So, I'm thinking about getting into some society play. I've been looking at making something that might be welcome in a majority of groups without going full spellcaster (been playing nothing but full casters in my other groups). So far, its looking like paladin.
My plan with the character is (get ready to laugh) a more reactionary playstyle than proactive, focusing mainly on melee combat and (I must be going crazy) healing.
Since I'm new to society play, I figured I'd ask you guys for some tips on this one.
Human Paladin
Stat Array:
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 9
Cha 16 (+2 Human for 18 total)
Tanked the int because I'm not going for a skill focused build, and with human racial 2 skillpoints/lvl should get me most of what I need to qualify for things.
Traits: Magical knack, <open slot>
Want what spells I have to have increased effect/duration for later levels
Feat selection:
1 Fey Foundling (all that delicious bonus to lay on hands healing)
Human Power Attack
3 Greater Mercy/Extra Lay on Hands (I can't decide on this one - Will I need more uses/day with this setup or will I need that extra dice of healing?)
5 Selective channel
7 Extra channel/quick channel (This one is going to depend largly on my 3rd feat choice - quickened if I picked up extra LoH, extra channel if I grab Greater Mercy)
9 <open slot>
11 <open slot>
So I plan on spending my lower levels like a chump fighter smiting when I can, hopefully getting good use of lay on hands.
By the time I get first level spells I plan on using things like heroes defiance, compel hostility, challenge evil, and knights calling. Was reading that there are a majority of humanoid enemies in society play, so I assumed a good number of mind affecting spells would work well.
The main goal of this setup is to somehow survive until level 7, when I can get 2nd level spells. The plan is to use shield other with a lesser metamagic rod of reach, and with the magical knack trait have it last a good 6 hours. Will be investing in pearls of power to free up other 2nd level slots as money comes in.
I'm thinking best case scenario, my turn is a standard SMASH AND SMITE with a swift healing thats going to be doing 3-8hp/2 levels.
Worst case scenario: Dragon breaths on party doing tons of damage. 50% of each guys damage gets redirected to me. I use heroes defiance, stand right back up. My turn utilize a quick channel as a move and a standard channel. And pray it doesn't get its breath weapon ready again soon. Could also declare smite just for some dodge bonus to ac.
Things I'm unsure about/debating on changing:
-Is shield other combined with heroes defiance going to be enough to keep me standing when everybody gets hit by fireball-esque moves? I'm unsure what level of damage society encounters put out.
-Switching my STR and DEX scores and play it with a ranged weapon. Really feat starved for ranged feats, but might work for later levels.
-Switching my STR and CON scores and taking a level in unbreakable fighter, and getting fast healer instead of power attack. Toss on a belt of +2 con for a total CON of 18 so my LoH works for +2 hp (minor) and a wand of infernal healing to save me LoH uses (fast healer+18con+infernal healing=30hp out of combat healing per cast). Might be too ineffective at damage, mainly considered out of concern for cost of consumables (was reading they are a big deal in society play)
-Those level 9 and 11 feat slots. Theres a few choices I could take (pick up the feats I didn't take at 3 and 7), but wasn't sure if I should be doing something like improved critical instead.
-The 2nd trait: Wayang spellhunter (I think thats the correct trait name) Regional trait to reduce metamagic cost by 1. Is heighten with metamagic reducer cheese to drop the spell level allowed in PFS? I've seen the forum post, but nothing in official faqs.
-I'm aware of the life oracle, the idea behind this build is I'm doing a similar thing-I'm extending everybody elses hitpoints and getting MUCH more use of LoH, wider range for more tactical positioning, and other options in combat for damage. Life oracle might be able to do this better (haven't really mathed it) but I am looking for something that isn't a full caster.
-Archetypes: I was considering Sacred Servant for the domain powers/divine bond options, but only if I wont be starved for smites. Am I going to get multiple chances to smite in society play? How many encounters per module should I expect?
There's a lot to comment on here so I'll try and hit a few points...
I wouldn't try and make a paladin and in combat healer if I had the choice, unless it was healing yourself for action economy reasons. Just carry a wand for backup. Infernal healing is the best bang for your buck but... Its infernal healing.
