We were discussing a PC concept and I want to see if it is reasonably feasible. Doesn’t need to be completely optimal. Our group doesn’t always optimize well. So if he is just fairly decent he will fit right in. On the other hand, since we don’t optimize well, we can’t always pick up the slack for a really poor performing build.
What we were talking about was a ‘smart’ weapon fighter. No dumping mental stats, all of them at least a 10. Preferably 12 to 14. Ok so obviously, physical stats will be less than a really focused fighter. PC would use long term buffs to at least mostly make up the difference.
Problem we have sometimes seen with PC that tries to be a self buff martial/caster is they often have to spend the first few rounds of a fight buffing themselves. Usually by then the fight is almost over or the PC’s are losing badly because it is not almost over. Especially unhelpful if we get surprised/ambushed. Unfortunately that seems to happen a lot.
So buffs that are all day, hour per level, or 10 min per level seem ideal. Any of those would last long enough to cast when heading into the cave, castle, or haunted house and not need to be recast as each fight is starting. Maybe a single buff of rounds per level but not bunches of them (especially if can afford lesser rod of quicken).
We have not set on any specifics yet so it could be ranged, TWF, THF, S&B, arcane, divine, etc…
We are mostly just asking if the basic concept works. Have any of you tried it and how did it work out in actual use?
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Do they have to be using buffing spells? My first thought when you said smart weapon fighter was the lore warden fighter archetype. They give up heavy and medium armor proficiency in exchange for bonuses to intelligence skills and combat maneuvers.
I made a human lore warden for Pathfinder Society with 18 strength, 14 int, and 14 dex who uses a guisarme to trip with 10 foot reach, and combat reflexes. With 18 strength, improved trip and the lore warden bonuses, he's a monster at tripping, but he's also go straight up damage as a backup plan for stuff that can't be tripped. Because he's human and a lore warden, he gets 7 skill ranks per level, and all the knowledges are class skills for him, so he's also useful for non-combat stuff.
In my case, I dumped charisma so I could get higher constitution, and gave him an intentionally unlikeable, arrogant, know-it-all personality. But I like giving my PCs some sort of flaw, so it wasn't just for min-maxing. I could have done the same build with slightly lower physical stats and no dump stat, though. For instance, on a 20 point build:
Str: 17 (7) (+2 racial)
Dex: 14 (5)
Con: 13 (3)
Int: 14 (5)
Wis: 10
Cha: 10
Or maybe settle for 12 int to get the 18 str. With a reach weapon and combat reflexes, I consider 14 dex a minimum, especially since this guy has light armor and needs the dex bonus on AC.
A friend actually has started a very similar build to what you propose. Just starting, but seems to be working well.
But, this time, that is what we are trying to figure out.
Do any of the casters get enough effective long term buffs to make relying on them for martial prowess feasible?
Dragon disciple would work well for this, and, yes, long term buffs are good.
Heroism, greater magic weapon, freedom of movement, long strider, barkskin
So which class gets the most of these type of buffs.
At a quick glance, ranger seems to get a lot of them. But they get so few spells and get them so late, that doesn't really work.
So maybe druid?
3.5 build description
You might want to use some of the other ideas here, as the 3.5 and 3rd party spells and items were easily 1/2 my character. I think the only thing you'll get from my post is that you don't have to have your casting stat higher than your physical stat for a martial character, as you won't be casting at mobs.
Yeah, we were thinking a 14 in the casting stat should be high enough to cast buffs and utility spells until a headband of X is affordable.
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Do any of the casters get enough effective long term buffs to make relying on them for martial prowess feasible?
I think the key there is just action economy. Spending one round buffing at the start of a fight is acceptable. More than that, and you're wasting too much time buffing. So rather than focusing only on long term buffs, look for builds that can survive on a single buff cast at the start of the battle.
For instance, Divine Favor is a pretty good spell for clerics and oracles, because it increases the bonus at higher levels. For bards, it'll be your inspire courage performance, which aids yourself and the rest of the group. Or go dervish dancer or Dawnflower dervish bard to be able to inspire courage as a move action, but only on yourself.
