It is a trap. I rarely allow take 10/20 on any skill and definitely not on traps. Roll the durn dice and take yer chances or have the dm roll it fer ya!
It is a trap. I rarely allow take 10/20 on any skill and definitely not on traps. Roll the durn dice and take yer chances or have the dm roll it fer ya!
Is there a particular reason? Blank statements like "Deal with it" don't add much. "Deal with it because..." and then stating reasons add to the discussion however.
It could be that your GM wants the "classic" trap experience, where people find and defeat traps with cleverness instead of Perception+Disable Device checks.The Philistine.
Nothing says "role playing" like devising challenges for the players to overcome, instead of the highly skilled (and often more intelligent) characters that they're pretending to be.
I wouldn't have an issue playing by those rules. I would even play a rogue. I go by the same rule when I GM and it has never caused an issue.How does it work? Do you ban retrying any skill? If not, can't you just roll 20 times?
I can see banning Take 10. I don't agree or like it, but I can see how it works. I can't see banning Take 20.
When I'm playing the rogue and I roll low, I assume there's not a trap and proceed. My players do the same thing.
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Nothing says "role playing" like devising challenges for the players to overcome, instead of the highly skilled (and often more intelligent) characters that they're pretending to be.It could be that your GM wants the "classic" trap experience, where people find and defeat traps with cleverness instead of Perception+Disable Device checks.The Philistine.
And nothing says "fun" like the riddle:
Riddle, DC 25
"What's the riddle, Mr. Fun GM?"
"ROLL THE DICE!!!"
Or the trap:
Trap, Perception DC 25, Disable Device DC 30, 1d6 damage
"What kind of trap just hit me? Can we salvage any components?"
"It's only components were two DCs and an effect"
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Because obviously it's all one or the other.
I'm beginning to think that the people that claim if you roll any dice you're not doinitrite just don't have the cognitive ability to do math, roll some dice, and roleplay at the same time.
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Of course, what you're advocating is a purely ROLLplaying game.Then why have skills? Why are you then playing a ROLE playing game as then your PC is exactly as clever and experienced as you are, no matter his exps, abilities or skills?
It could be that your GM wants the "classic" trap experience, where people find and defeat traps with cleverness instead of Perception+Disable Device checks.
Nope. Clever players can & should get assigned a circumstance bonus, or could avoid having to roll at all. But, a player who is not clever needs to be able to play a clever PC. Just like we don't make players do 100 pushups in order to do a successful STR check- a "90# weakling" can play Grund the str 22 Bbn if he likes.
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If a trap has a Perception DC, then you can detect it with a perception roll. If your GM doesn't want you to "take 10", or arbitrarily decides that's going to take 10 minutes, then you have a simple choice.
If that's how you are happy to play, go along with his house rule (but be aware that is what it is; by RAW, "take 10" takes as long as one perception roll - a move action - and "take 20" takes one minute). If it isn't, then just roll 10 times (or 20 times), or ask the GM to make those rolls for you; there's no negative consequence to failing to detect a trap.
A "DC 25 to detect, DC 30 to disarm" trap isn't there for a thrilling role-playing opportunity; it's a tool for the GM to encourage players to adventure in a well-rounded party.
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When I'm playing the rogue and I roll low, I assume there's not a trap and proceed. My players do the same thing.
So, you're on the 9th door in a dungeon. #'s 1-8 have all been trapped. #9 appears similar. Why wouldn't a PC go- hmm, let me look extra careful on this door? OK, I suppose if the rogue is playing really low INT &WIS PC, then sure.
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To throw your own words back at you, "Because obviously it's all one or the other."
I never said that you should never roll dice. But when you rule out creativity in favor of a random number generator, you're losing the thing that actually makes the game fun. I want to play Dungeons & Dragons, not Spreadsheets & Databases & Optimization Drills.
And before you imply that I'm too stupid to do basic mathematics, you should know I have a degree in it.
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Nobody said rule out creativity except you. Someone asked what the point of having skills like DD and Perception was if they weren't able to be used, in response to a post saying "Maybe he wants a classic experience where traps are bypassed with player cleverness rather than skills".
You then jumped up with your "Hurr durr rollplay is bad mmkay" spiel from there, and have kept on trucking with that same nonsense since then.
It just kinda goes *poof*.
It "dies" but there's no corpse.
Kthulhu, if you wish to play a game where dice are not a factor or less of a factor then I suggest some other game system.
Back in 2nd edition people wanted more skill type stuff to represent what their characters knew even if the players didn't. 3.0 accommodated that by creating the skill system.
