't want it to work at anyone else's table either.

They will never admit it, but they are campaigning for a nerf. They should be making their arguments in the house rules section, but they come to the rules sections because the know everyone considers the house rule section to be for a bunch of over controlling GMs who for some reason don't believe that they already have enough power just being a GM.

[Driver 325 yards]

waiph wrote:

Since MoMS can ignore Pre-recs for style feats other than the first feat in the chain

d20pfsrd wrote:

lternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style’s feat path

look at this feat progression!

Lv1: Dodge
H: Crane Style
M (1):Panther Style
M2 (2):Panther Claw
Lv3: Snake Style
Lv5: Crane Wing
M3 (6): Snake Fang
Lv7: Crane Repost
Lv8: Fuse Style (3 styles)
Lv9: Combat Reflexes for multiple AoO's

So you use provoke an AoO, while fighting defensively* by taking a single attack, then walking away from the enemy with a move action, and the enemy attacks.
You have Crane-wing to deflect the attack, and Crane Wing gives you an AoO to hit him with...

BUT FIRST! you get an AoO via Snake Fang, and a second as an immediate action if you want. and now that the AoO you provoked from walking away has resolved you get your Panther Claw retaliatory strike as a free action.

A Panther Parry/Snake Fang with mobility gives a sweet AC vs AoO's provoked by movement and the added -2 to hit and damage makes it more likely that you get to Panther Parry, cause a miss, and the get 2 Snake Fang strikes, on your way to hit someone else

So punch, deflect, crane AoO, Snake AoO, snake Immediate attack, Panther free attack
You get 5 attacks against a single target ALL at a -1 penalty from fighting defensively (+2 AC) at Level 9. How's that look?

I LIKE VERY MUCH AND MAY POST SUCH A BUILD ON THE SITE

[StreamOfTheSky]

Meh. Get Snake Fang and Crane Wing earlier, Panther can come later and really isn't worth using till you have all 3 feats in the chain because "I move around provoking AoOs from people!" is a pretty suboptimal tactic without the benefits of all the Panther feats.

I don't much like Panther at all; Snake Fang works so long as they at least attack you. Panther fails if they simply realize not to bother AoO'ing you.

I'd rather combine Snake and Crane with Tiger Pounce (skip tiger claw, it sucks) so even if they don't attack you, they at least can't escape you.

[waiph]

SotS i was trying to make the build by 8th, and skipping Combat Reflexes, but then noted that Snake and Repost are AoO's so that don't work.

One thing that's kinda cool too is working up to a Dragon/Snake/Panther

Lv1: Combat Reflexes
H: Panther
M1: Snake Style
M2: Snake Fang
Lv3: Dragon
Lv5: Dragon Ferocity

M3 (6): Panther Claw/Dragon Roar Claw may be a better choice but...Fus...ro DA!
Lv7: Elemental Fist
Lv8: Fuse Styles for 3 styles

Once you hit 8th and are rocking all 3 fused styles, enemies will either let you deliver your ChargeOverEverything for 1d10+2d6[element]+2str+[enhancements] or take 1 to 3 attacks for their trouble trying to stop you.
(Avg. Damage for that charge is 5.5+7+8+AoMF not going there = 20.5)

Personally I don't read Wing and Fang stacking, but It's still great synergy. If you get Full attacked, WIng away the first hit to score, and AoO the boop out of them for every miss VS your huge Defensive AC with snake fang. Add Dragon style to the rep, and you're a legit enough threat to need to try to take out.

[Altus Lucrim]

For the record, I want Crane Riposte ALSO, because clearly 3 attacks are better than 2.

[Lord Foul II]

The only thing I am going to bother to have on opinion on in this debate is that yes this is a very mundane combo,
I made a monk (4 winds) and gave it the feets some of the others got as 1st level feets, and just had fun with it,
But my favorite one I'm running uses a Druid, take improved unarmed strike, cast spell strong jaw on arm, wear amulet of mighty fists (+1 flaming, frost corrosive optional,) take feet improved natural weapon, take prestiuge class master of storms (also known as storm kindler) win the game as an awesome flaming tornado of doom.
This is meh very meh by comparison

[Driver 325 yards]

Lord Foul II wrote:

The only thing I am going to bother to have on opinion on in this debate is that yes this is a very mundane combo,

I made a monk (4 winds) and gave it the feets some of the others got as 1st level feets, and just had fun with it,
But my favorite one I'm running uses a Druid, take improved unarmed strike, cast spell strong jaw on arm, wear amulet of mighty fists (+1 flaming, frost corrosive optional,) take feet improved natural weapon, take prestiuge class master of storms (also known as storm kindler) win the game as an awesome flaming tornado of doom.
This is meh very meh by comparison

Yes sir, now that is optimization. I am working on a build like that as well. Could you post your build here.

[Lord Foul II]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Lord Foul II wrote:

The only thing I am going to bother to have on opinion on in this debate is that yes this is a very mundane combo,

I made a monk (4 winds) and gave it the feets some of the others got as 1st level feets, and just had fun with it,
But my favorite one I'm running uses a Druid, take improved unarmed strike, cast spell strong jaw on arm, wear amulet of mighty fists (+1 flaming, frost corrosive optional,) take feet improved natural weapon, take prestiuge class master of storms (also known as storm kindler) win the game as an awesome flaming tornado of doom.
This is meh very meh by comparison

Yes sir, now that is optimization. I am working on a build like that as well. Could you post your build here.

Not here, I'll PM you if you want.