Tried googling this and was unsuccessful.
My players have decided (hilariously) to split up while searching an underground tunnel. If anyone would like to know, its the tunnel in Rise of the Runelords: Burnt Offerings that lead from the Glassworks to the Catacombs of Wrath.
Group 1 is just entering the Catacombs and group 2 is +/- 520 feet away. Group 1 has met the first Sinspawn and has screamed for help.
In the hopes that group 1 is not wiped out, I am attempting to reduce the DC as much as I can while staying true to the rules.
Here is what I figure so far:
+1/10 feet = base of 52 (520/10)
-5 for very favorable conditions (Underground, echoey tunnels, no other sounds)
-15 for yelling to be heard (it's -10 for battle)
DC 32. Very unlikely group 2 will hear them. I could go -20 for yelling, but not sure if that is in line with the established rules. Funny thing is, the yelling is going to attract everything within the catacombs as they are much closer...
Anyway, if anyone has come across something similar, hopefully in a published format,I would appreciate it.
Thanks.
What level are they?
Because TBH DC 32 Perception is about expected by level 5-6 in my experience. At least that's what I've come to assume from the DC 31 traps as being the norm in Carrion Crown.
I'm not familiar with the campaign setting but if there are other bad guys in the tunnels someone yelling for help should cause quite a stir. Even if your second group doesn't directly hear the first screaming for help you could allow them to hear the enemy shouting to each other and racing off. If you're feeling generous that is :-) Of course that would mean that by the time they get to the panicked PC it should be a rousing great battle.
I would say a -5, but there is no official rule for it.
@Rynjin : They are 5 & 6. With 6 ranks in Percep, it being a class skill and if they have a 18 wisdom, they would still need a 19 to hear it. Not disagreeing with your assessment, just pointing out how unlikely it is to succeed.
@Speaker: Yes there are other baddies and they are definatley going to be showing up in a few rounds. Those baddies are closer and coming from the opposite direction:
Incoming baddies==========Group1=========================Group2
Great fun!
Thanks all!
First off, since this is a rules forum, I would say that you have it about right. I don't think I would change your final numbers even though it looks like you have made up a +5 modifier for very favorable conditions where the book would may just give that a +2.
That said, I'm going to rant a little about the rules and suggest a non-rules-forum answer: I would just make a DM call on it.
Frankly, the whole -1 per 10 feet rule is insipid. It means that a person standing at one goal post of a football field has a -30 to see a person standing at the other goal post. That Perception check is DC 0 so they need to roll a natural 30. This requires 10 ranks in Perception or a WIS of 30 to have any chance to see each other only 5% of the time that they try. The fans in the stadium, especially the ones up in the top rows of the bleachers, cannot even see the field.
It makes a little more sense when you think about sound which doesn't travel as fast or as far as light and gets garbled (muffled) quickly over much shorter distances, but still -1 per 10' is pretty much absurd. Yelling in the grand canyon can be heard over a mile away. A gunshot can be heard for several miles outdoors under the right conditions (remember that each mile in Pathfinder imposes a penalty of -528 on the Perception check).
In the city where I live, it's a valley with have mountains on both sides of it, about 20 miles apart. I can stand on one side and see the mountains on the other. In Pathfinder, I would need 10,550 ranks in Perception to Take-10 on this roll to see those mountains. Alternatively, I could just have a Wisdom of 20,140. Yeah, that's it, that's my Wisdom score. I'm not even going to do the math on what kind of Perception check it takes to see the sun, but the DC is up into the billions.
I might consider the distance rule useful for a person trying to hear whispering, footsteps, or quiet talking. After that, I just wing it.
@ DM Blake:
I would rule that seeing a MOUNTAIN was quite an effective penalty on your perception DC.
However, seeing what colour the thrid stripe on the mountaineers sock is, DC 1000+ sounds about right.
@ OP:
I would let them roll against your DC, and then look at the difference. Failed by <5: Something is off, roll again to determine.
Failed by <10 (and assuming to continue screaming): They hear them after 2d6 rounds
Failed by >10: 3d6 rounds.
Failed by >15: 4d6 rounds.
Etc.
Maybe even let the characters go "ssshhhh" and give em a +2 circumstance bonus is everyone stops talking for one minute (outgame :p).