Now, you do not have to know how to do things, your character does and this is represented by a check.
Does this reduce the element where you, the player, can come up with interesting strategies for finding a trap? Yes.
Does it eliminate it? No. You can gain bonuses by coming up with interesting ideas.
With all of that said, take 10 is simply an average roll, it is taking the dice out of it because you are not rushed and are able to focus on the task at hand. Take 20 is a thorough inspection. Why are these a problem?
In any case, the problem with traps is not the skills. It is not Take 10 or Take 20. It is how traps are built in PF and how easy it is to get a very high perception bonus. Personally, I think that the Eyes of the Eagle are far too cheap for what they do.
- Gauss
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I don't see why the genius PC has no way to think beyond the player.
I am no genius.
People want their trained heroes to be able to be good at the things they are supposed to be good at.
If the DM is constantly trying to prove that the PCs are actually sucky normals who fail at everything 5% of the time, it kind of sucks the fun out for some.
Some like the constant failing.
It's not for everyone though.
If the houserules are only pleasing the DM, and irritating the players, then there is something wrong.
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So our new DM turns out to love traps, and has a house rule where taking 10 on any skill check takes 10 minutes, taking 20 takes 20 minutes and results are rolled 1, 2, 3, 4...in that order.
His reason being that traps either get auto-detected with take 10, or are never detected because their DC is too high.
Any suggestions for talking the DM out of this one?
The answer IMO is simple : set the DC for Perception higher than the DC to Disable. I would put a +10 to account for the discrepancy between the "take 20 on Perception" and the "roll the dice on Disable" (and recalculate the CR accordingly following the rules in the CRB).
I think it would be far truer to what traps are supposed to be : difficult to detect but not necessarily difficult to bypass once they are detected. Otherwise, it is rather a deterrent (obviously dangerous so that people do not attempt to interact with it) than a trap per se (hidden so that people get caught).
How does he handle abilities that allow you to take 10, even during combat?
Not many combats last ten minutes.
Taking 10 is a choice.
Not everyone will make that choice.
In fact, those with low modifiers are better off not doing so.
How do the other players feel about these houserules?
I don't think you understand the "take 10" rules. Take 10 takes the ordinary amount of time a normal check would take.
The OP's GM house rules Take 10 to take 10 minutes. Because he hates take 10/20 apparently.
It's not clear how abilities that allow you to Take 10 in combat would work with that. Probably just "Can't do it"
Sounds like the GM is a dick.
Simple solution, then. Any time the GM calls for a perception check, take 20. As in, tell him to roll, tell him to roll again,.... and one you've rolled twenty times, take the best number.
Do this three or four times and he'll understand what the rules are and why they are there. Do it all evening and he'll change the house rules.
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Given take 10/take 20 have built in limitations, his houseruling the length of time they take really does nothing but frustrate players AND creates more work for him, because he's got to determine what's going on in those 10-20 minutes, etc. It also means, presuming he is a fair GM, that all his NPCs need to take this time to do such things. Take 10/20 is meant to be not just a convenience for players, it is also a convenience for GMs.
If he doesn't like taking 10 or 20 on searching for traps SPECIFICALLY, it would be more reasonable for him to houserule that you cannot take 10 or 20 to search for traps. The in-the-rules backing for this houserule would that he considers being near a trap significantly dangerous enough to qualify for "being faced with danger, threats, or distractions" and thus taking 10 or 20 would not qualify.
Otherwise I think he would serve himself better by leaving the take 10/20 rules as written--making sure he's read them, as their limitations are pretty clear and I wonder if he's aware of them--for his own convenience.
Also, a character who prioritizes Perception, especially if they've got high Wis and Keen Senses or similar--or in fact, the class bonuses from Trapfinding--will, as they level, become likely detect most appropriate CR traps even just making a normal die roll. In a high level game I ran (I don't know how high he plans to go), the party rogue could pretty much auto-detect any trap using its as-written detect DC, using a plain old die roll. So ultimately, if someone sets out to be amazing at finding traps, he's not going to be able to stop them even with house rules.
If he truly likes trap design, there are ways he can be clever with them without worrying about auto detection. Like, say you auto detect a trap with take 10/20. Fine. But then, you note the trigger is moving anywhere within the vicinity of a sensor implanted in the ceiling. The challenge becomes not just can you make the Disable Device check, but how do you get to the ceiling or otherwise get to the trigger to disarm it? If he's good at traps and enjoys them, he should be creative and clever enough to make them fun and exciting even if they can be auto detected. He could also even design some "Fake traps" to make the party think there's a trap they have to bypass even if it does nothing, making them delay their actions and give the bad guys time to prep an ambush or whatever.
