I'm not certain about this, but as I understand it, if you are playing make believe, fantasy trumps reality every time.
Not when it's a shared make-believe and your fantasy messes with the enjoyment of everyone else at the table.
Or, "no, Frodo did not find an Elvish-make M1 Garand in the wight's barrow."
But roman leaders did go into battle with nipple-and-belly-button breastplates. They also had 6-pack abs.Part of me likes vikings in horned helmets and roman emperor going to battle with their nipple-and-belly-button breastplates.
I was under the impression that the nipple-and-belly-button breastplates were reserved for their glorious procession on the way back into Rome and for other ceremonial uses (such as posing for the sculptor), but I may be wrong.
but regardless, examples of style-over-substance are plentiful even in history...
Yep you are wrong pec and 6 pack armour was used in combat..... The only problem with it was that it was heavy and the Romans swapped from using breastplates to chain, after stealing the idea from the Celts and the Greeks went from breastplates to Linothorax which were made of laminated cloth.
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The major problem with the OPs premise is he is trying to shape the armor around the boobs....
1. You make the armor like you would for a man allowing for a little extra room for tightly bound breasts.
2. If you are worried about the sturnum (not an issue now because it's a standard suit but we should cater for paranoia) you add strip of steal as a cross brace for that part of the chest. It worked for the Romans when the Thracians were carving through their standard issue helmets and splitting their heads in two with the Romphia/falx, the Romans added extra bracing and kicked arse.
If you are sticking your boobs either side of a central metal strip to fit into a bra-like cup, you are an idiot and you get what is coming to you. No armorsmith would make something like that.
3. You tac, weld, bolt on idealised breasts, you design them to either crumple like a modern car and slow down the impact or slope them to direct blows away from the vital areas like modern tanks. Because they did that in the past anyway.
The problem here is that modern people hold themselves to be superior in every way to people in the past..... People from the past are just as smart as us.
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Please try not to get History in my Fantasy. I like beautiful, full figured women in armor. I like it, and there are very few things left that I can hold onto that keep me from putting a gun in my mouth.
DON'T YOU BE PUTTING GUNS IN MY FANTASY!
YOU MANGA WUXIA NARUTO KIDS AND YOUR DAMN STEAMPUNK!
At least they're upgrading from bikinimail.
At least they're upgrading from bikinimail.
I am going to disagree with you on this ... He is why.
The author fails to take into account the one benefit of the design: distracting the opponent.
This this was the logic, she would be better off to go "All In" with a chainmail bikini.
Given the OP's original article, at bikini might actually be "less dangerous." Boobplate's vulnerable spot is almost like not having any breast plate on at all - but she would still be carrying the weight.
A chainmail bikini at least is nearly weightless, so at least does not hinder her dodging.
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I am definitely not part of the "pro-realism" faction when it comes to fantasy gaming.
I think you will find that a lot of the pro realism side are anti grim reality when it comes to the social and health side of things.
There is considerable cherry picking from the trees on the moral high ground.
I think you will find that a lot of the pro realism side are anti grim reality when it comes to the social and health side of things.
There is considerable cherry picking from the trees on the moral high ground.
DO you know this because you're in that camp? Or are you just making up stuff to make the "other side" look bad?
DO you know this because you're in that camp? Or are you just making up stuff to make the "other side" look bad?I think you will find that a lot of the pro realism side are anti grim reality when it comes to the social and health side of things.
There is considerable cherry picking from the trees on the moral high ground.
I'm in the if you and your players are having fun, then you are doing it right camp.
A lot of the people here who have argued for realism in he case of armour have argued against it for other aspects of the game.
I think you will find that a lot of the pro realism side are anti grim reality when it comes to the social and health side of things.
There is considerable cherry picking from the trees on the moral high ground.
You mean, things like ...
... I could go on ...
I really have a simple solution to this.
I like armor with breats...I describe my awesomely beautiful female warrior with as this.
You find it unrealistic. You ignore my desciption of the large breasts on her armor...you just picture the character in armor you find acceptable.