@ DM Blake:
I would rule that seeing a MOUNTAIN was quite an effective penalty on your perception DC.However, seeing what colour the thrid stripe on the mountaineers sock is, DC 1000+ sounds about right.
I assume you mean that a mountain would have a much lower DC than a person. I would agree. If we go by size categories, a Colossal creature (like me!) would be DC -8, though that's a houserule using size penalties for AC and applying them to perception DCs. Still smaller than a mountain, but 2x Colossal would be -16, 4x Colossal would be -32, 6x Colossal would be -64. We might already be getting near mountain sized, or at least certainly hill sized, and even at a -64 DC, applying the penalty of -132 to see it just a quarter of a mile away still makes it impossible. To see a hill. 1/4 of a mile away.
My football stadium example doesn't even require any assumptions. Those are human sized people down there in good lighting (at least during the game). DC 0 to see them. Fans just 100 yards away, up in the bleachers, need to have at least a +10 in Perception to barely have a chance to see the game. You average commoner has about a +2 or +3, so common folk cannot even watch sporting events in the stadium.
@ OP:
I would let them roll against your DC, and then look at the difference. Failed by <5: Something is off, roll again to determine.
Failed by <10 (and assuming to continue screaming): They hear them after 2d6 rounds
Failed by >10: 3d6 rounds.
Failed by >15: 4d6 rounds.
Etc.Maybe even let the characters go "ssshhhh" and give em a +2 circumstance bonus is everyone stops talking for one minute (outgame :p).
After 2d6 rounds they would probably be dead, especially counting additional rounds to get to them (if it's a perfectly smooth, flat cave with a paved asphalt road it would take typical characters 5 rounds to be in range to help their buddies and even that may be too late if they hear them right away, but tacking on 2d6 extra rounds is just extra nails in their coffin). And it doesn't really reflect the rules much.
I do like your idea about having everyone metagame a minute of silence for a bonus but he did already give favorable conditions at 2.5x the listed benefit, more bonus is just, well, trying too hard. No matter how fun the idea is.
TL;dr:
Frankly, if you're going to try that hard to let them succeed, just say "The echoing caves carry the distant sound of your companions screaming for your help!" and be done with it. In other words, if you want a success, don't leave it up to a nearly impossible roll, with or without bonuses.
Or, have them make the rolls EXACTLY by the rules and let them live or die by the consequences - either way, it might teach them a valuable lesson about splitting up the party in a dangerous area, even if this lesson can only be appreciated by their next characters.
Interestingly, the 3.5 Spot rules stated that the skill was primarily used to see creatures who were actively hiding, or otherwise difficult to see. So if they were in the open on the other side of a football field, the distance penalties and such wouldn't come into play at all.
Perception does have kind-of-similar language, in that it says it's used to notice fine details in the environment. I'd say a mountain would be somewhat more than a fine detail :)
As an update to last nights game:
The group that wandered off lost interest in the dead end they found. After walking back about 30 feet and one person rolling a nat 20, they heard their companions yelling. The ranger cast Longstrider, the Alchemist downed a potion of Expeditious Retreat and the rogue just ran like hell. The 3 arrived to rescue their 2 friends from an onslaught of four enemies, turning the tide of battle in the heroes favor.
I thank you all for your advice and insight.
As an update to last nights game:
The group that wandered off lost interest in the dead end they found. After walking back about 30 feet and one person rolling a nat 20, they heard their companions yelling. The ranger cast Longstrider, the Alchemist downed a potion of Expeditious Retreat and the rogue just ran like hell. The 3 arrived to rescue their 2 friends from an onslaught of four enemies, turning the tide of battle in the heroes favor.I thank you all for your advice and insight.
Natural 20s are not automatic successes on skill checks. I'm not saying that you said they were, but your post seems to nod in that direction.
Natural 20s are not automatic successes on skill checks. I'm not saying that you said they were, but your post seems to nod in that direction.As an update to last nights game:
The group that wandered off lost interest in the dead end they found. After walking back about 30 feet and one person rolling a nat 20, they heard their companions yelling. The ranger cast Longstrider, the Alchemist downed a potion of Expeditious Retreat and the rogue just ran like hell. The 3 arrived to rescue their 2 friends from an onslaught of four enemies, turning the tide of battle in the heroes favor.I thank you all for your advice and insight.
Let me clarify: The DC was a 32. The best perception bonus in group 2 was +12. That player rolled a natural 20, and made the DC of 32.