Well, one philosophical rift between myself and the Magisterium has been closed.
EDIT: I'm raised Catholic, distanced myself a little from the dneomination but never left Christianity (I prefered to come to my own conclusions about scripture and what it means for my life). This is something I've long personally felt was true and this is nice to hear.
I can expect a s%%&storm of controversy starting from this...
I can expect a s&#+storm of controversy starting from this...
I'd imagine everyone other than very conservative Catholics would be happy about this. Those that are... well, the by-the-book Catholicism is supposed to take the Magisterium as seriously as the actual scripture, so either they accept this, or they stop being Catholic?
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At least that settles Pascal's wager.
I can expect a s&#+storm of controversy starting from this...I'd imagine everyone other than very conservative Catholics would be happy about this. Those that are... well, the by-the-book Catholicism is supposed to take the Magisterium as seriously as the actual scripture, so either they accept this, or they stop being Catholic?
In reality Catholics are nowhere near as monolithic a religion as they're cracked up to be.
Well, one philosophical rift between myself and the Magisterium has been closed.
EDIT: I'm raised Catholic, distanced myself a little from the dneomination but never left Christianity (I prefered to come to my own conclusions about scripture and what it means for my life). This is something I've long personally felt was true and this is nice to hear.
WOOOOOOW.... this is huge.
In reality Catholics are nowhere near as monolithic a religion as they're cracked up to be.I can expect a s&#+storm of controversy starting from this...I'd imagine everyone other than very conservative Catholics would be happy about this. Those that are... well, the by-the-book Catholicism is supposed to take the Magisterium as seriously as the actual scripture, so either they accept this, or they stop being Catholic?
That could be a good thing ... depending on how well internal descent is handled.
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great, great news. I don't know enough of the history of the Vetican to understand if this is something new or not, but anyway it's good to see somone sensible at the top there, instead of that psycho encouraging the people of Africa not to use condoms. Quite the difference.
Also, without knowing much of christian lore, I heard that the current Pope chose a name of a holy man known for his kindness and caring for the society. All these things make me really optimistic.
A couple of thoughts:
1) It always amuses me to no end that just about anyone can use any holy book to justify just about anything. Just as up to this point christians from the vettican believed you have to be a Christian to be saved (most likely having a bunch of qoutes from their holy books supporting thier claims) they are now going to believe otherwise because The Pope Said So. Kinda makes me wander how anyone can seriously believe they are following the will of a god when they perform their rituals and live thier lives according to the book, when the books' interpretation is always changing to fit the time they live in. If you can change your interpretation of the book, that means you can (and most certainly will, at least about some of it), *mis*intepret it. Not trolling here, just saying that Iv'e seen so many religeous arguments where two dudes will each use the holy book to justify an opinion competley opposite to that of the other, who also uses the same text, that Iv'e started to wonder how is this taken seriously?
2) With the Pope making such a great effort to make the Vettican relevent to as many people as he can, are we now allowed to use the phrase "pope-culture"?
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Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
Will they apologise for all the good people they killed because they didn't believe in the catholic faith?
Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
Will they apologise for all the good people they killed because they didn't believe in the catholic faith?
Hopefully, this is a preparation for that. :)
Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
Will they apologise for all the good people they killed because they didn't believe in the catholic faith?
Hopefully, this is a preparation for that. :)
That would be nice, it won't bring them back or restore the native cultures they destroyed but it is positive.
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That would be nice, it won't bring them back or restore the native cultures they destroyed but it is positive.Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
Will they apologise for all the good people they killed because they didn't believe in the catholic faith?
Hopefully, this is a preparation for that. :)
Does the current generation bear the guilt of all those crimes, or just what they have actually done/are doing?
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Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
You mean retroactive?
Dammit.. now what do i do for an excuse?
Dammit.. now what do i do for an excuse?
What do you mean?
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You mean retroactive?Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
I'm an Austalian English is my second language ;-b
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For atheists and anti-theists this changes nothing. Thanks for the peace out, Pope Francis. How about something really relevant like acknowledging women in the clergy, allowing condoms or even gay marriage?
