This thread got me thinking...
How would you rank the combat maneuvers in terms of effectiveness/usefulness? It's probably worth dividing the question into whether you're taking Improved or Greater Feats for the given maneuver, as those can have a significant impact.
Without too much contemplation, here's my list:
Grapple (Improved) - With only Improved Grapple, you won't be doing much of the fancy stuff, but you have an edge on enemies that will grab you and you can life very difficult for spellcasters. Grapple is the king of combat maneuvers, and this will never be rendered obsolete by size. Standard action.
Trip (Improved) - -4 to AC is a really nice debuff, but it has the opposite effect for your ranged allies. Essentially immobilizes enemies unless they choose to take the AoO for standing up. Can be used in place of an attack. Size limited.
Disarm (Improved) - They can't crit you with their greataxe if they don't have a greataxe anymore. Also good for taking holy symbols away from enemy clerics. Can be used in place of an attack.
Bull Rush (Improved) - Knocking someone off a cliff is a good way to end a fight early. Also useful for giving allies some breathing space or clearing a doorway. Standard action. Can be used in a charge. Size limited.
Sunder (Improved) - Disarm is better at taking away weapons, cutting through armor takes big damage and/or adamantine weapons. More clever uses (i.e. sundering component pouches) can yield some fun results, though. Can be used in place of an attack.
Reposition (Improved) [APG] - You really need to stack CMB to move someone more than one space. Still, can be useful for awkward positioning in close quarters. Standard action. Size limited.
Dirty Trick (Improved) [APG] - They can spend a move action or wait a round for the debuff to go away. Really not worth the action economy in most cases. Standard action.
Overrun (Improved) - Target can choose to avoid you. Only really seems useful for getting into flanking position or getting through a chokepoint. Standard action. Can be used in a charge. Size limited.
Drag (Improved) [APG] - It's the opposite of Bull Rush, but without any real upside. Standard action.
Steal (Improved) [APG] - You can't use this to take attended objects. You can't use this to take objects that are in a bag or pouch. Only really useful for taking someone's spell component pouch, and Sunder is better for that. MEH. Standard action.
You could probably rearrange the bottom three in any order without much of an argument from me. Maneuvers get a bump if they can be used as an attack as you'll get more out of them.
And now the Greaters...
Grapple (Greater) - You can now make two Grapple checks per round. Insanely good. Move action option, in addition to Standard action.
Trip (Greater) - Provoking attacks from you and your allies is a game changer. This creates crazy action economy. Can be used as part of an attack. Size limited.
Bull Rush (Greater) - Now provokes from allies (but not you). Better. Standard action. Can be used in a charge. Size limited.
Reposition (Greater) [APG] - Now provokes from allies (but not you). Better, but the attacks come before the target is moved, so you're either moving it away from a bunch of attacks or into a bunch of people that don't get to take the AoO. Mixed bag. Standard action. Size limited.
Sunder (Greater) - Transfer extra damage to the target creature. Nice, but you have to be doing a lot of damage to get armor to destroyed.
Disarm (Greater) - You can knock their weapon 15 ft away. Marginally more useful.
Dirty Trick (Greater) [APG] - Now it's a standard action to remove, with multiple rounds for the debuff. Much better for certain conditions, such as Blinded. Standard action.
Overrun (Greater) - Now targets knocked prone provoke AoO...but they can still just choose to avoid you. MEH. Standard action. Can be used in a charge. Size limited.
Drag (Greater) [APG] - Provokes AoOs now. Presents a fun image, but not all that useful in practice. Standard action.
Steal (Greater) [APG] - Hey! Now they don't notice you stole something. Sigh. Standard action.
i disagree on Dirty Trick
it's alot better than you give it credit.
especially with the feat fast Dirty Trick - that will allow you to make AOO and blind the opponent.
I agree that Dirty Trick gets better with more feats, but it's a slow start. I was trying to rank them on their own merits--what do you get if you only invest up to Improved or Greater?