Both are happy...this probably won't ever come up in game....it is superficial at best.
(Note: I do not neccessarily support armor with breast...that was just a example)
I really have a simple solution to this.
I like armor with breats...I describe my awesomely beautiful female warrior with as this.
You find it unrealistic. You ignore my desciption of the large breasts on her armor...you just picture the character in armor you find acceptable.
You mean?I really have a simple solution to this.
I like armor with breats...I describe my awesomely beautiful female warrior with as this.
You find it unrealistic. You ignore my desciption of the large breasts on her armor...you just picture the character in armor you find acceptable.
No...though I liked that picture...*drool*...that is just Glamnoured armor with Charming(from 3.0) on it right?
What I mean is even with the same desciption two people will have a differment mental image in their minds of the game(heck two people can both see the same thing in RL and disagree with what it is). I am saying embrace this and not cause a fight over something that means very little in the game.
No...though I liked that picture...*drool*...that is just Glamnoured armor with Charming(from 3.0) on it right?You mean?I really have a simple solution to this.
I like armor with breats...I describe my awesomely beautiful female warrior with as this.
You find it unrealistic. You ignore my desciption of the large breasts on her armor...you just picture the character in armor you find acceptable.
Nope. I am just taking what you said "you just picture the character in armor you find acceptable" to its logical conclusion.
It works both ways (but up and down the realism scale).
I'm in the if you and your players are having fun, then you are doing it right camp.A lot of the people here who have argued for realism in he case of armour have argued against it for other aspects of the game.
I don't think this thread is about "all realism all the time." It's about a guy who think boob armour is kinda stupid and who then gives an example of how it would probably work if you actually build one. The issue I personally take with boob armour is that I usually see it used as an example of a realistic alternative to the chainmail bikini/boob window/whatever. It's really not. No one here is calling you a bad person if you like that kind of thing. Just realize it's no less of a sexified fantasy trope than the plate mail thong.
Of course, if you're a mighty hero with more gold coins than sense it may be entirely plausible for you to have a boob-shaped custom armour designed. There's no reason women can't be as silly as the guy with the 2' codpiece. But your average city guard or army grunt would probably not wear boob armour unless you get uncomfortable if you can't tell a person's gender at a glance (or if, for whatever reason, it's important for the kind of world you've designed).
I think the bottom line is that there's no practical reason for a boob-shaped breastplate baring exceptional circumstances. But you don't need a practical reason to look awesome... so that's fine, just don't try to disguise it as something it isn't. :)
I think the bottom line is that there's no practical reason for a boob-shaped breastplate baring exceptional circumstances.
You mean like ceremonial or parade armor? (... with the attendant penalties since it is not intended to be used in combat)
The issue I personally take with boob armour is that I usually see it used as an example of a realistic alternative to the chainmail bikini/boob window/whatever. It's really not.
It is actually less realistic.
Of course, once we get into spectator sports, it's an entirely different kettle of fish.
It is actually less realistic.Of course, once we get into spectator sports, it's an entirely different kettle of fish.
True. :)
B.T.W.: This may be the earliest example of deliberate "sexualization" of female warriors. :)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No...though I liked that picture...*drool*...that is just Glamnoured armor with Charming(from 3.0) on it right?You mean?I really have a simple solution to this.
I like armor with breats...I describe my awesomely beautiful female warrior with as this.
You find it unrealistic. You ignore my desciption of the large breasts on her armor...you just picture the character in armor you find acceptable.
Nope. I am just taking what you said "you just picture the character in armor you find acceptable" to its logical conclusion.
It works both ways (but up and down the realism scale).
Hey whatever floats your boat. As long I don't have to hear a arguement lasting 5 hours on realistic armor...I am all good.
As long I don't have to hear a arguement lasting 5 hours on realistic armor...I am all good.
Deal. On the condition that you won't be describing your character's breasts for five hours, either. ;)
As long I don't have to hear a arguement lasting 5 hours on realistic armor...I am all good.Deal. On the condition that you won't be describing your character's breasts for five hours, either. ;)
Sorry. I cannot except that proposition. ;P
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More to the OP's original point, this is actually about PAIZO's art direction.