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Excessive use of traps is a huge timesink that takes away from the fun of achieving actual goals. If you are tired of every single thing being trapped, I would recommend rolling Perception until you get a 20, in every square, until your DM is so completely sick of you being careful that he relents in his desire to catch you off guard. Or just blunder right into the traps to give him the satisfaction of winning. Really.
"Oh gee, that scythe crit really hurt. I guess I need to be more careful"
"I search"
"I search again"
"I don't trust my senses. I search again."
"I search again"
"I search again"
"I search again"
.
.
.
"Satisfied, I move 5' up the hallway"
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Sounds like the GM is a dick.
Simple solution, then. Any time the GM calls for a perception check, take 20. As in, tell him to roll, tell him to roll again,.... and one you've rolled twenty times, take the best number.
Do this three or four times and he'll understand what the rules are and why they are there. Do it all evening and he'll change the house rules.
As I don't know the GM personally, I couldn't really make that judgement about him. At best, one can say he doesn't like a rule or doesn't understand it, which is not a sin, but doesn't know how to "fix it" in a more mechanically sound way which would fit with his preference and that of his players.
Your suggested solution is akin to a child throwing a tantrum, and no more mature than the GM's alleged unwillingness to budge. More likely, it will make him less willing to discuss future house rules and only make the whole situation worse.
To the OP: You have options.
You can discuss it as an adult, perhaps with the support of the other players. Failing this, you can:
1. You can cope (as suggested by others).
2. You can find another gaming group (again, previously suggested).
3. You can act like a child and follow several of the "tantrum-style" options offered by some of the previous posters.
The consequences (which may or may not be a problem for you) of #3 include, but are not limited to:
1. Being removed from the gaming group and not invited back (either by the GM or the other players collectively).
2. Potentially losing a friend (or friends, depending on the social dynamic of your group).
3. Making things more difficult and awkward with everyone while gaining absolutely nothing.
There are others, of course, but they depend on how your group formed and the social relationships involved.
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This whole thread is a trap and I failed my save.
So, you're on the 9th door in a dungeon. #'s 1-8 have all been trapped. #9 appears similar. Why wouldn't a PC go- hmm, let me look extra careful on this door? OK, I suppose if the rogue is playing really low INT &WIS PC, then sure.When I'm playing the rogue and I roll low, I assume there's not a trap and proceed. My players do the same thing.
Never played where that many doors have been trapped in a row and never failed that many times in a row. Sounds good to say, just fails in practice.
Well, it might happen in the Tomb of Horrors...
I kid, I kid. The Tomb of Horrors wouldn't take that long to kill you.
Also, Perception checks wouldn't save you. ;)
Bah I've faced worse traps than tomb of horrors :P
Entrance to the boss battle. Ok the door isn't trapped Rogue rolled a 19 and has a +14 at level 5.
Kick open the door. Charge in. Reflex saves. The trap was 2 steps into the room not on the door, so we couldn't look for it without starting the boss battle at the same time. 3 Caster level 10 empowered fireball traps :P 45d6 Reflex save of 19 for a level 5 party.
I have to ask: What in the world did you do to your GM to deserve such a horrendous fate??
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Well, it might happen in the Tomb of Horrors...
I kid, I kid. The Tomb of Horrors wouldn't take that long to kill you.
Also, Perception checks wouldn't save you. ;)
Bah I've faced worse traps than tomb of horrors :P
Entrance to the boss battle. Ok the door isn't trapped Rogue rolled a 19 and has a +14 at level 5.
Kick open the door. Charge in. Reflex saves. The trap was 2 steps into the room not on the door, so we couldn't look for it without starting the boss battle at the same time. 3 Caster level 10 empowered fireball traps :P 45d6 Reflex save of 19 for a level 5 party.
This DM would need a good stat block himself to overcome the action economy of the players pummeling him.
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Kick open the door. Charge in. Reflex saves. The trap was 2 steps into the room not on the door, so we couldn't look for it without starting the boss battle at the same time. 3 Caster level 10 empowered fireball traps :P 45d6 Reflex save of 19 for a level 5 party.
That is great. The placement of the trap, that is. The damage is a bit much.
I have to ask: What in the world did you do to your GM to deserve such a horrendous fate??Nothing that was just that campaign.