Looking through the first few levels of spells while eating lunch for a couple of classes I found:
Bard
1 - Disguise Self, Feather Step, Invigorate, Youthful Appearance
2 - Heroism, Honeyed Tongue
3 - Glibness, Mass Invigorate
4 - Freedom of Movement
Druid
1 - Ant Haul, Endure Elements, Hide from Animals, Longstrider, Pass Without Trace, Cloak of Shade, Feather Step, Deadeye’s Lore
2 - Barkskin, Resist Energy, Spider Climb, Sent Trail, Certain Grip
3 - Greater Magic Fang, Protection From Energy, Water Breathing, Mass Feather Step, Lily Pad Stride, Resinous Skin
4 - Freedom of Movement, Life Bubble, Lesser Age Resistance, Plague Carrier, Echolocation
Not all of these are really combat buffs, but these are the ones with a long duration. Druid has a lot more of them. But a lot of them are fairly situational. I will start looking at some of the other classes when I get some more time later.
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Problem we have sometimes seen with PC that tries to be a self buff martial/caster is they often have to spend the first few rounds of a fight buffing themselves. Usually by then the fight is almost over or the PC’s are losing badly because it is not almost over. Especially unhelpful if we get surprised/ambushed. Unfortunately that seems to happen a lot.
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We are mostly just asking if the basic concept works. Have any of you tried it and how did it work out in actual use?
The kensai magus archetype manages this concept very, very well. Spell combat to buff + attack, initiative mods starting at level 7 and solid melee dpr.
Do any of the casters get enough effective long term buffs to make relying on them for martial prowess feasible?I think the key there is just action economy. Spending one round buffing at the start of a fight is acceptable. More than that, and you're wasting too much time buffing. So rather than focusing only on long term buffs, look for builds that can survive on a single buff cast at the start of the battle.
For instance, Divine Favor is a pretty good spell for clerics and oracles, because it increases the bonus at higher levels. For bards, it'll be your inspire courage performance, which aids yourself and the rest of the group. Or go dervish dancer or Dawnflower dervish bard to be able to inspire courage as a move action, but only on yourself.
Won't try to pretend I am an expert on this. But from what I have observed, casters that try to rely on just a single short term buff don't seem to be cutting it. It doesn't catch them back up to a even poorly built martial class. That's why they always seem to be trying to force in 3+ rounds of buffing.
Of course, that's mostly just for the big fights. If you are hammering on mooks or engaging in a bunch of spoiling fights designed to just weaken you then you don't need that much buffing.
... The kensai magus archetype manages this concept very, very well. Spell combat to buff + attack, initiative mods starting at level 7 and solid melee dpr.
Don't think I've heard of anyone using magus spell combat to keep attaking while they are buffing. Makes sense, but I've only heard it being used to cast attack spells while attacking with a weapon.
alchy or an alchy dip focusing on extracts? alchy are a very selfish buffer.
... The kensai magus archetype manages this concept very, very well. Spell combat to buff + attack, initiative mods starting at level 7 and solid melee dpr.Don't think I've heard of anyone using magus spell combat to keep attaking while they are buffing. Makes sense, but I've only heard it being used to cast attack spells while attacking with a weapon.
Spellstriking an offensive spell into an enemy's face is the obvious use for spell combat; but simply allowing a gish to be buffing at the same time as fighting the enemy was, I think, the original intent. In the first round, cast (either party buff or crowd control the enemy) & then close; second round full attack & cast a defensive spell; third round offensive buff then full attack.
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Do any of the casters get enough effective long term buffs to make relying on them for martial prowess feasible?I think the key there is just action economy. Spending one round buffing at the start of a fight is acceptable. More than that, and you're wasting too much time buffing. So rather than focusing only on long term buffs, look for builds that can survive on a single buff cast at the start of the battle.
For instance, Divine Favor is a pretty good spell for clerics and oracles, because it increases the bonus at higher levels. For bards, it'll be your inspire courage performance, which aids yourself and the rest of the group. Or go dervish dancer or Dawnflower dervish bard to be able to inspire courage as a move action, but only on yourself.