Always carry a bow for backup. You want to build yourself around a bow if your going to use one for primary, its very feat intensive.
In society play you can smite almost everything. Its hard to find something that isn't evil, undead are everywhere, and the next season is all about demons I've been told. Look into oath of vengeance if you want to be smite happy, but its at the cost of healing which I don't think you'll be big on.
I'm playing a Tiefling Hospitaler Paladin right now in a home game, and I'm a ridiculously good healer. I took Fae Foundling, Greater Mercy, and put all my favored class bonuses in the Tiefling ability, so, at level 8, my LoH heals me for 5d6+18 as a swift action--and yes, I do Shield Other all the time.
I feel like Quick Channel is a must. It lets me still make an attack while healing. If really necessary, I can throw out two channels and LoH myself in one turn. It is frequently claimed that damage outpaces damage in Pathfinder, but I have not found that to be the case for me, yet.
The only real downside I've come across so far is that I can't cast Restoration yet, and I can't remove Curses until level 9 with LoH, while a Cleric would have been able to at 7th and 5th. So, I'm a great healer--I'd even argue I can heal more HP faster and more efficiently than even a Life Oracle (which I'm playing in another game, actually), but I am not so great at helping with the longer term nastiness we're starting to face (level and ability drain, curses, etc.).
I suppose I could just as easily drop the channeling feats and use Lay on Hands with shield other and not heal others. That might work better and save me feats. I guess it all depends on the average damage output in society play. Is it EXTREME DAMAGE MODE, or is it actually average cr stuff?
I suppose I could just as easily drop the channeling feats and use Lay on Hands with shield other and not heal others. That might work better and save me feats. I guess it all depends on the average damage output in society play. Is it EXTREME DAMAGE MODE, or is it actually average cr stuff?
Season 4 has many fights that some people consider to be ridiculous for their CR. That's another thread entirely. The others have a bit of lax, and missions all over tend to vary from place to place.
My major advice for PFS is to remember first level rebuilds and remember if your build doesn't become awesome until later you still have to plow through all the missions up to it. Unless your using GM credit of course.
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My advice is: be careful with channeling as a paladin. I don't know all the archetypes, but at 2 lay on hands per use, you run out quickly. Also, note that quick channeling costs double. It would seem your staying power as a healer would drop down quickly.
In society play, you are likely to have several combats in a session. Some tough, some not so tough. My order of vengeance paladin is seeing a need to get the feat extra lay on hands several times, even with no channeling.
My advice is: be careful with channeling as a paladin. I don't know all the archetypes, but at 2 lay on hands per use, you run out quickly. Also, note that quick channeling costs double. It would seem your staying power as a healer would drop down quickly.
Hospitalers get Channeling separate from Lay On Hands. I use Quick Channel just about every combat.
I didn't consider Hospitaler, mainly because you channel energy for much less than a normal paladin. I get that you get more uses, but I'd imagine with this setup if I have to channel I'd want it to count if I'm giving up a standard or move action for it. That and the reduced uses of smite was a turn off.
If i gave up channeling altogether, going oath of vengeance would be what I'd trade it for. That would free up the feats for other things.
With what I've got currently, at level 5 I would have 10 lay on hands per day (cha 18 with a +4 cha headband and extra lay on hands feat). Potentially more with the item that increases lay on hands uses (forgotten the name of it)
If i quick channeled it would cost 4 uses of lay on hands (2 to channel, double for making it quick). By the time quick channeling comes into play, I'd have about 11-13 uses of lay on hands a day (6 from stats, 2 from feat, 3 from levels, +2 from item potentially). By then using 4 lay on hands to save a few people after a fireball seems reasonable. Not for everyday use, but the option would be there if the group needed it. And I could still use a standard to channel for 2 uses if I run low.
Anybody have any opinions on traits? I'm still not sure if wayang spellhunter is kosher, and if it isn't I'm not sure what trait to take. Maybe one to up my reflex save?
Skip channeling as a (non-Hospitaler) Paladin.
So even though its for a reduced effect, just the fact that I can channel more often its superior to a standard paladins channeling? And worth trading smite uses for? Can you elaborate a little more on your advice please?