39 character deaths in 3.5 months. We averaged 2-3 character deaths a session with our maximum being at 7 (the 2 wizards died 3 times that session and the rogue died once). He just routinely threw encounters that were 3-6 CR above our APL.
Hey, if that's what it says on the tin, more power to this guy.
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Hey, if that's what it says on the tin, more power to this guy.I have to ask: What in the world did you do to your GM to deserve such a horrendous fate??Nothing that was just that campaign.
39 character deaths in 3.5 months. We averaged 2-3 character deaths a session with our maximum being at 7 (the 2 wizards died 3 times that session and the rogue died once). He just routinely threw encounters that were 3-6 CR above our APL.
I don't know that it even needs to say it on the tin. The smoking remains of the 45 dead characters from previous attempts at the campaign sticking out from under the lid would probably be enough. :)
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Your GM doesn't understand that his role is to challenge the PCs, not to be an adversary to the PCs.
His house rule doesn't make sense, and goes against the intent of how the skills system is supposed to work.
Ditch the house rule, or ditch the adversarial GM.
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Kick open the door. Charge in. Reflex saves. The trap was 2 steps into the room not on the door, so we couldn't look for it without starting the boss battle at the same time. 3 Caster level 10 empowered fireball traps :P 45d6 Reflex save of 19 for a level 5 party.That is great. The placement of the trap, that is. The damage is a bit much.
Agreed. Traps should be brutal, and part of that brutality is achieved by playing with the expectations of them, expecially placement.
However, as part of "discuss it as an adult", you could raise the possibility of rolling multiple times when searching. Just to highlight potential problems with his house...
I agree wholeheartedly.
Your GM doesn't understand that his role is to challenge the PCs, not to be an adversary to the PCs.
His house rule doesn't make sense, and goes against the intent of how the skills system is supposed to work.
Ditch the house rule, or ditch the adversarial GM.
We had to do just this years ago with a GM (we used to alternaste between 3 of us who enjoy GMing, but now it's down to 2 of us). We continue to invite him to the games as a player, but we (the other 8 of us) have no interest in allowing him to run for our group.
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I think the lot fo you guys have bad experience with traps, and maybe with bad GMs, and I also feel that you are missing about the fun of traps.
I think this is an illness caused by the 3.X rules.
Back in 1e, the most deadly module was supposedly the Tomb of Horrors.
None of my team died in it. Why ?
Because the module was based on cautiousness and observation. Thats's why ! And let me tell you, this one module was quite rewarding to win.
I think it is a shame to rely on just a perception check, when a good written boxed text should give you the clues you need, and I think also that disarm rolls are a pain.
I don not want a PFRPG 2.0 ruleset, but one of the few thing that could sell me on this would be to solve that, and recreate the trap fun that once was.
Also, I think not all traps should be equal : some should be detectable easily, but nearly impossible to disarm, others should be invisible, but easy to disarm.
I am quite disappointed with how this part is currently handled.
So Stereofm because the player was paying a lot of attention to what the DM was paraphrasing (or reading) then the character gets to find the trap?
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Let me give you an example of how it could work :
You have a corridor.
With a perception roll, you can notice easily traces of dried blood and crushed bones. (Dc 15).
So you know there is a trap, you do not know exactly what it does.
Now, it is not too hard really to figure that the walls are going to close on you, and crush you to death.
Further roll could allow you to also learn that the doors on both side are going to close on you.
So how are you going to solve it :
1) USe a fly spell, don't touch the ground, and don't activate the trap ?
2) make it so the doors can't close, and run for it ?
3 ) Use an immovable rod to prevent the walls from closing on you ?
or
4) Just a stupid die roll ?
I know which one I'd prefer.
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I remember back in my day, we had to walk to eachothers houses carrying all our books in hands, up and down hill, in snow, during a blizzard. Pretty sure there were pterodactyls too. It was a fine old day and everything was better. Everything! You all just don't know what you missed by being born into the 90s!
Edit: Also, our books were written on stone tablets. Not one page tablets that have 100s of pages on them like people have nowadays, but 100s of pages of stone tablets.
Kidding aside... not sure how talk about generational gap came into a talk about taking 10/20.
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I remember back in my day, we had to walk to eachothers houses carrying all our books in hands, up and down hill, in snow, during a blizzard. Pretty sure there were pterodactyls too. It was a fine old day and everything was better. Everything! You all just don't know what you missed by being born into the 90s!
Kidding aside... not sure how talk about generational gap came into a talk about taking 10/20.
What generation gap ? I'm talking about poorly thoughts rules.