What you pathetic mortals do not realise is that most of you will be spending eternity in the infernal flames of Teddy Hell. I have a nice burning place of punishment for all of you!
Dammit.. now what do i do for an excuse?What do you mean?
I mean my excuse for not doing any good. I mean before i was condemned to hell either way...
I mean my excuse for not doing any good. I mean before i was condemned to hell either way...Dammit.. now what do i do for an excuse?What do you mean?
That may have been the Pope's intent.
I don't want to be "saved" by a tiran.
Rather spend my afterlife as Incubus, corrupting the church even further.
And most people are selfish, arrogant and evil bastards, so "heaven" won't be so fun or full anywayz :-D
If he does exist (which is very unlikely to me) I do hope he punishes all those (mostly Japanese) people that fish away all fish and whales from the ocean and kill off almost extinct animals, I know I would punish such human-creatures if I was God, and of course all soccer-hooligans, rich people that take more than 2 cars, a private plane and 1 house and leave poor people to rot, all male people who think women are below them, people who make other peoples lives on school a hell, gay-haters or people that just don't seem to know to leave others alone and play the role of a "god", not to forget about the masterminds and corruptor of the young souls, the most important people behind MTV.
Punish them all! No forgiveness or saving from my book.
I agree with that, but I'd also punish women who treat men like vermin.
You know, just to be fair and punish all sinners equally instead of being biased.
I think its insane atheist people (or other people that don't want to be called atheist but are still non believers) need to wait for a Pope to say something before they got "accepted" by their OWN freaking family...
If my family would be like that I would be the one that never forgives them for being such short-minded sheep of the Pope.
I also agree with you Icyshadow, but of course I couldn't put on ALL things that SHOULD be punished in there, murderers (that don't kill out of self defense) and rapists are among many things still missing from that list.
Does the current generation bear the guilt of all those crimes, or just what they have actually done/are doing?That would be nice, it won't bring them back or restore the native cultures they destroyed but it is positive.Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
Will they apologise for all the good people they killed because they didn't believe in the catholic faith?
Hopefully, this is a preparation for that. :)
The people don't but the institution does, if you are part of an institution that has done the wrong thing, then it is important that you as a member work to get that institution to make amends, and redress its wrongs.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Interesting,
One of the splits between Martin Luther and the Catholics of the day was over faith vs. deeds. In a quick read, this seems to recant some of the church's statements.
OTOH, the Talmud says "The Righteous, of any faith, shall be saved in the world to come." So maybe he's just catching up.
I'll be interested to see what develops.
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Ummm No. He didn't say that. He said atheist can be good not that they are saved. Salvation comes from grace not works. Being good has nothing to do with being saved. Doing good my be a fruit of being saved and atheist may go to heaven, but an atheist who does good or is good does not necessarily go to heaven.
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Ummm No. He didn't say that. He said atheist can be good not that they are saved. Salvation comes from grace not works. Being good has nothing to do with being saved. Doing good my be a fruit of being saved and atheist may go to heaven, but an atheist who does good or is good does not necessarily go to heaven."The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! "Father, the atheists?" Even the atheists. Everyone!"I'm not sure how else to take that. But then you seem to agree, when you say that "atheist may go to heaven".
It definitely seems a change to Church theology that has long required faith and often the intermediary of the Church itself.
And the schism over doctrine starts now!!!
The new pope seems like a pretty cool dude from what I've read about him. Not that i care. Catholicism is highly marginal in my country, here we have to contend with greedy, arrogant orthodox priests. And they seem to get dumber by the day.
And how exactly does that differ from Catholicism?
Ummm thanks.... Is it retrospective?
Will they apologise for all the good people they killed because they didn't believe in the catholic faith?
There has been a lot of that before and continues to be. Unfortunately there's not much that can be done to make up for actions that old- corrupt popes and officials have done to people long dead except not doing it. The same goes for the US and the descendants of slaves.
On the topic ar hand, yeah fundamentalists who believe that people who believe are saved for that alone won't agree with this. IMO they're wrong about that, but the one discussion I had with one didn't go anywhere the first time, I don't expect another one to.