Won't try to pretend I am an expert on this. But from what I have observed, casters that try to rely on just a single short term buff don't seem to be cutting it. It doesn't catch them back up to a even poorly built martial class. That's why they always seem to be trying to force in 3+ rounds of buffing.
Of course, that's mostly just for the big fights. If you are hammering on mooks or engaging in a bunch of spoiling fights designed to just weaken you then you don't need that much buffing.
As with anything, it depends on the specific build. The fact is that martial non-casters will always be the combat monsters, and other classes will never keep up fully. But combat focused casters can still be pretty good at combat, while having other advantages on the side.
Take my example of Divine Favor for an oracle. You're taking a 3/4 BAB class that doesn't get the feats or martial buffs of a fighter or barbarian, and trying to fight on the front line. Divine Favor will make up for the lower BAB, but not the lack of combat feats, so the oracle can be pretty good in combat, but not a combat monster. But on the other hand, the oracle can also cast non-buff spells on the side, and has high charisma and usually social skills. So he may only be 80% as effective as a barbarian as a damage dealer, but that's still pretty good, and he does other things besides straight up damage that the barbarian can't.
1 - Disguise Self, Feather Step, Invigorate, Youthful Appearance, dancing lantern
2 - Heroism, Honeyed Tongue, delay poison
3 - Glibness, Mass Invigorate
4 - Freedom of Movement
1 - Ant Haul, Endure Elements, Hide from Animals, Longstrider, Pass Without Trace, Cloak of Shade, Feather Step, Deadeye’s Lore, dancing lantern, negate aroma
2 - Barkskin, Resist Energy, Spider Climb, Sent Trail, Certain Grip, delay poison
3 - Greater Magic Fang, Protection From Energy, Water Breathing, Mass Feather Step, Lily Pad Stride, Resinous Skin
4 - Freedom of Movement, Life Bubble, Lesser Age Resistance, Plague Carrier, Echolocation
1 – Endure Elements, mage armor, unseen servant, comprehend lang, disguise self, ant haul, youthful appearance, dancing lantern, crafter’s fortune
2 – protection from arrows, resist energy, see invisibility, false life, alter self, darkvision, spider climb, rope trick, share language, ghostly disguise, protective penumbra, certain grip, bullet shield
3 – nondetection, protection from energy, tongues, heroism, greater magic weapon, water breathing, draconic reservoir, ablative barrier, resinous skin, magic circle against evil, keen edge
4 – stone skin, detect scrying, shadow projection, lesser age resistance, greater darkvision, greater false life
1 – comprehend lang, detect evil*, endure elements, hide from undead, ant haul, dancing lantern
2 – resist energy, status, shield other, share language, delay poison, undetectable alignment
3 – deeper darkness, magic circle against evil, magic vestment, protection from energy, sacred bond, water walk
4 – greater magic weapon, freedom of movement, planar adaption, plague carrier, spell immunity
1 – comprehend lang, dancing lantern, mage armor, mask dweomer, youthful appearance,
2 – alter self, false life, see invisibility, delay poison, perceive cues, ghostly disguise, protective penumbra
3 – heroism, water walk, countless eyes
4 – detect scrying, lesser age resistance, greater false life, absorb toxicity
1 – comprehend lang, detect evil*, disguise self, hide from undead, tireless pursuit, deadeye’s lore
2 – delay poison, honeyed tongue, perceive cues, resist energy, see invisibility, shield other, tongues, corruption resistance, follow aura, sacred bond, undetectable alignment, delay pain, disguise other, ghostly disguise, bloodhound
3 – deeper darkness, heroism, magic circle vs evil, magic vestments, greater magic weapon, nondetection, protection from energy, keen edge, ward the faithful, countless eyes
4 – freedom of movement, stoneskin, spell immunity
1 – ant haul, comprehend lang, disguise self, endure elements, crafter’s fortune, negate aroma, youthful appearance
2 – alter self, barkskin, darkvision, delay poison, false life, perceive cues, resist energy, see invisibility, protection from arrows, undecteable alignment, ghostly disguise, ablative barrier, certain grip, bullet shield
3 – heroism, nondetection, protection from energy, absorbing touch, bloodhound, draconic reservoir, lesser age resistance, countless eyes, absorb toxicity, resinous skin,
4 – freedom of movement, stoneskin, spell immunity, age resistance, greater darkvision, echolocation greater false life
1 – unseen servant
2 – alter self, ablative barrier
3 – keen edge, greater magic weapon, water breathing
4 – stoneskin
Ok, I’m sure I missed some. But this is most of the 10min/ and greater duration spells for these classes. Let me know if you notice any I missed.
