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I was wondering if Armors like Celestial Armor or Rhino Hide could be further enchanted? Add more enhancement bonus or add extra abilities?
I believe this has been discussed before and if I remember correctly the answer was no by RAW. I could not link the rules to it though.
There's nothing in RAW that says you cannot add onto Specific Armor or Weapons.
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Well hmmm.... there is >THIS<... thought it's pretty ambiguous. Unless there is something in the rules stating otherwise, it should be safe to assume that it IS okay. The hard part is, for specific weapons and armor, deciding which abilities should be considered as "+1, +2, +3" etc vs fixed price (transformative, dueling, etc).
Lets try on an example:
Aura faint abjuration; CL 5th; Slot none; Price 5,940 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
1. Whispering Shrike is a +1 wakizashi of incredibly beautiful design.
2. Once per day, Whispering Shrike can be used to cast shield other on any creature touched by the blade while you wield it.
3. The blade’s tsuka (hilt) has not weathered the passage of time as well as the blade itself, and until the pommel is repaired (a process requiring 600 gp, a day’s work, and a DC 20 Craft [weapons] check), attacks with the weapon take a –2 penalty due to the loose grip. A DC 20 Perception check (an automatic success once repair is underway) reveals a secret compartment in the hilt just large enough to hold a small item such as a flask or rolled piece of paper.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield other; Cost 3,140 gp
This item is a +1 wakizashi with two additional abilities:
1. Cast shield other once per day
2. You may store a flask or other item inside of it
Lets do a price breakdown:
- Whispering Shrike Price: 5,940gp
- +1 Wakizashi Price: 2,335gp
- +2 Wakizashi Price: 8,335gp
- Difference between Whispering Shrike and +1 Wakizashi: 3,605gp
- Difference between +2 and +1 Wakizashi: 6,000gp
Conclusions:
1. Whispering Shrike is not considered to be a +2 Weapon
2. The "Shield Other" and "Hollow Pommel" features have a fixed cost
3. If you want to upgrade Whispering Shrike to a +2 weapon, pay an additional 6,000gp, or use crafting and pay an additional 3,000gp.
This exercise could be done with the Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate
Hmm I guess but not so sure since for example Celestial Armor gives a Max Dex bonus of +8 which I found like impossible to have since its suppose to be a Chainmail and even if you make a Chainmail of Mithral you still never reach a +8 Dex bonus.
Yes they can. UCamp will go into this further.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2opr7&page=14?Magic-Item-Crafting-any-unres olved-questions#656
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Hmm I guess but not so sure since for example Celestial Armor gives a Max Dex bonus of +8 which I found like impossible to have since its suppose to be a Chainmail and even if you make a Chainmail of Mithral you still never reach a +8 Dex bonus.
Well what you need to do here is do a comparative analysis of Celestial Armor and Celestial Plate and see which characteristics are impossible to obtain through alternative materials, and then see if there is continuity between the two armors. Once you've isolated what those "impossible" factors are, then you turn those things into either a "fixed cost" upgrade or a "+1, +2 etc..." upgrade.
Unsolved mysteries ^^; Like the Rhino Hide which is not a material nor an ability you could place on any armor.
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Unsolved mysteries ^^; Like the Rhino Hide which is not a material nor an ability you could place on any armor.
Easy
Rhino Hide: +2 Hide Armor with Rhino abilities
Cost: 5,165gp
+2 Hide Armor
Cost: 4,165gp
Difference: 5,165 - 4,165 = 1,000gp
That 1,000 gold pays for the additional "Rhino" abilities that the armor gives you.
This is a
+2 Hide Armor with a 1,000gp flat cost "Rhino" ability added to it.
Someone convince him so he lets me enchant my Celestial armor, PLEASE. Like Doggan said, there is nothing in RAW that says you cannot add onto Specific Armor or Weapons.
I was under the impression that the link abadar posted was proof enough. I'll post the text from his link though so there won't be any question:
Adding New AbilitiesSometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
If this is for PFS then disregard this, because the entire Magic Item Creation section is not legal for PFS.
Someone convince him so he lets me enchant my Celestial armor, PLEASE. Like Doggan said, there is nothing in RAW that says you cannot add onto Specific Armor or Weapons.
Actually what RAW says is, custom items are completely at the GMs discretion. Adding abilities to an existing magical item is creating a custom item and is not allowed in PFS at all for what it is worth.
RAW custom items aren't even allowed in game unless your GM decides they want to include them. The rulebook then provides various guidelines for pricing IF the GM wants to allow them.
There is nothing that prevents specific armors from being enchanted further, other than GM fiat*. It is also very much up to the GM how much it costs to further improve the armor. Some of the price calculations are very complex, and potentially subject to opinion.
For instance, Mithral Full Plate of Speed costs 26500. 10500 of that is Mithral Full Plate, so the magic costs are 16000. That's the same as a suit of +4 armor, so the "of Speed" quality could be considered a +3 ability. That would make a +2 MFPoS cost 35500.
Alternatively, the "of Speed" could be a +15000gp cost on top of the +1 armor enhancement. That would make +2 MFPoS only 29500.
*: see Skylancer4's phrasing of this. It's up to the GM, as any custom item is.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item.
Mithral full plate of speed: Price 26,500 gp
Adding +1 to armor: 1,000 gp
Mithral Full Plate of speed +1: 27,500
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item.
Mithral full plate of speed: Price 26,500 gp
Adding +1 to armor: 1,000 gp
Mithral Full Plate of speed +1: 27,500
While the method is correct, your numbers aren't. A suit of mithral full plate of speed is already a +1 armor. You can't just add another +1 to that for 1,000gp. The cost to further enchant it to +2 varies, as Majuba pointed out above, depending on how the Speed part is priced (a flat 15,000gp, or a +3 enhancement).
Edit: Removed cost comparison, as Majuba already has it above.
And thats why further enchanting specific armor and weapons is hard - you have no idea just how their custom enchantments are priced.
Sorry, you're right. What I get for posting quickly.
Since it is defined as having a +1, and the price given for the other abilities is not provided. You merely subtract the difference of a +2 from the +1 already present. It isn't losing the other abilities, and they are already paid for. So +1 is 1,000, and +2 is 4,000. Difference is pay 3,000 to upgrade it to a +2.
Sorry, you're right. What I get for posting quickly.
Since it is defined as having a +1, and the price given for the other abilities is not provided. You merely subtract the difference of a +2 from the +1 already present. It isn't losing the other abilities, and they are already paid for. So +1 is 1,000, and +2 is 4,000. Difference is pay 3,000 to upgrade it to a +2.
That is working under the assumption everything is balanced and equal, which isn't always the case. Some abilities and spells are much more effective given the guidelines listed, that's when we get people posting about continuous true strike rings and the like. Not all specific armor or weapon abilities are going to be equal in every possible combination so it is up to the GM to determine the actual cost of the custom item in such a situation.
You're still dealing with custom items, with abilities having no listed pricing, which is still up to the GM, RAW
That is working under the assumption everything is balanced and equal, which isn't always the case. Some abilities and spells are much more effective given the guidelines listed, that's when we get people posting about continuous true strike rings and the like. Not all specific armor or weapon abilities are going to be equal in every possible combination so it is up to the GM to determine the actual cost of the custom item in such a situation.You're still dealing with custom items, with abilities having no listed pricing, which is still up to the GM, RAW
Fair enough. RAW allows for the enhancing of a magic item with additional magical effects. Pricing and abilities able to be added subject to GM discretion as with all custom items.