... and ...
"But I like “sexualized, scantily clad heroines” in my gaming entertainment."
But he'd be quite open to any other...propositions I'm sure.
But he'd be quite open to any other...propositions I'm sure.
What?
You are being too subtle. I don't understand what you mean.
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As long I don't have to hear a arguement lasting 5 hours on realistic armor...I am all good.Deal. On the condition that you won't be describing your character's breasts for five hours, either. ;)
There is a reason why I don't go into insane detail about my characters....I just give a general idea and let the others fill in the image in their own heads...because in the end that is what they will do anyway.
I'm not certain about this, but as I understand it, if you are playing make believe, fantasy trumps reality every time.Not when it's a shared make-believe and your fantasy messes with the enjoyment of everyone else at the table.
You know, the reverse is also true. When your "realism" messes with the enjoyment of everyone else at the table, can also be a problem.
You know, the reverse is also true. When your "realism" messes with the enjoyment of everyone else at the table, can also be a problem.
Having a couple of Physics majors in your gaming group can derail things quick. :)
Preferably, everyone at the table should be on roughly the same page.
You know, the reverse is also true. When your "realism" messes with the enjoyment of everyone else at the table, can also be a problem.Having a couple of Physics majors in your gaming group can derail things quick. :)
Preferably, everyone at the table should be on roughly the same page.
Harder to do then it sounds. :(
Harder to do then it sounds. :(You know, the reverse is also true. When your "realism" messes with the enjoyment of everyone else at the table, can also be a problem.Having a couple of Physics majors in your gaming group can derail things quick. :)
Preferably, everyone at the table should be on roughly the same page.
don't I know it.
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Forget realism. I think boob armor is ugly. I mean, it really looks pants on head dumb, funny looking. Also, only my personal aesthetics are correct, because I say so, and Paizo's art direction should follow only my personal aesthetics. (I feel like I can say this because that seems to be everyone else's assumption about their own personal aesthetics as well.)
Or we could just trust them to make the best judgements they can about such things on a case by case basis, but that would be silly.
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Someone just needs to stat up boob armor so we have a mechanical reference point.
Boob Armor
Medium Armor - Weight 22lbs - Armor Bonus +5 - ACP-4 - Move Speed 20' (15') - Arcane Spell Failure 25% - Cost 250gp - Impractical Quality
This armor was designed by armorsmiths seeking to enhance the female form during combat, and because they were paid a lot of money to do it. The armor costs more than the superior breastplate because, well, boobs.
Impractical Quality
The basic premise of this armor's design is flawed. Attack rolls to confirm critical hits against this armor gain a +2 bonus.
To be honest, it's not really even a Paizo thing—we generally give our artists a lot of freedom, as we find that usually gets us better results. Dictating armor design on every piece of art is just not the best place to spend our effort.
Well, that too. :)
I think if I'm playing a game and a player is taking steps to describe how his character's armor emphasizes the breasts, or asks if other characters' armor does, we are going to have more significant problems.
Forget realism. I think boob armor is ugly. I mean, it really looks pants on head dumb, funny looking. Also, only my personal aesthetics are correct, because I say so, and Paizo's art direction should follow only my personal aesthetics. (I feel like I can say this because that seems to be everyone else's assumption about their own personal aesthetics as well.)
I think that's a tad unfair. People who, like myself, voice unpopular opinions can have some influence. It's not that we expect Paizo to cater only to our opinions, excluding all others. But the knowledge that some people have those opinions can combine with other factors.
Just to use your opinion as an example, maybe some of Paizo's artists, and other fantasy artists, will read your message that boob armor is ugly. If those artists are sitting on the fence about whether to draw boob armor in this picture here, and that picture there, they might take your opinion into consideration, resulting in fewer pictures with such armor.
And maybe when you post "Boob armor is ugly," other people who feel the same way might feel encouraged to post their agreement, thus gathering MORE influence.