I also have a hidden bias on Dirty Trick. The way it's defined is heavily subject to GM interpretation, and since I play PFS almost exclusively, I try to avoid areas where my character's abilities will depend on the GM.
redward wrote: I agree that Dirty Trick gets better with more feats, but it's a slow start. I was trying to rank them on their own merits--what do you get if you only invest up to Improved or Greater?
I also have a hidden bias on Dirty Trick. The way it's defined is heavily subject to GM interpretation, and since I play PFS almost exclusively, I try to avoid areas where my character's abilities will depend on the GM.
i think that its varies againt who you fight.
trip is ubber - but useless Vs huge and flying
grapple? ubber Vs 1 creature but Vs a rending best or a hoard ?
dirty - can save a character, but ... need alot to work
redward wrote:
Overrun (Greater) - Now targets knocked prone provoke AoO...but they can still just choose to avoid you. MEH. Standard action. Can be used in a charge. Size limited.
Improved Overrun prevents the enemy from avoiding it.
Depends on the situation but overall I'd rate differently:
TRIP The most commonly used maneuver in my experience. Any full BAB character should have a high enough CMB to trip frequently without any feats, although it does provoke and AoO without the feat. Can be used as part of a full attack action, that means a trip attempt can be a CMB replacing a later iterative attack at -5/-10/-15 which is likely to miss. Has two major effects, keeps opponents from charging to the back-line bathrobe clad folks and keeps opponents where a full-attack action can be used; and two minor effects if the creature tripped doesn't stand up (provoking an AoO and forgoing a full attack action), lowers tripped being's AC and lowers tripped being's chance to hit. Biggest problem is that some foes are untrippable.
DISARM Second most common maneuver. Full BAB classes should be able to use, provokes without feat, can replace a later iterative attack. Causes foe to chose between taking a move action to recover weapon (thus not charging to the bathrobes/not taking a full-attack action/not getting out of full-attack range) or attacking barehanded. Superior effect to trip, but limited to opponents who carry and depend on weapons (some opponents use weapons but are not dependent on them, expletive barbed devils).
GRAPPLE If you are going to build a combat maneuver character this is the maneuver you will be using a lot. Very few creatures are not candidates for grappling, unlike the previous two maneuvers. Immobilizes target and can be used to pin and tie-up the target in subsequent round which effectively defeats the target. Works best with specialization; the greater grapple, over and under, pinning knockout, choke-hold feats greatly improve grappling. While full BAB classes would make the best grapplers there are better options for them, so specialized grappling should be left to monks (who are sadly limited in effective builds) and strangler/sap master rogues (an interesting concept, never seen one used so not sure if it works). Occasionally a good action for a non-specialized character to take but it requires a standard action which means it cannot be combined with either a charge or a full attack which is usually a better choice.
BULL RUSH A marginally useful repositioning attack. It's major advantage is that it can be used as part of a charge. There are times when a bull rush is a better choice than an attack at the end of a charge. Not often enough to justify spending a feat on for any class other than a fighter (and not an early feat) but players should know about and be aware of the option to use the maneuver.
OVERRUN Ugh. A truly terrible maneuver, provokes an AoO and can be avoided simply by your opponent choosing to do so. Sometimes you have to charge somewhere in a hurry and an opponent is between you and where you have to be. This is not a maneuver you elect to make, it is a maneuver you are forced to make. If you are being forced to make overrun attacks often enough to make the improved overrun feat a good idea then look at the charge through feat also.
DRAG If you are in a party of 6 dexterity melee types with combat reflexes it can be great fun to take turns using the greater drag feat to pull foes through a gauntlet of AoOs. Not otherwise worth feats to improve. Only players who spend 1/2 an hour checking out rule books each combat round are likely to use it, even on those rare occasions when it is useful.
REPOSITION/STEAL/DIRTY TRICK A waste of rules to even include them. If a player is considering making one of these maneuvers for any purpose other than character flavor, do them a favor and hit them alongside the head with the CRB. There is always a better use for a standard action.