The new pope seems like a pretty cool dude from what I've read about him. Not that i care. Catholicism is highly marginal in my country, here we have to contend with greedy, arrogant orthodox priests. And they seem to get dumber by the day.And how exactly does that differ from Catholicism?
Believe it or not, the Orthodox is even more firmly rooted in tradition (they formed around the same time the Catholic church did, because the CAtholic church wanted to run things very differently than how people had been worshipping before. Bear in mind this is all hundreds and hundreds of years ago.
So, the pope is God? He can declare such things?
Interesting.
And how exactly does that differ from Catholicism?
No Immaculate Conception, if my theology lessons haven't gotten too garbled. And, originally, a number of Patriarchs instead of a single Pope -- and currently, all bishops are equally-ranked; if you want a higher authority, you go to a council of bishops, I think.
I'm not Orthodox, so I may have gotten some of this stuff wrong -- I just visit a lot of churches. And I really enjoyed my trip to the Balkans a few years back.
Next time I should mark snark in some more visible way... I was referring to priests' greed and arrogance, not differences in theology.
I had learned about great schism as a part of History lessons back in high school. I don't recall theological details well because we were focusing more on political facts, ok, I forgot lots of that as well.
The primary reason for split was conflict about Rome's primacy in the Church and the dispute over source of the Holy Spirit (initial Nicean Creed and Orthodox: from Father; Western Catholic changed that to: from Father and Son). Differences in rites and other parts of theology were secondary. Some of the differences developed due to the schism instead of being the reason for it.
Well, one philosophical rift between myself and the Magisterium has been closed.
EDIT: I'm raised Catholic, distanced myself a little from the dneomination but never left Christianity (I prefered to come to my own conclusions about scripture and what it means for my life). This is something I've long personally felt was true and this is nice to hear.
I'm Catholic, and the postulate of Pope Francis has always been a fundamental pillar of my particular understanting of Christianity.
Interestingly, a lot of people, both Catholics and non-Catholics, tend to ignore that Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was also a big proponent on the same matter. From his writings in Dominus Iesus:
"Nevertheless, God, who desires to call all peoples to himself in Christ and to communicate to them the fullness of his revelation and love, "does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals, but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the main and essential expression even when they contain ‘gaps, insufficiencies and errors'". Therefore, the sacred books of other religions, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, receive from the mystery of Christ the elements of goodness and grace which they contain."
"Theology today, in its reflection on the existence of other religious experiences and on their meaning in God's salvific plan, is invited to explore if and in what way the historical figures and positive elements of these religions may fall within the divine plan of salvation. In this undertaking, theological research has a vast field of work under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium. The Second Vatican Council, in fact, has stated that: "the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude, but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a participation in this one source"."
"With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it "in ways known to himself"."
This theological discourse stems from what is called "Anonymous Christianity", a concept that has existed, as Pope Francis indicates, since the very origin of Christianity and it is based on Christ's own teachings. It was structured as a theological current by Karl Rahner in the XX century, and it is often seen as one of the moving forces behind the Twenty-First Ecumenical Council of Vatican II. Both Pope John XXIII and Pope Paul VI (respectively, inaugurator and closer of the XXI Council) have been mentioned to be supporters of Anonymous Christianity.
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I guess us gays are still in line for Hell, no matter how much good we do. Oh, well.
In other news pope declares there will in fact be a Feb 30th, and it shall be known as "Super Mayonaise Day".
Film at 11.
They'll get ya'll with the next pope Cannon Fodder.
I guess us gays are still in line for Hell, no matter how much good we do. Oh, well.
One hurdle at a time, my friend. If it's any consolation many other churches disagree with this.
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My Facebook comment on this story:
"Though im happy to see the chruch show any signs if progressive thinking, as a gay atheist I don't really care what the pope says. Telling me I'm going to hell is like me telling a Christian they're going to Mordor. "
You are all Popes!
That's pretty cool.
I've been carrying this one around for nigh on a decade, you know, just in case.
But it looks like I don't need it anymore, because I am, of course, LG.