I noticed on the SRD the other day that the Synthesist Summoner is banned by the Pazio Pathfinder Society. I just started playing one and I can only assume that this change is due to class balance issues?
Are there any balance suggestions or will the archtype be updated at any point?
Can you highlight the main issues for this change?
Also when was this change made - as I'm sure I looked online just before Christmas and the only note on there was about an Errata to the armor being worn?
Thanks for any advice.
Karack :)
Pounce at level 1 seems a bit too powerful unless your in a game where terrain is an issue where you wont be able to charge too often.
The shear number of attacks at full base attack bonus gets to be a problem.
The lack of ability to use armor can be an issue, you can always use bracers of armor though, which give you a lot of cost issues, and you need to choose between getting AC and armor effects. Because of this people will ALWAYS choose natural armor from the Eidolon's bonus vs. armor. However there are slots that give armor AC though so the bracers of armor are usually used for effects. Then you need an Amulet of Mighty fist. So the costs for things that a fighter gets face the same issues as a monk. This is mitigated by the huge bonuses they get to physical stats and spells. There is a lot spells that you can use on your eidolon that normally you would not be able to normally which gives a lot of power too.
So there is a lot of give and take here, but with the wide variety of strange abilities and ability to combine them, you get with something that on paper looks worse than it is, but is stronger than say a fighter mostly due to versatility.
IMHO, there is no need to balance them too much if your in a 20pt or 25pt buy game.
In general,
I would make pounce not buy-able till level 5-6. If your in a 10-15 point-buy, I suggest dropping the number of attacks by 1. That should do the trick. If things really get out of hand, I suggest posting the build up here so people can give a look at it, chances are it was built wrong. If that isn't the problem, and it is just raw power, maybe have the synthesist NOT get the Eidolon's base attack. That would be a slight tweak that should help.
-Hexen
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It wasn't really due to 'balance' issues as it was allowed for quite some time. I believe the real reason was the archtype, while being really great as a concept, was not written as well as it needed to be to not require heavy interpretation. That makes table variance a huge issue for PFS play, especially with the number of rules exceptions/errata/FAQs all over the place that make 'building' the character correctly difficult as well.
Basically great idea, poor implementation and it is easier to disallow it than put the work into a rewrite for the archtype just for PFS play. People who like the archtype 'make it work' for their games, those who don't just ban it outright (from what it seems like on the forums).
Pounce isn't the issue, them being unkillable is the issue.
Which is a shame, because the idea is great.
They were far from 'unkillable' as the normal summoner has more options and far better action economy (being able to cast spells as well as the eidolon being able to do its own 'thing'). The synth also is very restricted (summoner spells basically) on how they can regain the bonus HP pool, where as a summoner/eidolon combo can be healed through CLW and Channel Positive Energy bursts which affect everyone else equally.
But I agree it was a great idea and opened up many possibilities that were near impossible to do otherwise in the game.
They don't have to be taken out by hit point damage.
Who mentioned poisons?
I am just saying hit point damage is not the only way to take any creature out. It can be poison. It can be ability damage/drain. There are spell like dismissal that that work. The sleep spell makes the summoner unconscious which should seen the eidolon away IIRC.
And as for the brute force statement, which I somehow missed it really depends on now optimized it is, and where the fight takes place. The hardest hitting builds are huge, but even large sized builds may have problems fitting into certain areas.
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Pounce isn't the issue, them being unkillable is the issue.
Which is a shame, because the idea is great.
At high levels, it is orders of magnitude more difficult to kill a wizard.
I don't know if you can use Multi Weapon Attack in Pathfinder Society,
Monster feats are not permitted unless granted by a PFS legal source. Synthesists picked up multi-attack at level 9 but were unable to access multi-weapon fighting.
Fair enough - generally speaking, synthesists are very strong defensively - good AC, tons of HP, sundry other defences... pretty tough to nail down (not that anything is unkillable).
I find it highly amusing that most people on the forums, including the developers, profess defense as inferior to offense.
Until a defensive build is presented that actually works, then it is overpowered cheese. (There are options other than Synthesist.)
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Unless the mission you've been sent on is also on the astral plane, I'm not seeing how that allows you to function as an adventurer?
Still not quite sure what you're trying to prove... wizards are powerful?
This spell functions as astral projection, except you cannot leave the Astral Plane and explore other planes (though you can still return to the plane you were on when you cast this spell).
Emphasis mine.
And the point is: why would you ban one class for being able to survive and allow other classes that are better. If you want to ban any class that can be made near impossible to kill, you'll have to include all full casters, paladins and monks at a minimum.
FYI: the character I converted my synthesist over to has a higher AC, better saves and hits harder.