SUNDER Is actually worse than the useless maneuvers. Using sunder destroys loot. GM considerations may make this a viable maneuver but absent such stay away from this maneuver. If you are in a campaign where sunder is viable maneuver (not allowed to loot foes, GM is using the Paranoia Dramatic Tactical Combat system, foes all have crystals in their foreheads which have to be sundered to stop them from regenerating to full health each round, or similar) then the improved and greater sunder feats are a good investment.
cnetarian wrote: SUNDER Is actually worse than the useless maneuvers. Using sunder destroys loot. GM considerations may make this a viable maneuver but absent such stay away from this maneuver. If you are in a campaign where sunder is viable maneuver (not allowed to loot foes, GM is using the Paranoia Dramatic Tactical Combat system, foes all have crystals in their foreheads which have to be sundered to stop them from regenerating to full health each round, or similar) then the improved and greater sunder feats are a good investment. Another PFS exception, since any loot you use/destroy still gives you your share of gold and is available for purchase afterwards. Makes Sunder a lot more palatable.
Cnetarian,
Several times you mention using a maneuver to replace a later iterative attack. Are you suggesting that somehow you use a different BAB for the maneuver, or are you just assuming that creatures with high AC (so later iterative attacks will probably miss) have lower CMD (so later iterative maneuvers have a better chance)?
In other words, if a level 16 fighter (he has BAB 16/11/6/1) chooses to use a trip for his fourth attack, he will still only use the BAB 1 to calculate his CMB for that Trip attempt, right? I would think that in most cases, when BAB 1 is too low to expect an attack to hit, it's probably also too low to expect a maneuver to work - is your experience any different?
Also your comment about Overrun only applies if the person making the maneuver does not have the Improved Overrun feat which makes it so enemies cannot choose to avoid it.
Also, your comment about the Drag maneuver doesn't make it clear that you're assuming you have both Improved Drag and Greater Drag feats - without them, you won't create AoOs for your allies.
So you seem a bit inconsistent in your descriptions: for Overrun you assume no feats and for Drag you assume two feats.
I think dirty trick is better than you give it.
In fact, if the player is playing a skulking slayer it is extremely effective. You can substitute a dirty trick maneuver for a sneak attack. Thus the skulking slayer, while flanking (or a few other situations) can perform a dirty trick maneuver instead of their first attack and then continue on with the rest of their attacks. Not bad at all, especially if you have greater dirty trick. Now you are applying the blind condition, still dealing damage, and the enemy either wastes a turn to remove the bind condition or has a nice set of negatives.
Without any investment at all, every maneuver is a waste of time outside of very specific circumstances.
With the investment of feats, Grapple and Dirty Trick are the best by a mile. None of the others are even really relevant.
Trip is vastly overrated. It only works as a focus for the first 6-10 levels and then becomes irrelevant as more enemies become immune.
All of the Greater Maneuvers that cause the target to provoke are ok--personally, I'd lean towards Drag or Reposition being better than Bullrush (since your allies are rarely ahead of you, they're behind and to the sides), but those, too, become impossible to rely on in most cases.
Sunder is great because of Spell Sunder and nothing else. Disarm and Steal are worthless 90% of the time because typically, enemies don't care about weapons or equipment.
This evaluation totally changes, however, in a game that just has you face humanoids with class levels for the whole game. In that case, every maneuver is valuable and awesome.
Edit: Overrun is so irrelevant I didn't even remember it until an edit.
mplindustries wrote: Without any investment at all, every maneuver is a waste of time outside of very specific circumstances... More PFS-specific modifiers:
Since PFS only goes to level 12 (outside progression via sanctioned modules), Trip remains mostly relevant throughout most of a character's career.
Although you definitely begin to encounter more creatures without weapons as you progress, the ones that do rarely have backups, which makes Disarm somewhat useful, if not situational.
DM_Blake wrote: Cnetarian,
Several times you mention using a maneuver to replace a later iterative attack. Are you suggesting that somehow you use a different BAB for the maneuver, or are you just assuming that creatures with high AC (so later iterative attacks will probably miss) have lower CMD (so later iterative maneuvers have a better chance)?
In other words, if a level 16 fighter (he has BAB 16/11/6/1) chooses to use a trip for his fourth attack, he will still only use the BAB 1 to calculate his CMB for that Trip attempt, right? I would think that in most cases, when BAB 1 is too low to expect an attack to hit, it's probably also too low to expect a maneuver to work - is your experience any different?
