Grapple MK Style Question

[knightpredator]

I am relatively new to PF and wanted to make sure this build works like I think and is legal. This has a very Scorpion feel which is what I am going for.

Human Lone Warden Lvl 9

Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Exotic Weapon: Rope Dart
Combat Reflexes
Combat Expertise
Improved Grapple
Improved Trip
Power Attack
Quick Draw
Greater Grapple
Greater Trip
Hamatula Strike
Rapid Grappler

Now as I read the feats and rules here is how I am thinking an encounter might go. Versus Gnoll Ranger (Legacy of Fire AP)

Gnoll starts 20 feet away. Initiative, I win.

I quick draw my rope dart and throw it. Score a hit and deal damage.

Hamatula Strike goes off, I attempt a grapple check at -4 and succeed.

Gnoll is moved adjacent to me, per the grapple rules.

Using Greater Grapple, I can now attempt to pin the Gnoll; Success.

Now Rapid Grappler, I attempt to tie up the gnoll, using the rope (rope dart) and once again succeed.

Gnolls turn, he attempts to break free from the ropes and fails.

I now quick draw my Heavy Pick and perform a Coup d'Grace.

This sounds really great in theory craft, however I just want to make sure this is legal and how it works.

Thanks

[Khaleb]

Hi Knightpredator,

Being tied doesn't give the Gnoll the helpless condition, so you can't coup de grâce him.

Quote:

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD).

[knightpredator]

Khaleb wrote:

Hi Knightpredator,

Being tied doesn't give the Gnoll the helpless condition, so you can't coup de grâce him.

Quote:

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD).

This is what I found on the SRD and was going off that.

A creature that is tied up is "bound" which means it has the Helpless condition. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

[Khaleb]

You're right, I had never noticed the "bound" word in the helpless condition description.
I was misinterpreting the "This works like a pin effect" part of the "Tie up" rules.
It seems legit to me (and quite logical if you think about it).

[knightpredator]

Awesome, Thanks!

[jakebacon]

Looks like you don't take the -4 to the grapple check when you first hit with the rope dart. The -4 from Hamatula strike is only when attempting to deal damage with the impaling weapon. That means you have an even better chance of impaling them initially and you don't take the penalty when trying to tie them up, either.

I've always wanted to use the rope dart in a build. This is the most creative use I've seen for it. I'm going to have to make a note of this build and try it in my next game.

[jakebacon]

Hmm. I reread Greater Grapple and it seems the move action grapple check is when you maintain the grapple, implying only on subsequent rounds. Some GMs might interpret that as not being possible in the round you initiated the grapple with Hamatula Strike. Anyone else see it that way or am I reading too much into it?

[Mike Lindner]

jakebacon wrote:

Looks like you don't take the -4 to the grapple check when you first hit with the rope dart. The -4 from Hamatula strike is only when attempting to deal damage with the impaling weapon. That means you have an even better chance of impaling them initially and you don't take the penalty when trying to tie them up, either.

I've always wanted to use the rope dart in a build. This is the most creative use I've seen for it. I'm going to have to make a note of this build and try it in my next game.

CRB Combat chapter wrote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

The -4 is not from Hamatula Strike.

jakebacon wrote:

Hmm. I reread Greater Grapple and it seems the move action grapple check is when you maintain the grapple, implying only on subsequent rounds. Some GMs might interpret that as not being possible in the round you initiated the grapple with Hamatula Strike. Anyone else see it that way or am I reading too much into it?

CRB wrote:

Greater Grapple

You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple.

After having grappled the creature using a standard action, you can then maintain the grapple as a move action (making another CMB check with a +5 bonus [and the -4 for not having ones hands free] as normal for maintaining a grapple). Upon doing so you can choose the pin action rather than dealing damage.

[TheSideKick]

ok so hamatula strike is a very very poorly worded feat that is a very very misleading as to how it works.

"Benefit: Whenever you damage an opponent with a piercing weapon, you can immediately make a grapple check; success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition. While the opponent is impaled, as an attack action you may make a grapple check on your turn at a -4 penalty to damage the opponent with your weapon, even if your weapon cannot normally be used in a grapple. "

ok so the feat clearly defines what happens when you make the check, "success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition" it DOES NOT SAY you are grappling the target, so the rules for hamatula strike SUPERSEDES the rules for a normal grapple. so basically this feat does nothing but apply the grappled condition , not create a grapple as in a standard action combat maneuver.

its a great feat that is poorly worded and causes a ton of confusion.

[knightpredator]

TheSideKick wrote:

ok so hamatula strike is a very very poorly worded feat that is a very very misleading as to how it works.

"Benefit: Whenever you damage an opponent with a piercing weapon, you can immediately make a grapple check; success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition. While the opponent is impaled, as an attack action you may make a grapple check on your turn at a -4 penalty to damage the opponent with your weapon, even if your weapon cannot normally be used in a grapple. "

ok so the feat clearly defines what happens when you make the check, "success means the opponent is impaled on your weapon and you both gain the grappled condition" it DOES NOT SAY you are grappling the target, so the rules for hamatula strike SUPERSEDES the rules for a normal grapple. so basically this feat does nothing but apply the grappled condition , not create a grapple as in a standard action combat maneuver.

its a great feat that is poorly worded and causes a ton of confusion.

The part that makes me think you are grappling after the strike is the normal description:

Normal: You can only attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against opponents you are GRAPPLING.

[TheSideKick]

Right, ive had this same discussion with 30 other people on the boards, as well as in RL. No one could make heads or tails about how this feat was supposed to work, but i guess the guy who wrote the feat made a post somewhere a year or more ago. I havent ever found the quote so play it how you want to, but this is how i was told the feat works.

which i agree with when used with a reach or ranged weapon, a non reach melee weapons is a little different IMO.