In my opinion Synth Summoners only get overpowered at the mid/high levels. At the lower levels they seem far more tame. Plain old summoners just seem way better at the lower levels.
A maxed strength raging barbarian with a greatsword is hitting at +8 attack bonus with 2d6+10 damage. A Synth summoner is getting something like +3 attack bonus at 1d6+3, 1d4+3, 1d4+3. Roughly equal damage output but the barbarian is far more accurate and does it when he moves while the summoner can only do it on a full attack.
I don't know if you can use Multi Weapon Attack in Pathfinder Society, but if you can, you can just get more and more arms and every 5 levels you get 6 more attacks. Add in improved unarmed strike or even worse Dervish Dance (if it's allowed) with scimitars and you have a killing machine. You start at 4 attacks (your 2 arms and the eidolons 2 arms you buy for 2 evo points) +1BAB (the eidolons) +6 natural Armor (+4 from the aquatic form plus another two from the last evo point) and str 16 dex 12 con 13 while having them as total dumpstats.
It gets worse per level to 17 attacks with +8BAB, ~+10 from str or dex (if dervish dance is allowed...you then also get +10AC, otherwise "only" +3AC) +12 nat AC at lvl 10 or 28 attacks with +15BAB, +12 from str/dex, +20AC (natural)+5/12AC (Dex).
Or even better, dip one of the first levels into monk and you get IUS for free, can make stunning fist and get your WIS to armor and CMD.
The Summoner's two arms don't count. Only how many arms the eidolon has; if you use a base form other than biped it starts with 0 arms and you have to buy every pair of arms.
Multiweapon Fighting gives one attack per arm after the first; only the primary hand increases with BAB.
This is why everyone thinks synthesists are horribly overpowered. Any character that breaks / ignores / invents rules are going to be overpowered.
We had a Synthesist join a 15th level home game at 14th level. He hasn't really looked any better in combat than the Beastmorph Master Chymist so far. Everybody has a good laugh when his "crab angel" eidolon pops and his scrawny PC with 7 in all physical ability scores ends up standing there naked to the world in front of every kind of monster.
I guess the Master Chymist in question might be considered a little ridiculous too. Maybe the problem is that it is so easy to build a powerful Synthesist that DMs get tired of seeing the archetype real fast. I wonder if the same might be true to a lesser extend of the entire Summoner class.
On the other hand, maybe PFS really did just ban the Synthesist for being too complicated. It would be interesting to know the facts. If the class was actually banned for being too powerful we'll have to give our player a hard time for failing to excel even with an "officially overpowered" class.
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The Summoner's two arms don't count.Why?
If the synthesist wants to use his eidolon's natural attacks and use his own manufactured weapons or natural weapons in the same round, his eidolon needs to have enough limbs to account for all of these attacks.
Yes. On lvl 10 you get 14 evolution points resulting in 14 arms resulting in 2 main hand and 13 off hand attacks (+2 summoners hands gets to the 17 I mentioned).
I don't suppose you would be willing to tally up how much is would cost for decent weapons?
Holding a bare minimum +1 weapon in each hand is going to take the majority of your wealth. All weapons save the primary will be light weapons if you intend to actually hit anything. Very little wealth is available for anything else and still leaves you ineffective vs any kind of DR.
[qupte]At lvl 1 a dwarven biped eidolon synth can spend his evo in 2 extra arms and a nat AC raise (and multi weapon attack) for at least 4 attacks with +2 atk and 1d10+3dmg
You're forgetting the -4 to-hit penalty for using something other than a light weapon and all off-hands using only 1/2 the strength bonus for damage.
Flailing away with weapons dealing 1d8+1 damage hoping for high roles does very low DPR. At second level you can have the privilege of flailing around with even more weapons dealing 1d10+1, but your DPR will still be low.
I will concede: it looks very impressive before involving real numbers.
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I was a synth - gun slinger mysterious stranger.
I had 14 arms at the end, each with a double barrel pistol, I fired 28 shots a round, and trust me, I didnt have low dpr.
Your GM did not invoke the rule that allows him to restrict the number of free actions available per round. I also doubt you were tracking ammo costs.
Those are common issues with gunslingers in general and have little to do the synthesists.
We had a Synthesist join a 15th level home game at 14th level. He hasn't really looked any better in combat than the Beastmorph Master Chymist so far. Everybody has a good laugh when his "crab angel" eidolon pops and his scrawny PC with 7 in all physical ability scores ends up standing there naked to the world in front of every kind of monster.