In short, hoping to have our voices heard is different from expecting everyone to obey our decrees. There are plenty of us who do only the former.
And you never know. Once every blue moon, Paizo might decide to follow a minority opinion. It's rare, but it happens. Since it costs you nothing to post your opinion, what's the harm in trying, and hoping?
(EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that boob-armor-haters are necessarily in the minority. I was only SUPPOSING they were, just to use DeathQuaker's opinion as an example.)
I think if I'm playing a game and a player is taking steps to describe how his character's armor emphasizes the breasts, or asks if other characters' armor does, we are going to have more significant problems.Would you still have those problems if a female player were the one saying that her character's armor emphasized her breasts? (I ask because you said "his character" in your post.)
The implication I was going for was that this person is constantly inquiring about PV and NPC breasts they are probably looking for a type of game I, and my regular players, are not interested in having.
I'm not interested in running a sex-focused game regardless of the gender identity or orientation of the person requesting it, if that is what you want to know.
The implication I was going for was that this person is constantly inquiring about PV and NPC breasts they are probably looking for a type of game I, and my regular players, are not interested in having.That implication wasn't understood by me.
I've had at least one female player who, when asked to describe her character, made mention of her PC's breast size. It wasn't salacious, and it wasn't a recurring topic - rather, when telling everyone what her character looked like, she made sure to mention that her character had big boobs. (Though, to be fair, there was no mention of the shape of her armor.)
Your post made it sound like that was the sort of thing that you'd take great offense at.
(Also, for what it's worth, some people prefer to run their game as an erotically-charged sexventure.)
The keyword being "constantly" and the reference to other character's breasts, not just the player's own. Referring to breasts period is not a concern.
My witch certainly has no problems emphasizing how really really really really ridiculously good-looking he is. Boobs don't really factor in, however, since he works out, bro
Forget realism. I think boob armor is ugly. I mean, it really looks pants on head dumb, funny looking. Also, only my personal aesthetics are correct, because I say so, and Paizo's art direction should follow only my personal aesthetics. (I feel like I can say this because that seems to be everyone else's assumption about their own personal aesthetics as well.)I think that's a tad unfair. People who, like myself, voice unpopular opinions can have some influence. It's not that we expect Paizo to cater only to our opinions, excluding all others. But the knowledge that some people have those opinions can combine with other factors.
Just to use your opinion as an example, maybe some of Paizo's artists, and other fantasy artists, will read your message that boob armor is ugly. If those artists are sitting on the fence about whether to draw boob armor in this picture here, and that picture there, they might take your opinion into consideration, resulting in fewer pictures with such armor.
And maybe when you post "Boob armor is ugly," other people who feel the same way might feel encouraged to post their agreement, thus gathering MORE influence.
In short, hoping to have our voices heard is different from expecting everyone to obey our decrees. There are plenty of us who do only the former.
And you never know. Once every blue moon, Paizo might decide to follow a minority opinion. It's rare, but it happens. Since it costs you nothing to post your opinion, what's the harm in trying, and hoping?
(EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying that boob-armor-haters are necessarily in the minority. I was only SUPPOSING they were, just to use DeathQuaker's opinion as an example.)
Vic Wertz posted above that they give artistic license to their artists, and leave it largely at that.
I think you are reading waaaay too much into what was a largely jokey post and what its effects could be.
I DO think boob armor is ugly, but that IS just my opinion and it holds about as much weight as that of any other random stranger's on the Internet, which is to say absolutely none at all. If you truly think anything I said here or in any post has any chance of influencing what Paizo does, I will laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh, and were you a real human sitting in front of me, I would do it loudly in your face, because dude, seriously with all due respect, but that is some serious crazy talk.
At least they're upgrading from bikinimail.I am going to disagree with you on this ... He is why.
The author fails to take into account the one benefit of the design: distracting the opponent.This this was the logic, she would be better off to go "All In" with a chainmail bikini.
Until you fight your first female, gay, or not interested humanoid, or your first monster.