Most won't actually be anything that would help you in combat, but ther are still a lot that will. My first glance says that inquisitor, druid, or alchemist seem to have the most combat helpful ones. Witch and of course Sorc have alot, but they are 1/2 BaB classes so that will make it even harder.
Any other opinions?
No. I am not hung up on long duration buffs. I am perfectly aware that it is not enough to make or break a build. It was a thought exercise in response to what we have observed in some of the groups around us. Don't know if either of us would try to run it, but we might.
The only combat druids, oracles, or clerics that we have seen functioning with only 1 round of buffs have dumped int and cha and taking the bare min (usually 13) of wisdom.
The melee dragon disciple, bard, or inquisitors I've seen have again dumped a couple of stats and/or they are trying to use 3+ rounds of buffing for every fight.
Yes, if the fight is predicted and the opportunity is there so that they can buff before hand they do great. But somewhere around 2/3 of the serious fights they don't have that opportunity. So they spend 3+ rounds while everyone else is fighting buffing themselves. Maybe it is true they don't need to, but they always seem to think they do, so it still happens.
Having observed that (either stat dumping or long buffing), we were trying to think of ways around it. One of the things we thought of was to see if there were enough long term buffs that people wouldn't feel the need to buff for 3+ rounds or dump 2 stats.
I do not yet have a build, we were trying to figure out if it is even viable first.
Viable, yes. Note, that's not the same thing as "optimal;" especially with those that equate "optimal" with "the biggest bonuses."
Some people feel that they "need" to dump stats and/or spend extra time buffing to gain the largest bonuses they can. You can easily go with a 16 Str (14 +2 as half-elf, half-orc, or human), a 14-15 in the casting stat, and still have some points left over (assuming a 15-point buy, a 14 casting stat still allows a 13 Dex and 12 Con without having to reduce other stats below 10).
Alchemists (especially if using archetypes) can make very good combatants. Invest in a few admixture vials and/or the Combine Extracts discovery to speed up the self-buffing.
Bards make good self-buffing combatants, especially after reaching 7th level (when they can start a performance as a move action and cast a spell in the same round). They also gain heroism as a 2nd level spell. A 7th level bard can cast heroism (+2 morale bonus to attack rolls) lasting 70 minutes on entering a dungeon and then spend one round casting haste (+1 untyped bonus to attack rolls) and starting an Inspire Courage (+1 competence bonus to attack rolls) performance at the start of a combat. Granted, they don't have the spell slots to pull this off in every fight at 7th level (bardic performance can be used in almost every fight), but +4 to attack rolls (+3 and one fewer attack without haste) puts them pretty close to the effectiveness a full BAB class.
CODZilla (Cleric/Oracle/Druid-zilla) is a pretty well defined way to play. Inquisitor can be done in a similar manner, with less spells and more class abilities.
Magus can work pretty well, using the Spell Blending arcana to pick up some of the better sorcerer/wizard buffs that aren't on the magus list (false life, heroism, etc.).
Summoner can also work fairly well, with the appropriate choices and not just focusing on the eidolon (unless a synthesist). The summoner is, after all, designed around buffing as well as summoning.
Sorcerer/witch/wizard can do a decent job with some multi-classing and/or prestige classes (arcane archer, dragon disciple, and eldritch knight).
I totally forgot about the summoner since we don't usually want them in our group.
Yeah, I was thinking that magus had very few of this kind of spell. But spell blending will allow you to pick up a few of the better ones (a little late, but still).