Please forgive me if this is something that should be painfully obvious to me, just wanna make sure I understand.
So even though its for a reduced effect, just the fact that I can channel more often its superior to a standard paladins channeling? And worth trading smite uses for? Can you elaborate a little more on your advice please?
Please forgive me if this is something that should be painfully obvious to me, just wanna make sure I understand.
Whether it's better than smiting or not is not a question I can answer for you. It certainly was for me, as I purposefully wanted to be the party's healer and I still hit like a truck with my glaive and Power Attack (I'm the party's second heaviest hitter after the Two-Handed Fighter).
As to why more channels are better than bigger channels, it's just a matter of total dice of healing.
If you had 22 Charisma as you suggested, you'd get 10 Lay on Hands at level 8, which, with Great Mercy, would translate to 5d6 LoH 10x per day, OR 4d6 channeling 5 times per day.
As a Hospitaler, it's 5d6 LoH 10x per day, AND 3d6 channeling 9 times per day. It's kind of a huge advantage.
INT is important because you value Unsanctioned Knowledge. Staple feat for paladins.
Human is a good race, I prefer the versatile variant so I can have an 18 STR by lvl 4 as well as CHA.
Focusing on channeling won't get you far as a paladin, unless you want to be focused on it, in which case your stats are meh.
Personal builds:
STR 15
DEX 12
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 7
CHA 15
with versatile human putting +2 into STR and CHA
lvl 4 bumps STR and lvl 8 bumps either CON or CHA, depending on what you care about more.
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INT is important because you value Unsanctioned Knowledge. Staple feat for paladins.
Human is a good race, I prefer the versatile variant so I can have an 18 STR by lvl 4 as well as CHA.
Focusing on channeling won't get you far as a paladin, unless you want to be focused on it, in which case your stats are meh.
Personal builds:STR 15
DEX 12
CON 15
INT 13
WIS 7
CHA 15with versatile human putting +2 into STR and CHA
lvl 4 bumps STR and lvl 8 bumps either CON or CHA, depending on what you care about more.
Some of your advice is very good. A 13 intelligence for Unsanctioned Knowledge is a great investment for a point-buy system like Society, and the extra skill points don't hurt either!
However, I cannot agree with taking the Dual Talent alternate racial trait as a paladin. You are giving up everything that makes a human great and everything that a paladin lacks (namely, a free feat and skill point per level) for a measly +2 to a stat. For a 1/2 or 3/4 BAB class that's almost a fair trade, as you have more skills and have less feats to choose from at level 1. For a paladin? You will never have enough feats to do everything you want to do, and 2 skills/level is really difficult for a skill focused environment like PFS.
I would suggest a point-buy similar to yours (racial +2 into strength):
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 14;
alternatively, switch the racial bonus into charisma for more balance. If you're not planning on taking Unsanctioned Knowledge, drop wisdom to 7 and grab a 14 constitution and a 12 intellect.
What feats do you feel you are lacking? I always felt like I had enough while being able to tailor my stats to what I want. Beyond power attack, and maybe fey foundling, seems like you are just feat hungry, which happens, but if you ever ask "what should I do with this feat"then you probably don't need it. The improved INT gives you access to more skill ranks than if you dumped it, even with the human skill. Paladins in particular typically aren't feat starved unless there's a very specific build you are aiming at. Most people on these boards just take extra lay on hands over and over again, if that puts perspective on how truly important all those feats are.
I'm also playing a Hospitaler and so far (almost lvl 9) its been very effective. Shield other and LoH does well in combat and the channel is great for post combat healing (we don't have good access to magic shops currently in our campaign so using loads of wands is not practical).
I get to blow up two evil things
per day and otherwise do nice damage with a falchion without overly hogging the limelight. We also have a non-healing focused oracle who can cast restoration and the occasional ranged heal which helps vs heavy stat drain encounters.
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What feats do you feel you are lacking? I always felt like I had enough while being able to tailor my stats to what I want. Beyond power attack, and maybe fey foundling, seems like you are just feat hungry, which happens, but if you ever ask "what should I do with this feat"then you probably don't need it. The improved INT gives you access to more skill ranks than if you dumped it, even with the human skill. Paladins in particular typically aren't feat starved unless there's a very specific build you are aiming at. Most people on these boards just take extra lay on hands over and over again, if that puts perspective on how truly important all those feats are.