Also your comment about Overrun only applies if the person making the maneuver does not have the Improved Overrun feat which makes it so enemies cannot choose to avoid it.
Also, your comment about the Drag maneuver doesn't make it clear that you're assuming you have both Improved Drag and Greater Drag feats - without them, you won't create AoOs for your allies.
So you seem a bit inconsistent in your descriptions: for Overrun you assume no feats and for Drag you assume two feats.
the formula is:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
base attack bonus is defined in the CRB as:
Base Attack Bonus (BAB): Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Combat).
3.5 used this defintion:
An attack roll bonus derived from character class and level. Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes. A character gains a second attack when his or her base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different classes, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.
IIRC (and my AD&D 2nd books are packed away so I'm not going to check) this came from AD&D 2nd where characters used THAC0 to roll to hit and each attack made in a combat round after the first received an increasing penalty.
BY the definition in 3.5 (and PF) the BAB is the be 1st number, which grants additional attacks when the BAB gets high enough. The numbers after the first are 'attack bonuses', which by evolution should be defined as numbers calculated as the BAB modified by a penalty for each additional attack. This is complicated however by player usage which often seems to follow a
hypothetical usage driven definition of BAB:
Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's highest base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack with a separate base attack bonus in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Combat).
There are indications in PF (and some of the 3.5 books) that the hypothetical definition is used and the additional attacks have a different BAB instead of an 'attack bonus' calculated by applying a -5 penalty to the BAB for each attack after the first, but there are also indications for the BAB is only the first attack number. Unless I missed a FAQ (not at all impossible), there has never been an explicit redefinition of BAB like the hypothetical one. I have no problem with the usage driven definition, have played with it often and consider it a reasonable rule - if it were clarified that iterative attacks have their own BAB instead of an 'attack bonus" based on BAB with penalty I would not at all be upset, but absent such a clarification I have to consider RAW to be that the BAB is the highest number and the iterative attacks are in addition to the BAB attack with "attack bonuses" but not BABs.
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As for overrun, there may be occasional tactical situations where you need to be somewhere where am opponent is in your way and also you need to knock them prone in the process of moving, but that should not be a common situation. Most times when you want to knock someone prone you also want to be next to them, in which case a move followed by a trip works does the job and causes fewer positioning problems. If overruns are common enough for you to make taking the improved overrun feat a good idea, then you should consider also taking the charge through feat. Feats are a limited resource and every feat you take to deal with a rare situation costs a feat with more utility.
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The comment is about how in some oddball circumstances improved and greater drag can be very useful feats and well worth the cost. Less clear is the observation that the maneuver itself is overlooked when it would be an excellent thing to do. Looking back I can think of several times when I or someone in my party should have used drag, but it is such an obscure maneuver that we just forgot about it.
I'd say:
Grapple
Trip
Disarm
Bull Rush
Sunder
Overrun
Disarm vs. Bull Rush is very situational (any cliffs around?), but just for archers I put Disarm higher.
Greater Trip
Greater Grapple
Greater Bull Rush
Greater Disarm
Greater Sunder
... I don't even know what Greater Overrun does... no avoiding?
I am a huge fan of sunder, and I can't understand why its getting such a bad rap. I understand loss of loot, however, you can give the item the broken condition, without destroying it. Worst case, you can have you're casters use the make whole spell, to repair magical items back to normal.
The main benefit of sunder is for the spell sunder rage power. it is too versatile and useful to be ignored. For spell sunder alone I would bump up sunder a few more spots in usefulness.
Also, sundering a spell pouch, or the cloak of a wizard to lay more damage on him through greater sunder.
cnetarian wrote: hypothetical usage driven definition of BAB:
Each creature has a base attack bonus and it represents its skill in combat. As a character gains levels or Hit Dice, his base attack bonus improves. When a creature's highest base attack bonus reaches +6, +11, or +16, he receives an additional attack with a separate base attack bonus in combat when he takes a full-attack action (which is one type of full-round action—see Combat).