Does he not sacrifice his own HP to keep his eidelon alive? If he isn't, then he's not using one of his strongest abilities for staying alive. Especially since summoning the eidelon gives him a bunch of normal HP for the bonus to con... With his and his eidelons HP combined, he shouldn't be losing it. The only problem would be the eidelon being dismissed, but that's a will save that he should be able to make consistently.
I'm betting the PC is playing his character poorly more than the synthesist not being OP.
I was a synth - gun slinger mysterious stranger.
I had 14 arms at the end, each with a double barrel pistol, I fired 28 shots a round, and trust me, I didnt have low dpr.Your GM did not invoke the rule that allows him to restrict the number of free actions available per round. I also doubt you were tracking ammo costs.
Those are common issues with gunslingers in general and have little to do the synthesists.
Free action reloads and an infinite supply of money to pay for the ammo or not, how's he reloading with all his hands occupied? DPR goes down pretty fast if he has to drop half his weapons on the second round to reload the rest. And of course it's running into the same issue as Jofarin's Kali build - the cost of all those weapons means that they'll be crap individually and useless as soon as they run into an enemy with DR. It's a single round nova idea that shouldn't survive any fight that goes into a second or third round since his guns are either jammed, empty, or on the ground after he uses all the ammo in his bandoleer and his few grit points right off the hop.
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Free action reloads and an infinite supply of money to pay for the ammo or not, how's he reloading with all his hands occupied? DPR goes down pretty fast if he has to drop half his weapons on the second round to reload the rest. And of course it's running into the same issue as Jofarin's Kali build - the cost of all those weapons means that they'll be crap individually and useless as soon as they run into an enemy with DR. It's a single round nova idea that shouldn't survive any fight that goes into a second or third round since his guns are either jammed, empty, or on the ground after he uses all the ammo in his bandoleer and his few grit points right off the hop.I was a synth - gun slinger mysterious stranger.
I had 14 arms at the end, each with a double barrel pistol, I fired 28 shots a round, and trust me, I didnt have low dpr.Your GM did not invoke the rule that allows him to restrict the number of free actions available per round. I also doubt you were tracking ammo costs.
Those are common issues with gunslingers in general and have little to do the synthesists.
Mysterious stranger levels meant I could ignore up to 6 misfires, as well as this was PFS, which means that not much of anything could survive that many bullets in a round. The other big cause and effect is, magic bullets are easy to come by with a simple spell you have 50 rounds of +1 ammo, and yes good sir, I did infact track my ammo cost per shot, being around 30 gold for a full salvo it was still quite impressive. Also, since you're curious, I had 14 hands, unless I needed more, in which cause I could cast and get a few more evolutions, which would be, surprise. More hands.
Synth is really broken WarMachiene armor. It really is.
I was a synth - gun slinger mysterious stranger.
I had 14 arms at the end, each with a double barrel pistol, I fired 28 shots a round, and trust me, I didnt have low dpr.
Mysterious stranger levels meant I could ignore up to 6 misfires, as well as this was PFS, which means that not much of anything could survive that many bullets in a round. The other big cause and effect is, magic bullets are easy to come by with a simple spell you have 50 rounds of +1 ammo, and yes good sir, I did infact track my ammo cost per shot, being around 30 gold for a full salvo it was still quite impressive. Also, since you're curious, I had 14 hands, unless I needed more, in which cause I could cast and get a few more evolutions, which would be, surprise. More hands.
Synth is really broken WarMachiene armor. It really is.
Okay, so you were at least fifth level gunslinger then (with a 22 Cha, I assume physical stats were 7/7/7 and Int and Wis were balanced?). That puts you at seventh level summoner at most. 10 evolution points, maybe one more from favoured class bonus if you were a half-elf, and at most three more from Extra Evolution. So it's possible that you spent a good third of your resources on getting extra arms. But I fail to understand
a: what you did on round 2 of fights.
b: how you were able to fire 28 cartridges at a cost of only around 30gp when they should cost 288 gp (96 if you made them yourself at some point)
c: How the hell you hit anything with the Eidolon's BAB of 6, 15 Dex, -4 to hit for multiweapon fighting, and -4 to hit on every shot from the double pistols. That looks like a straight roll to hit - even against a big slow target, that should still only lead to a 50/50 chance or so of hitting; assuming that you actually spent the money on 14 +1 guns, that's a little under 90 points of damage in round one (and much lower after that) That doesn't seem particularly awesome for a 12th level nova attack.
d: how you were able to afford to spend half your level 12 WBL on just +1 pistols
e: how you survived five levels of gunslinger with dumped physical stats
f: how you survived the first round of fights that you didn't win initiative in, or where not all enemies were close enough to shoot at the same time. Are PFS scenarios overloaded with combats that start with everyone in the open within close pistol range of each other?