In no particular order:
-Fey Foundling
-Power Attack
-Greater Mercy
-Ultimate Mercy
-Unsanctioned Knowledge
-Improved Initiative
-Extra Lay on Hands
-Lunge
-Dazing Assault
None of those are specific in my opinion, and a human paladin in PFS still only gets seven of them. If you DO want something specific (Spring Attack, Vital Strike, Combat Reflexes, etc.), then you're in even more trouble. I haven't even thrown in Weapon Focus or Furious Focus, and I see those on paladins quite a bit.
Power Attack, Fey Foundling, and Improved Initiative are the only feats that could be taken with your human bonus feat on that list. Personally, I feel a build doesn't need either, mainly because I expect my caster to have Improved Init already and Fey Foundling requires a specific backstory.
I'd rather have better overall stats, but that's just me.
Wow, you guys are awesome. Tons of help here, thanks!
@MPL: So you are actually using the channeling out of combat frequently? I figured everybody was providing their own wands of clw/infernal healing for after combat healing, what with getting them for 2 prestige instead of gold (unless prestige is not as easy to come by as I thought- is it?)
@Marshmallow: Unsanctioned knowledge is nice, but again, I'm more of looking to not go with quite so many spells this time around. I'm still going through the spell lists though, and I am definitely seeing some spells I'd like to pick up (heroism, blur, grease). I hadn't really considered dropping the bonus feat/skills for another +2 ability score bonus. I guess if I decide to give up on channeling altogether it might be worth it then, but I'm not 100% there yet. What would you recommend for unsanctioned knowledge as far as society play is concerned?
@Mergy: I'm liking how some of my feat choices line up with yours, so at least I've been doing SOMETHING right with my setup. Dazing assault I'm not sold on though, what with the level you get it at and how its reducing my chance to hit (which already will be a few points behind because STR isn't the primary focus of the build). Again I guess this depends on how the CR/monster stats scale out in adventures? Wasn't considering improved initiative at all: generally I prefer the full casters go first to set things up. I'll have the 1st level spells I mentioned in my original post for those situations when they don't get to go first. This sound like a smart idea?
I figured everybody was providing their own wands of clw/infernal healing for after combat healing, what with getting them for 2 prestige instead of gold (unless prestige is not as easy to come by as I thought- is it?)
Its super easy. In PFS your likely to have at least one person in the party with a wand of infernal healing and CLW. Watch out for GMs who don't think you should use the infernal healing without question your paladinhood(Infernal healing can't make you fall). You get 2 PP per mission usually and your expected to have around 3/4ish success rate on your Faction mission(which determines your 2nd PP per mission). Getting nearly 100% with one of my characters let me pile up wands of all sorts and for many different reasons. Was nifty!
Power Attack, Fey Foundling, and Improved Initiative are the only feats that could be taken with your human bonus feat on that list. Personally, I feel a build doesn't need either, mainly because I expect my caster to have Improved Init already and Fey Foundling requires a specific backstory.
I'd rather have better overall stats, but that's just me.
I embraced a similar philosophy with my just-made paladin for an upcoming Kingmaker campaign. Well, technically, that's not yet true; I'm spending 1st level as a Dragoon then switching to pally. I just had to stop thinking in terms of what he wouldn't be able to do and focus on the concept. For me, that's a lot of the fun. This is undoubtedly easier for home play. I've never participated in PFS.
Have you considered the dwarven racial paladin archetype, Stonelord? In terms of one the pally's best roles, the tank (always good to have a tank), the Stonelord is pretty great. Although, if you like the traditional paladin feel, the Stonelord isn't it. I sort of think of it as: a Paladin is to Cleric as a Stonelord is to a Dwarven Druid.
@MPL: So you are actually using the channeling out of combat frequently? I figured everybody was providing their own wands of clw/infernal healing for after combat healing, what with getting them for 2 prestige instead of gold (unless prestige is not as easy to come by as I thought- is it?)
Oh, no, I don't play PFS. I didn't think it would be so different that my experiences and advice would not apply, though.