There are indications in PF (and some of the 3.5 books) that the hypothetical definition is used and the additional attacks have a different BAB instead of an 'attack bonus' calculated by applying a -5 penalty to the BAB for each attack after the first, but there are also indications for the BAB is only the first attack number. Unless I missed a FAQ (not at all impossible), there has never been an explicit redefinition of BAB like the hypothetical one. I have no problem with the usage driven definition, have played with it often and consider it a reasonable rule - if it were clarified that iterative attacks have their own BAB instead of an 'attack bonus" based on BAB with penalty I would not at all be upset, but absent such a clarification I have to consider RAW to be that the BAB is the highest number and the iterative attacks are in addition to the BAB attack with "attack bonuses" but not BABs.
It's not at all unreasonable to come to the conclusion that each iterative attack has its own separate BAB, especially in the light of many rules entries which refer to "your highest base attack bonus."
However, even if that is not the case, general bonuses and penalties to attacks also apply to combat maneuver attempts. So the penalties for iterative attacks would apply to combat maneuvers taken in their place.
When figuring out CMB, the first number is the characters BAB, so f you are replacing one of your interstices for a trip attack, and it's the last iterative that is 15/10/5.. Meaning 10 less than the highest, you use the 5 BAB for that and all other numbers for CMB as normal.
Ex. Your normal trip CMB is +38. And your level 12 so you have 3 attacks, at +13/8/3 if full bab progression. If you use your first and second attack for damage for normal attacks, but your third and final is a trip, you use the +3 BAB number, not the +13, and continue adding on the other abilities or stats for CMB as normal.
MacGurcules wrote: It's not at all unreasonable to come to the conclusion that each iterative attack has its own separate BAB, especially in the light of many rules entries which refer to "your highest base attack bonus."
However, even if that is not the case, general bonuses and penalties to attacks also apply to combat maneuver attempts. So the penalties for iterative attacks would apply to combat maneuvers taken in their place.
No, it isn't an unreasonable conclusion but by similar token for every instance "highest base attack bonus" there seems to be an instance of "full base attack bonus" used to refer to the same thing. Either reading is reasonable and there is no lack of inferential support for both readings scattered throughout the rules. I even go so far as to suspect if M.s Bulmahn, Cook, Jacobs, Reynolds, Connors, Courts, Daigle, Eithelbach, Oppedisano & Woon (no offense intended, I just copied the names from my CRB) were put in separate rooms and asked which is correct, both readings would have supporters who thought the answer obvious. But, while both readings are reasonable, and neither significantly changes character power, and I am happy to play with either ruling without complaint; when it comes to deciding what the official rule is, I have to side with the reading which most closely aligns with the text of the definition of BAB as written until there is a clarification.
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I didn't recall correctly. Through the simple expedient of asking, I discovered that AD&D2nd did not penalize attacks after the first in a round and they were all made with the same THAC0. TSR did use the increasing penalty to attacks after the first for some games (Boot Hill at least), but not for AD&D2nd. While the change to attack bonuses after the first attack may be a generally applicable penalty, assuming it is so by evolution is off the table and there is no reason to conclude it is a penalty applicable to manuvers made using iterative attacks. This is supported by the text referring to combat maneuvers which says: PRD wrote: "When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. Notice that the CMB doesn't replace the base attack bonus but the normal attack bonus, there is no reason to use "normal' instead of 'base" unless the normal attack bonus already includes the penalty for attacks after the first.
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note: if the reading that BAB is separate numbers is used it provides a much needed boost to relative monk power, since monk maneuver training means a monk use monk level instead of BAB to calculate CMB, thus a level 13 monk with a BAB of +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 would use +13 instead of +1 when substituting a combat maneuver for that final +1 iterative attack while an unarmed TWF fighter would be stuck with the +1 for the same maneuver. if the reading that BAB is the highest number modified by a penalty for attacks after the first which is applicable to CMB is used then monks are still weak.
If Bruno was not a beautiful and handsome Tetori, he would be tricksy type that Dirty Tricked / Tripped stupid ugly monsters.
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